Kansasdad

Ok so what is the punishment, We have our sins forgiven by grace through faith, we die, we are judged by our works, we go to heaven. Is there a part of heaven that is less wonderful than other parts? or conversely is there punishment (hell) that is less horrible than other parts of hell, or maybe only temporary, Is this part of the whole purgatory concept. ( And please no Chatholic bashing here ) God Bless Kansas Dad

Through out the Bible God talks about his judgment. God will judge all man. What is God judging us about? Is it simply to judge whether we believed in Jesus or not? I.e.: John you believed in Jesus go here, Paul you didn

This thought just accrued to me. I was reading a post from Trust and Obey. He was telling his testimony, a fantastic story of when he was 19. He was living a world of pleasure and sin and enjoying every moment of it. But God called to him, he fought it, but God won in the end (funny how God does that ) His transformation was dramatic, and overwhelming. But it is a world apart from mine. I was raised in a Christian family. We went to church, studied at the church, went to youth bible study (youth group) fellowshipped with other Christian families. I cannot think of a time in my life when I did not believe in Jesus Christ, or when I did not live my life in that belief. Not that I haven

No mention of salvation here. I only see a mention of the definition of true faith. Moses faith motivated him not to stay with Pharaoh. Doesn't really support what you want it to Just showing scripture about mans ability to choose. We can choose to follow God or we can choose not to. This is not talking about salvation, it is talking about a person who was healed of a sickness that had lasted 38 years and was brought on by sin. No indication that the person was saved. Only that they were healed. Jesus warned them not to sin again, or the condition could return No what he says is sin no more because there are afflictions much worse than afflictions of the flesh. He does not say his condition will return, he says it will be much worse. Again God is telling us that our sins have consequences much worse than what we know of the flesh. Please provide a citation so I can get a context John 3:15

Sin, Salvation, Grace. Hebrews 11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. John 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. These verses speak directly to the issue of sin and the believer. Clearly God will judge us if we continue to live in sin after we have the knowledge of truth, our punishment will be severe. It also clearly establishes that man can draw away from God and the consequences of that are not good. Furthermore it clearly establishes that by our works

Ok just so I am clear (sorry thick headed) A truly saved child molester goes to heaven just as a truly saved gossip goes to heaven. Correct? Kansasdad I will post again, But I will need to spend some time with it.

You are right we can not know what is in a mans heart. But just so I can get some understanding of what you are saying. For the purpose of discussion lets say the man was saved. Gods Graces was given to him, he acdepted it, he was transformed and born again. #1 I can see two possibilities from your prespective. If a person is committing grevious sins (child molesting) there is no way they could have been truley saved in the first place therefore not saved, no Grace. Therefore anyone who is committing terrible sins was never truley saved in the first place. OR #2 They were truley saved in the first place and a saved Child molester (molesting children after being saved) will go to heaven anyway? If you can't agree with this than #1 has to be true. Is there another posibility? Thanks: Kansas Dad

Please forgive me I am not trying to be difficult. but you stated " But scripture does teach: 1. We come by faith 2. True faith produces works 3. You cannot lose salvation once it has truly occurred " So by #3 Once saved Always saved? So either The person was never saved in the first place and therefore is not going to heaven or he was saved and he is going to heaven regardless of his sins. Is that an accurate statement? Kansas Dad

Quote from Eric:No, what I am saying is that the person was not behaving in a way that is consistent with one who had experienced regeneration in Christ. There are 2 possibilities: 1. They were not saved 2. They were saved but have chosen to live carnaly, to allow the old nature to rule over the new nature they received at salvation ____________________________________________________________________ Ok where I have the question is #2. By all definitions he was saved. He even believes that himself. However he is living in serious sin (whatever sin you want to insert)_ Are you saying he will still go to heaven? Just to let you know where I am coming from, I don't think so, and I will look up some verses to support my thinking. But I am trying to understand completely what you are saying. Again?He goes to heaven no matter what? Thanks for your response Kansas Dad

