Trust & Obey
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a stamp, an imprinted mark
of the mark stamped on the forehead or the right hand as the badge of the followers of the Antichrist
the mark branded upon horses
thing carved, sculpture, graven work
of idolatrous images
I don't see how this can be an implant.
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Zayit, These chips are not altogether safe to have in your body. An example would be if a person was in an auto accident and needed an emergency MRI. A chip anywhere in your body could do great harm to both the person that it was in and anyone else that might be in or around the room. Likewise it would not be good to be around any serious microwave or radio energy with one for fear of serious burns or exploding parts. I am not sure what an exray would do, if anything, but early computer chips were damaged by the exray machines at airports (personal experience tells me this).
For this reason many who deal in researching these chips are saying that there will be a mark outside the body that will inform whoever needs to know where the chip is located and what frequency it responds to. thus we would likely have both the chip and the outward mark that would show to everyone...... basically the worst of both thought lines......
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Not true. The chips that people are receiving today for various purposes are "MRI safe."
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The chip is expected to last at least 10 years based on pet experience. Halamka says it's safe for MRI scans, and he sees no evidence the chip can be deactivated through magnetic energy. "I have flown to several dozen cities since the implant and have not triggered any airline security systems," he notes. The chip is not a GPS.
The unique ID transmitted by the VeriChip human-implantable chip isn't encrypted, so it could be read by a compatible reader. But unauthorised reading of the chip doesn't disclose any specific health information, he adds, because that's on a closed Web site.
Excerpted from this article.
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There are two places where the mark, the image and the number are mentioned:
In speaking about the beast it says:
13:7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
If there is a rapture , how then is he warring with the saints?
And not only makng war, but 'overcoming them'?
These saints are those who come to faith during the GT. There will be many people who get saved during the GT.
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While all the supposition about the Mark of the Beast is somewhat interesting, it's really pretty superfluous. No doubt the technology exists, it has since UPC codes were introduced back in the 70's.
However, it's kind of pointless to worry about it. Since it won't occur until well into the Great Tribulation.
The Seals and Trumpets of Rev 6-8 are rather non-specific and possibly use metaphoric language, so their fulfillment will always be subject to debate. Same thing with the Rapture. I believe it will occur, but whether it will precede the Great Trib is an open question.
I think Rev 11:7-10 , concerning the Two Witnesses are the key Scripture, to the End-Times. Once, that occurs, Believer's will KNOW.
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Why, don't you think that you will be here when this happens? If There is to be a rapture, then why is Jesus warning us? Those who believe in him and love him? If we are going to be taken then why or how should this even affect us?
UNLESS WE WILL BE HERE WHEN IT HAPPENS?
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The warning is to those who are alive and on the earth at the time.
Not everything in the Bible is written to every person on the earth.
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How many here think this latest disaster ( Hurricane K) will open up doors to use this? How many have no papers left to ID them? How many don't have their Bank accounts memorized? How many have lost medicines and medical records? ETC?
Wouldn't this be a good example for not just the US, but the whole world to accept something that can't be flooded or burnt ( without taking the person with them of course)?
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Not yet. Give it another generation. You and I would not go along with it. And, hopefully our children will not.
But guess what, the next generation will. They're being indoctrinated right now in the public school system and universities. They are being groomed to be "world citizens."
Big changes like that don't happen overnight. First they must reprogram the ideas and values of people before they can institute such a drastic change.
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Trust & Obey said:
"...not in the way Paul is using it to simply refer to himself as the one who "begat" the Corinthian church."
Wow! I'm glad I didn't say that. I'd be cut to ribbons.
He "begat" the church???? Whew! I thought Christ "begat" the church????
And, it is obvious from Titus 1:4, that Paul is speaking in a more personal tone than simply to the church as a whole.
Peace,
Sis
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You are absolutely correct in the "more personal tone" thing. I have "begat" people into the faith through leading them to Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Therefore, I am their "father in the faith" in the same way Paul was to the Corinthians.
Catholics call their priests "father" in a spiritual sense.
