Pax

I would actually say that adultery is worse than homosexuality. Adultery is two sins. It is the sin of adultery, and 99% of the time it is the Sin of Lying. Adultery is a combination of sins, not a single sin.

Adultry and Homosexuality are both grave sins. I wouldn't spend to much time trying to decide which is worse. Both have the potential of leading to death unless one repents and stops engaging in such behavior.

My President can beat up your President......

t.

I would put my money on George W. Bush. Clintons bigger, but he is out of shape and would probably get distracted by some women walking by, then President Bush would nail him.

Pax, I am aware that these few verses from Matthew are interpreted by the Catholic Church to uphold their position that the

Bill Clinton is a joke, I just had to write that again......now I feel better.

This is directed to believers and non-believers:

1. What is your definition of faith?

2. What evidence supports this definition?

3. Do you believe faith is irrational? Why or why not?

Faith is a gift from God.

Then look to the church that still stands since the beginning, because Christ said it would, even til the end of time. I believe it still stands, and still has set doctrines that are all true, not false, because that is how God works.

Is that the catholic church?

I do not know.

You don't? How are we, then, to look to the church that still stands since the beginning, if we have to look for it?

God works, apparently, by setting through His church doctrines that are all true, not false, but He has not told anyone which church that is. A strange God.

Sure he has read Mathew 16:18-19.....its all there.

An 'official' Catholic is sure to trundle out that old tale, but I'm not asking an official Catholic.

Are you calling Christs' words an "old tale?"

If you ever get a chance to look at a Morman Church try to find a Cross......you won't find one. Instead of having a cross on the top of their Church they have a steeple pointing towards the sky. As stated above Mormans are not considered Christian.

Then look to the church that still stands since the beginning, because Christ said it would, even til the end of time. I believe it still stands, and still has set doctrines that are all true, not false, because that is how God works.

Is that the catholic church?

I do not know.

You don't? How are we, then, to look to the church that still stands since the beginning, if we have to look for it?

God works, apparently, by setting through His church doctrines that are all true, not false, but He has not told anyone which church that is. A strange God.

Sure he has read Mathew 16:18-19.....its all there.

Next example, what about the people who were on earth way before Jesus Christ and Gospels?

Hebrews 11:3....if they didn't do that, they weren't saved. Simple as that.

I assume you are talking about having faith and hope?

Ignorance does not save or excuse a person from hell. If this were the case, then sending missionaries and obeying the great commission would be the cruelest thing any of us could ever do.

O.k. then lets put your argument to the test. "Ignorance does not save or excuse a person from hell" then what about the profoundly handicapped adult who dies in their sleep at the age of 40. They couldn't read, write, or even comprehend what a person was telling them, because at birth the umbillical cord was wrapped around their neck. Are you going to tell all us that peron is going to hell??

Next example, what about the people who were on earth way before Jesus Christ and Gospels? They of course are ignorant of the word, because there wasn't any word yet. This argument that ignorant people can't get into heaven doesn't hold water. Only God knows who is going to heaven and who isn't going to heaven. But one must remember God is a merciful God and ignorance lowers ones culpability.

Then look to the church that still stands since the beginning, because Christ said it would, even til the end of time. I believe it still stands, and still has set doctrines that are all true, not false, because that is how God works.

Is that the catholic church?

I do not know. I guess since they word means universal, and God gave the church for the entire world, it would be catholic in a sense. ignatius called it catholic and called us Christians, he was the first to say either in writing historically known.

but hey, what do i know?

spoken like a good Catholic...

Ignorance does not save or excuse a person from hell. If this were the case, then sending missionaries and obeying the great commission would be the cruelest thing any of us could ever do.

O.k. then lets put your argument to the test. "Ignorance does not save or excuse a person from hell" then what about the profoundly handicapped adult who dies in their sleep at the age of 40. They couldn't read, write, or even comprehend what a person was telling them, because at birth the umbillical cord was wrapped around their neck. Are you going to tell all us that peron is going to hell??

A while back (in another thread) Shiloh had mentioned the small book (available on line) called The Trail of Blood by J.M. Carroll. Try if for the history of the early church.

Is the the Book that was written in the early 1900's that makes the argument that the Baptist Church can trace its roots to John the Baptist?

Thanks for you answers Pax.

Only Catholics in good standing with the Church can receive holy communion. So if a person truley believes in transubstantiation, the Church would say why aren't you a member? Why deny yourself the Body, blood, soul and divinity or Jesus Christ. If that person truely understood this they would come running to the Church.