This person was truly on fire for God for several years. Very active with the youth of the church, involved with the ministry of the church, demonstrated his Christianity in the community. Never hid his faith but didn't flaunt it either. The slipping took several years, a gradual process. I think this example is quite common, maybe not ending with the extreme, I used Homosexuality to make it very obvious that this person was no longer walking with God. It could be some one is so angry with God for the loss of a child, or spouse that they "Hate" God, and they walk away from God. So what you are saying is that a person that has been "truly" saved would never committ such sins, Therefor this person was never truly saved in the first place? Is that what you are saying? Kansas Dad

just trying to get my mind wrapped around this concept. Ok if a person believes in Jesus as their savior and professes his belief. He is truly on fire for God. His faith is evident through his actions. Years go by. Things happen in his life. He is less on fire for God. his faith is not so evident any more, in fact he finds himsef slipping. Time goes on, he slips even more until he finds himself committing serous sins, lets say, Homosexuality, child molesting, Adultery, It didn't start that way, probably started by looking at a magazine he shouldn't have and then progressed. What you are saying then is that this person was never saved in the first place, or are they saved and going to heaven anyway. Or were they saved and then did they walk away from God and thus walked away from their salvation? I Just don't get this? Thanks: Kansas Dad ps. Please just answer the question. I have read all the scripture verses you have quoted. By your interpretations of them, what is the answer to that question. This is for people on both sides of this debate.

And a very nice Sermon it was! Thanks: Kansas Dad

Sorry it took this long to respond. I was at the lake for 3 days. Here is the question I still have then. At some point in my life I take Jesus as my savior, repent of my sins and I am on fire with the love of God. My Faith and my works show this to be true. I go many years solid in my faith to God. But then I slip, and I slip some more. and then I find I am committing some terrible things. Can you loose your salvation? If this is true then there is "Mortal Sin" (salvation jeopardizing sin). If it isn't true then once I have Gods grace, all sins don't matter, because they are already forgiven, I think when we are committing (salvation jeopardizing sin) we close the door to God. God didn't close it, we did! We bind ourselves in the guilt of sin and we walk away from God and his grace. We as humans have a very very difficult time forgiving ourselves. God knows how to forgive; we don't do it well especially to ourselves. It is at these times, when we are in salvation jeopardizing sin that we must confess our sins WITH another human being. Only then will we open the door and except Gods grace. Otherwise we keep the door shut. (Quote from Convert)

I very much appreciate your post.. Sorry It took this long to respond. I was a the lake for 3 days. Here is the question I still have then. At some point in my life I take Jesus as my saviour, repent of my sins and I am on fire with the love of God. My Faith and my works show this to be true. I go many years solid in my faith to God. But then I slip, and I slip some more. and then I find I am committing some terrible things. Can you loose your salvation. If this is true then there is "Mortal Sin" (salvation jeapordizing sin). If it isn't true then once I have Gods grace, all sins don't matter, because they are already forgiven, and I think you have very eleloquentlyhown that Gods does not say this. I think when we are committing (salvation jeapordizing sin) we close the door to God. God didn't close it, we did! We bind ourselves in the guilt of sin and we walk away from God and his grace. We as humans have a very very difficult time forgiving ourselves. God knows how to forgive, we don't do it well especially to ourselves. It is at these time, when we are in salvation jeapordizing sin that we must confess our sins WITH another human being. Only then will we open the door and except Gods grace. Otherwise we keep the door shut. God Bless Kansas Dad ps. Sue you had an excellent response in the other thread. Thanks

Basically the same as catsmeow. by ignoring the verse catsmeow quoted and using the line of reasoning you have stated we run the risk of justifing all our sins. They really don't matter because we are going to go to heaven anyway. "(quote from other thread) Ok I waded through your dissertation. And I understand what you are saying. But let me ask you this. Then by your reasoning as long as I recognize Jesus Christ having die for my sins I can commit any atrocity (lets say molesting young boys or girls) and I still go to heaven because God does not see my sin anymore? Kansas Dad )" "(quote from other thread) The Bible even says that demons know who Jesus is, but are the demons going to heaven. I don't think so. The problem is that people are trying to separate Faith, Works, and Grace, and they can't be separated. It is through Gods Grace that we are saved. We all sin and can never earn our way into heaven. It is because we have faith in Jesus Christ that God gives us his grace. But Faith with out works is DEAD. It is not faith at all. God will spit it our and cast it away. I don't care how many times you say the magic words if you don't have faith you will not receive his grace and you will not get into heaven. If you do not have "good works" you do not have faith. If you do not have faith you have not received his grace and you will not go to heaven. You can not pick and choose which part you want and ignore the rest. It all goes together. Just because you are a "Born again Christian" does not give you license to do whatever you want because you are going to heaven anyway, and if you follow the reasoning above that is exactly what it says. "God no longer sees the sin in me". Therefore with that reasoning sin doesn't matter. Then if sin doesn't matter then I can sin all I want and I still go to heaven. I'm not buying it! Kansas Dad " There has been several post and it is difficult to get all the context this way. Thanks: Kansas Dad