Fiosh, let me ask you something... your priest that you call "father..." is he the one that shared the gospel with you when you were dead in sins and thus "begat" you into the faith?
Here is another example of Paul using the "begat/begotten" term to refer to one whom he brought into the faith:
Phm 1:10 I beseech thee for my son Onesimus, whom I have begotten in my bonds:
This is not the context that Catholics use the term "father."
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How can you be a priest if we have no priests???
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What I said was that we don't have any priests that go between God and ourselves. The Bible calls all of us "priests" because we are now able to enter the holy of holies by the blood of Christ. A Catholic priest who presides over a parish has no more authority to approach God than you or I, based upon the finished work of Christ on the cross.
We can come boldly to the throne of grace.
Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
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This article bolsters one of my best arguments to date, for being a Baptist. Please notice that most of those who are mentioned in red are also the most liberal and have accepted as legitimate, the ordaining of homosexuals into the ministry and/or affirm the homosexual lifestyle as NOT being contrary to biblical principles. It seems where you find one false teaching, you'll find another.
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The Catholic Church is the most orthodox Church and not surprisingly the largest. The Catholic Church will never indorse homosexuality, abortion, contraception, ordaining of women priest etc. I grew up a Baptist and have much respect for them, but they are not as orthodox as the Catholic Church.
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Well, it seems like they (the Baptists) are more orthodox on the nature and place of Israel in God's plan.
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This article bolsters one of my best arguments to date, for being a Baptist. Please notice that most of those who are mentioned in red are also the most liberal and have accepted as legitimate, the ordaining of homosexuals into the ministry and/or affirm the homosexual lifestyle as NOT being contrary to biblical principles. It seems where you find one false teaching, you'll find another.
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When I was still a Christian I went to a Baptist Church, was baptisted in one even. My Step-father was also the Youth Pastor there.
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Zayit, what do you mean "when I was still a Christian?" Are you apostate now?
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But remember, what it boils down to is that the church isn't Israel.
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Amen! The Church is the Bride of Christ and not to be confused with the children of Israel.
Each group has their own place in God's plan of salvation.
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More hate, more deception, more division, What a great message.
Every time I turn around some one is spreading hate towards another church, especially my church the Catholic church. Not suprisingly just this morning it was a group of Babtist,(all of which I consider close friends) but it has just as often been assembly of God, and Penacostal. I am so weary of the hate, it just grieves my soul. Quite frankly I don't want to hear your "excuses" for spreading it, I don't want your apiologies laced with I apiologies BUT, I am right and you are wrong. This whole thing is disgusting. PLEASE JUST STOP!
My Dear Jesus, Please, please, please wash this clean.
Kansas Dad
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Kansad Dad,
I don't honestly see from the post where that is deception or hate. Speaking the truth in love is not hate. I have no beef with Catholic Christians and I'm Pentecostal. I don't always agree with the stance of the Catholic Church but I harbor no hate or ill will towards the Catholic Church or it's people.
This article was simply pointing out which churches support replacement theology. If in fact the RCC doesn't promote that, please provide proof.
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I agree completely, Ronald.
Kansas, where do YOU stand on Replacement Theology?
Do you fit in with the RCC on this doctrine?
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Hi Aim,
RE: "call no man father"
This is one instance where it is clear that this in not meant literally.
If you check your Concordance you will find several passages where
father (small "f" ) is used.
Even most Protestants will agree on this one.
Peace,
Fiosh
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Fiosh, Jesus is speaking about calling people your "spiritual fathers." We all have a flesh and blood father... God says "honor your father and mother." So, it isn't unbilbical to recognize our fathers according to the flesh. It is only when we refer to someone as "our father" in a spiritual sense, i.e. Catholic Priest/Pope, that this command of Jesus is violated.
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Hi Trust,
Thanks for the clarification. And of course, God is our ultimate spiritual Father.