I was thinking about the Eastern Orthodox who didn't want to give up being Eastern Orthodox and who did not recognize the Pope, but indeed recognized his or her own Bishop. That person may believe in the full RCC view of the Lord's Supper, and let us say lived in an area where the RCC was the only option, which would actually be a good portion of the US. In that case a person could it would seem, takes part in the Eucharist and never make a move to become a member of the RCC.

From what I understand any Eastern Orthodox Catholic can receive communion in a Roman Catholic Church.

Thanks for you answers Pax.

Smalcald,

Sometime you will have to fill me in on what Lutherans (orthodox Lutherans) consider as Sacraments. You can send me a P.M. with the info.

Certainly they are more like the RCC than some of the Evangelicals are, there is not doubt about that, I agree.

Just a couple of points of clarification. The two sacraments held by the Reformers were Baptism and the Lord's Supper, and some held Penance. Marriage was not seen as a Sacrament. Today of course you are correct, many Protestant groups don't even recognize the word sacrament or the concept. Although I don't know of any who don't baptize?

But I have a question. Is not the legitimacy of the Eucharist based on the ordination of a Priest, through the succession of the Pope from Peter and His calling from Christ? If so, does that mean that a Catholic can still take the Eucharist in a Eastern Church, and how can a person who does not recognize the legitimacy of the Pope an Eastern Orthodox believer, accept the Eucharist from a Catholic Priest? I was just curious about how that was justified? Also how does the Roman Catholic Church define Heretic? What I mean is that what happens to a heretic who refuses to recant in the eyes of the RCC?

I have another question (sorry I know I am hijacking this!), but if a person who was not an official member of the Catholic Church, believed that the Eucharist was valid, was the true transubstantiated body and blood of Christ, could that person take the Eucharist?

I would first like to say that I have respect for all people, especially someone such as yourself Smalcald. Your fist question is a very good one and I am not totally sure. Maybe an eastern Orthodox Catholic wouldn't want to receive communion in a Roman Catholic Church. I have research this matter enough to know that they are allowed communion if they so choose. I however would be denied communion in an eastern orthodox church since I am Roman Catholic. Heretic is defined as a person who adheres to false doctrines by the Catholic Church. I want to add something to this, I don't believe that Protestantism is 100% false doctrine and any knowledgeable Catholic would say the same thing. Many Protestants have a very good personal relationship with Christ and are very holy people.

What happens to a heretic who refuses to recant in the eyes of the Catholic Church? Every situation is different, and I am not God so I won't comment on this. But obviously it isn't a good situation for that person.

Only Catholics in good standing with the Church can receive holy communion. So if a person truley believes in transubstantiation, the Church would say why aren't you a member? Why deny yourself the Body, blood, soul and divinity or Jesus Christ. If that person truely understood this they would come running to the Church.

Well do what you need to do. I think it would be a fascinating study.

But in your search don't forget Christ and His Word contained in scripture, what I mean is test what is true against scripture. My only suggestion is don't ever let these things get in the way of your faith in Christ alone, which in the end is all that matters.

My search led me to put on the lens of Luther, and that is how I now see the Church. But I also realize I have these glasses on and understand that, and that the true church of Christ is eternal and made up of all those who have true faith in Him.

I think though that you may end up just as confused about the true visible church as before. Certainly the Eastern Orthodox/Roman Split was every bit as problematic for church unity as the much later reformation.

Smalcald as a Catholic I would disagree with you. The eastern/Roman split was not on the same level as the Protestant Reformation. As I have stated on here before the Eastern Orthodox Church still holds to all 7 Sacraments as the Roman Catholic Church does. The only issue here is that the East doesn't recognize the Pope as the head of the Church. So they are what we would call, in Schism with Rome. If an eastern Orthodox Catholic walkes into a Roman Catholic Church, they can receive the Holy Eucharist. The Protestants only really held onto about 2 of the Sacraments (Marriage and Baptism) and some don't even Baptize anymore, and of course they don't even use the word Sacrament in most Churches. The Protestant Reformation was a total break from Catholicism, where many of the doctrines and traditions of the early Church were done away with. A Protestant can't walk into a Catholic Church and receive the holy Eucharist and are classified as heretics by Rome.

Fox News, is named so, because it is owned by the company 20th Century Fox. Also the owner, is a liberal, but he is not an idiot when it comes to making money. He knows honesty and truth are what the American people want to hear. Anyone that says Fox News has a political agenda, doesn't watch Fox News, they get their information second-hand from political blog (whining/crying) sites. Bill O'Reilly is a very smart man and very skilled at debate, people do not like to go one on one with him, because they know they will lose. I Guess their egos can't accept a challenge.