I have this same line of questions in (repentance) in the general discussion area. I would love to have further thoughts from all the poster on this thread as well. God Bless: Kansas Dad

Thank you Dan for your thoughts and insights. Please keep in mind I was responding to Jmwhalen. I believe he has expressed a view held by some other posters here as well. I do think that there are some Christians who truly did except Christ as their savior but then "sliped" and continued slipping until they are committing grievous sins. by Jmwhalen line of reasoning though it doesn't matter. Now about your post. are we now thinking about small sins (non salvation threatening) and larger sins (salvation threatening) Lets explore this. Kansas Dad

What do you mean by don't play God for a fool? The Bible even says that demons know who Jesus is, but are the demons going to heaven. I don't think so. The problem is that people are trying to separate Faith, Works, and Grace, and they can't be separated. It is through Gods Grace that we are saved. We all sin and can never earn our way into heaven. It is because we have faith in Jesus Christ that God gives us his grace. But Faith with out works is DEAD. It is not faith at all. God will spit it our and cast it away. I don't care how many times you say the magic words if you don't have faith you will not receive his grace and you will not get into heaven. If you do not have "good works" you do not have faith. If you do not have faith you have not received his grace and you will not go to heaven. You can not pick and choose which part you want and ignore the rest. It all goes together. Just because you are a "Born again Christian" does not give you license to do whatever you want because you are going to heaven anyway, and if you follow the reasoning above that is exactly what it says. "God no longer sees the sin in me". Therefore with that reasoning sin doesn't matter. Then if sin doesn't matter then I can sin all I want and I still go to heaven. I'm not buying it! Kansas Dad

Ok I waded through your dissertation. And I understand what you are saying. But let me ask you this. Then by your reasoning as long as I recognize Jesus Christ having die for my sins I can commit any atrocity (lets say molesting young boys or girls) and I still go to heaven because God does not see my sin anymore? Kansas Dad

Sorry I didn't respond to your question. I guess I did not see the true spirit of the question. It also hits very hard and close to home so it is rather difficult to respond in such a public way. But maybe God is calling me to respond so that others may recognize the struggle. I struggle immensely with sin, and I do not live up to the standards I speak of. I have experience it, the total relief of unbinding my sins, but that comes from a true repentance of what is in your heart, and I am having a very difficult time letting it go, I know I am clinging to the sin when it is the worst thing I could ever do. I guess I am in one of those testing phases God sends our way. I don't always learn very well so God has to hit me with a sledge hammer far to often. Please never feel that I am judging you in any way, I have felt that sting and it makes me cringe. I think some of my post are in reaction to that perception, people judging other people. You are beautiful and wonderful in Gods eyes and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. I said that for my own benefit as well. God Bless Kansas Dad This was a difficult post

Sorry I should have said confess with another human to God> Big difference. Kansas Dad

Additional question. Do you feel it is necessary to confess to another human as apposed to confession just between you and God. I have shared some of my thoughts on this but what do you all think? God Bless, Kansas Dad

Quote Trust & Obey{"For me, I do not understand how one could be a genuine believer and be "at home" in the RCC. But, that is between them and their Lord."} Thank you for keeping it to the subject at hand I think this ia worthy discussion. I will admit that I have mixed thoughts on this subject. I find it a little scary though to dismiss it because God hasn't convicted it in my heart. All sin could be justified in this way. I do feel that Marriage is under attack from satan. God is so infinitely more knowledgeable then we, things that seem harmless may in fact not be so harmless. If in fact contraception does degrade the marriage could it no be a small step that starts society down a slippery slope. Have we really examined the consequences of what we do? Even though contraception has no conviction to you I would guess that abortion, adultery, pornography, and divorce does. Is it worth considering,