When we address the Pope or priests as "father" we are doing so in the way indicated by Paul in I Cor 4: 14-15 "...for I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel. I urge you then, be imitators of me"
Just as Paul is father to the members of the church in Corinth, "through Christ Jesus", and only in subservience and obedience to him, so is the Pope "father" to his church, as a servant of Jesus Christ.
Peace,
Fiosh
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The difference is in the way the RCC uses the term "father." It is most certainly in a spiritual sense, not in the way Paul is using it to simply refer to himself as the one who "begat" the Corinthian church.
Roman Catholicism teaches that the Pope and Priests serve as intermediaries between God and man (Heb 5:1-3). That's what a priest is. A priest is one who represents the people to God, and God to the people. This is why we no longer need priests. We have one faithful high Priest, even Jesus Christ.
Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
The NT lists offices such as "evangelist, pastor, etc." I don't know of any passages that declare we have NT priests, except for this passage which says we are all kings and priests,
Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
So, I am a priest. You are a priest (or priestess) to God. What on earth do you or I need a priest for when we are priests?
Jesus is the only Mediator.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Priests were OT offices before Christ came. Now that Christ has come he has broken down the wall of separation and now we are able to come directly to God through Christ. Hence, priests in the sense of Catholicism are completely unnecessary and are actually contrary to God's order.
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You are forgetting that Satan is the master of deception. Do you think he is going to be so blatant? That this mark of the beast will be so obvious that even nonbelievers will recognize it? Someone who doesn't believe in God and doesn't read the Bible? Do you think someone or some gov. is going to say: Take this microchip and worship me or die. I don't think it is going to be that simple.
In Christ,
CarolineS
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Yes, I do believe it will be that blatant. You forget the other side of that coin. And, that is that it MUST be blatant, or else people might "accidentally" take the Mark. God would not have it that way. Nobody is going to "accidentally" swear allegiance to the Beast.
Nay, men will know they are swearing allegiance to the Beast and the false system.
The prophecies on the mark are very literal and there is no need for "figurative interpretation."
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It always amazes me that people will read the Book of Revelation and understand that the dragon, the beasts, a woman clothed with the sun, a Lamb, etc. are all symbolic. Then they read about a mark and all of a sudden the mark has to be literal.
Secondly, how can you know what this mark is, if you do not first identify the beast that causes all to receive this mark?
In Christ,
CarolineS
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Well, whatever the Mark is it will be used to track world commerce. A microchip implant has that capacity. So, I draw the connection there simply because it fits well and is a real possibility seeing as it is TODAY's technology and is being used for other purposes as I write this.
Regarding what is symbolic and what is not... so, what does "forehead" symbolize? What about "right hand?" What does that symbolize? What does "John" (the one who penned the book) symbolize? What does "God" symbolize?
You get the point. Some things are obviously symbolic, whereas other things are not obvious. If you want to impose some symbolism on them then you are certainly free to do that. But, understand that your symbolic interpretation cannot be any more valid than someone else's symbolic interpretation regarding the Mark seeing as you cannot prove one is accurate and the other is inaccurate.
However, if you just read the prophecy the way it is written it explains itself. Nobody will be able to "buy or sell" (i.e. engage in commerce or sustain themselves) without "the Mark" in "their right hand or forehead."
It is pretty simple if you let it be. Try not to overcomplicate that which needeth not be.
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OK. This mark will regulate who will be able to buy or sell. But it is more than a chip or a smart card. It has to do with worship. It has to be a test to see who is really going to follow Jesus and who is going to follow the beast.
I agree. Only those who agree to worship the beast will be given the Mark that will enable them to participate in the economy.
This does not mean in any way that the Mark will not literally be placed on the forehead or right hand, just as John says.
The prophecy is very simple and practical. No symbolic interpretation is needed to understand the text, unlike many other places in revelation where symbolism is obviously used (oil and wine representing wealth and prosperity--Rev 6:6).
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Hi Aim,
RE: "call no man father"
This is one instance where it is clear that this in not meant literally.
If you check your Concordance you will find several passages where
father (small "f" ) is used.
Even most Protestants will agree on this one.
Peace,
Fiosh
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Fiosh, Jesus is speaking about calling people your "spiritual fathers." We all have a flesh and blood father... God says "honor your father and mother." So, it isn't unbilbical to recognize our fathers according to the flesh. It is only when we refer to someone as "our father" in a spiritual sense, i.e. Catholic Priest/Pope, that this command of Jesus is violated.
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this same type of technology is being thought about for uses of identification in places like China. i think that the main point is, yes, we do have the technology. while tracking devices for known pedifiles does not fall under the 'mark of the beast' category, we can all see that this technology has the potential to bring prophecy to fulfillment. whether this type of technology will be used or not, we do all know that the 'mark' must be literal......eventually (if in our lifetime), there will be a mark neccesary to buy and sell. in my mind that is the determining factor. when i first read of this technology and it's possible ramifications, my very first thought was of the 'mark' naturally. i guess there's no telling how it will actually come, only the knowledge that it will. freaky business! i pray that we the body can see with clear eyes and deny this hideous mark in faith, when (if in our lifetimes) it is imposed upon us.
whether or not we should track pedifiles?? yes, but in this way??? not so sure.
the way that the gov. has been tracking them is somewhat ineffective. even though they are suppose to register wherever they live, so many do not. having known a pedifile and seen the life of a child destroyed by one, i do think the issue is more than serious and find a means of effectively keeping track of them desirable.
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Amen. That was my point. These examples are simply evidence of the trends towards tracking and controlling people with advanced technology. This technology makes a literal interpretation of the Mark completely viable.
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You are forgetting that Satan is the master of deception. Do you think he is going to be so blatant? That this mark of the beast will be so obvious that even nonbelievers will recognize it? Someone who doesn't believe in God and doesn't read the Bible? Do you think someone or some gov. is going to say: Take this microchip and worship me or die. I don't think it is going to be that simple.
In Christ,
CarolineS
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Yes, I do believe it will be that blatant. You forget the other side of that coin. And, that is that it MUST be blatant, or else people might "accidentally" take the Mark. God would not have it that way. Nobody is going to "accidentally" swear allegiance to the Beast.
Nay, men will know they are swearing allegiance to the Beast and the false system.
The prophecies on the mark are very literal and there is no need for "figurative interpretation."
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It always amazes me that people will read the Book of Revelation and understand that the dragon, the beasts, a woman clothed with the sun, a Lamb, etc. are all symbolic. Then they read about a mark and all of a sudden the mark has to be literal.
Secondly, how can you know what this mark is, if you do not first identify the beast that causes all to receive this mark?
In Christ,
CarolineS
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Well, whatever the Mark is it will be used to track world commerce. A microchip implant has that capacity. So, I draw the connection there simply because it fits well and is a real possibility seeing as it is TODAY's technology and is being used for other purposes as I write this.
Regarding what is symbolic and what is not... so, what does "forehead" symbolize? What about "right hand?" What does that symbolize? What does "John" (the one who penned the book) symbolize? What does "God" symbolize?
You get the point. Some things are obviously symbolic, whereas other things are not obvious. If you want to impose some symbolism on them then you are certainly free to do that. But, understand that your symbolic interpretation cannot be any more valid than someone else's symbolic interpretation regarding the Mark seeing as you cannot prove one is accurate and the other is inaccurate.
However, if you just read the prophecy the way it is written it explains itself. Nobody will be able to "buy or sell" (i.e. engage in commerce or sustain themselves) without "the Mark" in "their right hand or forehead."
It is pretty simple if you let it be. Try not to overcomplicate that which needeth not be.
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if you are looking for a conspiracy angle I can come up with a few
If you are right-wing;
1. Bush and the Feds want a large port with no one close enough to see what they are doing
2. Bush wants to start race riots so he can impose martial law on America.
3. Bush wants to federalize all crops coming down the Mississippi.
if you are left wing;
1. Bush doesn't care about black people. Never mind the fact that no other President in our history has had so many black people in high Cabinet offices.
2. Bush and the Republicans don't want to pay Social Security for a bunch of old folks, or let them have clean water....so they conspired to let them die.
3. Cheney and Haliburton have figured out how to aim a hurricane and they wanted to drive up the price of gasoline
Shall I continue???
seriously though Sam, the catastrophes you mentioned were much smaller in scale. This is an area the size of Great Britain without communications, electricity. clean water, fuel, or roads!
Something is drastically different in New Orleans, and I can't put my finger on just what, but it is different.It's NEW ORLEANS!!!
Can you name any city in America that was like it?
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Did you all hear about how this weekend (Labor Day weekend) New Orleans was having its annual "Southern Decadence" celebration of homosexuality? It was a very depraved type of celebration... it shouldn't be hard to imagine for anyone who has witnessed Mardi Gras footage.
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I agree you are very intelligent, but are all Christians as smart as you? And if the Bible is so easy to understand and clear, than why all the confusion. OSAS, Rapture, thousands of different denominations, different Bibles being made, with different interpretations. Do you see how people can become misguided over time and confused. Christ told us that he would leave us with a Church on Earth headed by a man, with guideance from the holy spirit. He also said that the gates of hell would not prevail against her.
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Pax, thanks for the compliment. I don't think it takes an enormous amount of intelligence to understand the Bible. But, what it does take is the Holy Spirit guiding that person as they read. Perhaps they won't read the Bible through one time and have a complete systematic theology thought out, but they will have the nuts and bolts of what it is to be a Christian.
God wants to speak to each of us through His word. Christians should not neglect a daily time in the Word of God.
It has been said before, "7 days without reading the Bible makes one weak."
Regarding the "church headed by a man" thing... I would disagree on that interpretation of the passage, as I'm sure you guessed.
God would not entrust the well-being of His Church to a mortal man.
Christ is the head of the Church, not Peter.
Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him (Christ) to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
Now, that passage clearly says that Christ is the head of the Church. It even goes on to say that the Church is His body. So, He's the head and we're the body.
Once more from a different passage for emphasis:
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
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I think Katrina demonstrated how woefully prepared we are as a nation for any type of large-scale disaster. Katrina is small compared to a nuclear terrorist strike.
As believers we know that God's will will be done on earth and we draw each and every breath from Him.
Therefore, for those of us living for Him we need not worry about our safety. Because, it is always a father's duty to look after the safety of his children. That's how it is in my household. How much more so of our heavenly Father?
Sometimes when I'm struggling with something I'll just bring it before the Lord and then say, "there... now it's Your problem."
I don't mean that flippantly or irreverantly. I think that is how God wants us to come to Him.
Phi 4:6 Be anxious for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
Phi 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
So, it is as we pray for everything that the peace of God keeps our hearts and minds. How is this? Because, after you cast it before the Lord's feet in prayer it is now His to deal with... literally.
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Fifty years ago, to say that one would have a "mark" in/on the right hand or in/on the forehead, so that no one could buy or sell..." would make less sense than it does now.
Not really, tattoos and body painting has been around since the beginning of the thinking man. Thats why it's crazy to believe this has anything to do with technology. I think it is/and meant to be that blatant.
I'm sure when it was written that is exactly what it meant because no one knew anything differently back then. This is proven for the mare fact there are passages in the bible that suggests the earth is flat using terms like four corners of the earth and huge pillars at the corners of the earth holding up the heavens.
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Isaiah and David eerily described the suffering of Jesus on the cross long before the Romans invented crucifixion.
Prophecies that speak to things that are yet to even be imagined, help make the Bible the awesome work that it is.
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Excellent point, Fiosh.
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Fifty years ago, to say that one would have a "mark" in/on the right hand or in/on the forehead, so that no one could buy or sell..." would make less sense than it does now.
Not really, tattoos and body painting has been around since the beginning of the thinking man. Thats why it's crazy to believe this has anything to do with technology. I think it is/and meant to be that blatant.
What you miss is the prophecy of the Mark is a lot deeper than a tattoo. It is implying that technology will be available to control world commerce. Nobody may buy or sell... in that you could lump rent an apartment, buy a house, probably work a job, have a bank account, credit card, etc.
If nobody could "buy or sell" that means there are no black markets where those who resist the system could sustain themselves. This also leads to the cashless society that we are headed to. Once we completely get rid of cash... and the only currency will be electronically traded, then truly all commerce can be controlled.
Cash is the big obstacle. While there is cash there will always be an undergroud economy.
The Social Securiy # has become something similar. Without a SSN it is very difficult to open a bank account, get a job, get a credit card, rent an apartment or buy a house, etc.
So, the Mark of the Beast prophecy DOES imply technological prowess and the ability to monitor each and every financial transaction.
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Here is an interesting article in my local newspaper today. It is about the new "Jessica's Law" that would require sex-offenders in California to be monitored for life. Sex-offenders will have the option of wearing the ankle thing... or having a microchip implanted underneath their skin.
For those who don't think the MARK is going to be literal... why not? The technology is here, it is being used just as Revelation suggests, and the evidence is all around us.
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Public safety reps say yes to Jessica's Law
Postmus notes that tough new policies for convicted sex offenders stand little chance in state Legislature
SAN BERNARDINO
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And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie. 2 Thess. 2:11
Who do you suppose God is talking about here?
The mark of the beast is going to be so subtle that people won't realize what they're doing.
Satan's not stupid. He knows what needs to be done in order to fulfill his destiny. He doesn't like it but he has no choice. He's going to take as many of us with him as he can.
If it was as simple as getting a mark on your hand or forehead, it would be a no-brainer. But there's a lot more to it than just receiving a mark.
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There is more to it than just getting a mark on the forehead or hand... you are right.
Just like, there was a lot more to saying "Caesar is Lord" than simply uttering the words. In so doing you were swearing allegiance to Caesar.
So, too, with the Mark... you will not be given the Mark, and by it the power to survive in the new system, unless you agree to its terms.
Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Rev 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
When a man's heart becomes hard he will shake his fist in God's hand. It doesn't need to be subtle. God wouldn't have it be subtle. For, if it were subtle, someone could accidentally take it.
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For those who don't think the MARK is going to be literal... why not? The technology is here, it is being used just as Revelation suggests, and the evidence is all around us.
Because its so blatently obvious?
That mark you are talking about is marking people who have broken a moral law, HaSatan has no morals, are you implying that the govenment is marking those who sin as followers of the devil?
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Zayit, I didn't say this WAS the Mark... I said it is the technology described in Revelation ABOUT the Mark.
Just like the glass of water I drink is similar to the Jordan River, although it didn't come from there.
My point is that the technology is here to LITERALLY fulfill that prophecy. Anyone who says it is "figurative" or whatever must do a lot of "hocus-pocus" with the Scriptures.
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If the glasses of water you drink are like the Jordan water then I will pray for you, the Jordon is polluted with raw sewage being dumped into it,
Zayit, I was referring to the H20 makeup, not the cleanliness of the water. But, I know I can always count on your glass being half-empty, pardon the pun.
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You are forgetting that Satan is the master of deception. Do you think he is going to be so blatant? That this mark of the beast will be so obvious that even nonbelievers will recognize it? Someone who doesn't believe in God and doesn't read the Bible? Do you think someone or some gov. is going to say: Take this microchip and worship me or die. I don't think it is going to be that simple.
In Christ,
CarolineS
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Yes, I do believe it will be that blatant. You forget the other side of that coin. And, that is that it MUST be blatant, or else people might "accidentally" take the Mark. God would not have it that way. Nobody is going to "accidentally" swear allegiance to the Beast.
Nay, men will know they are swearing allegiance to the Beast and the false system.
The prophecies on the mark are very literal and there is no need for "figurative interpretation."
Looks like Baptists are the major hold out
in General Discussion
Posted
The literal rendering is "dwelling places." I don't think the grandeur of the dwelling places is the point of the passage.