Get real, I've watched enough of Fox's 'unbiased' reporting to know better. 1st, there isn't ONE unbiased reporting agency, with the potential exception of NPR, and Fox is so Right Wing it's sickening and very hard to sit through a broadcast

Are you really sickened by Fox news being so very right wing? You won't deny that CNN, MSNBC and a myriad of other news agencies lean so far the the left that it also makes many people sick as well. I am very thankful to have Fox since it seems all the other news agencies lean the other way. You wouldn't begrudge us our only voice now would you? I agree that Fox has a conservative bias but this does not have to be painted as something negative. I suppose we should stop listening to the rantings of Bill O'reily and accept more socially acceptable programming like "Nip Tuck", "Flava Flav" or perhaps "queer eye for the straight guy". You may not like Fox or those who agree with them, but you could at least show a little respect.

Fox is the highest rated cable news network...why do you think that is? Because every other news network is so biased to the left, the people want an alternative. All CNN can do is bash President Bush for pretty much everything. It gets old real fast, not to mention they don't ever cover any othe positve aspects of his Presidency. The same is true with talk radio, who has the highest radio programs that deal with politics....bingo the conservative ones.

What Islam really lacks is the ability to be self-critical. They cannot for whatever reason denounce their past. Christians today, look back in shame upon the history of the Church and the atrocities committed in the Name of Christ.

The Bible, does not hide the weaknesses and shortcomings of the main characters. Abraham, David, Solomon, Moses, Samson, Elijah, etc. are not presented as spotless pristine heroes who walked two-feet above the ground. Their weaknesses, and failings are laid out for us in the Bible. The Bible also does not spare the nation of Israel, whom God was particularly severe with in judgement.

Even in Judaism, the Talmud is rife with criticism for the past leaders of Israel, particulary those who were in Israel during the 1st century. The Talmud condemns first century Jewish leadership as evil and self-serving.

Muslims seem to be unwilling to condemn and completely separate themselves from Islamic history which is based upon forced conversions and military conquest. Islaim has shed a lot of blood in their attempt to spread their religion. They lack the ability to denounce their past all of which is of public record.

great post.

Luther was a giant in bringing the Church closer to Christ.

Perhaps a dwarf who saved a cult.

Pointer with comments like this, you will never sway a person to your beliefs.

I don't think I need to.

Pointer do you believe in Predestination?

I believe in correct Engish usage.

What you don't understand what Predestination is?

And George W. Bush is an abomination. Next?

Clinton was and is a disgrace.

River, are you really a guy named Hugo, from South America? The difference we have here is fact verse opinion. Bill Clintons record is fact. Whether or not you think we should be in the middle east trying to stabelize the region is your opinion.

Clinton was and is a disgrace.

Luther was a giant in bringing the Church closer to Christ.

Perhaps a dwarf who saved a cult.

Pointer with comments like this, you will never sway a person to your beliefs.

I don't think I need to.

Pointer do you believe in Predestination?

I believe that "balgh, blagh, blagh" is about what's due to someone who regurgitates the same the same old Rush Limbaugh quote of the today. So I ask you, Is that the best you can do?

Blagh, blagh, blagh. And your George W. Bush is a pillar of innocence and virtue. Give me a break.

Oh, I'd love to see that as well. O'reilly would make a complete ass of himself, par for course, and Presdent Clinton would remain dignified and act like a true leader. It would be priceless.

How to set up an interview between Bill Clinton and Bill O'Reilly....

Mwaa-haa-haa-haaaaaa!

Bill Clinton is a pathological liar. His record speaks for itself. At no time in U.S. history have we a had a sitting President that was involved in so many scandels. I am just amazed at how women liked Clinton. He took advantage of women every chance he could get. Monica L., a 19 year old white house intern is just one of Clintons flings, reseach what he did in Arkansas sometime. So we have this great leader who gets sexually involved with 19 year old girls in the oval office, remember Bill is married and is the president. President Regan once said that he wouldn't even take his tie off in the oval office, showing how much respect he had for the office and the presidency, Clinton used this place for sexual flings with 19 year old interns, and then tried to lie about this. Some great leader......

Is this the best comeback you can give to defend Clinton is blagh, blagh, blagh.......probably so, that's about the best things I could say about Clinton. Clintons legacy is Monica L. and that all it will ever be. Of course we could talk about Somalia, Travelgate, White water, His personal counsel killing himself, how Clinton stole items from the White house after he left office, how his wife invested money with Tyson in cattle and made $100,000......and in his Arkansas days, Jennifer Flowers and some other women that he paid off to shut up that I can't think of right now but I'm sure it will come to me.

I don't have to do any better, we had the President of the United States having sexual relations with a 19 year old intern in the oval office on more than one occasion and then lieing about this in front of a grand jury. This is called purgury and you if and I or any other red blooded American would of done this we would of been sent to jail. This is just one scandle. How can you be so blind. If a Republican President did this I would of been for his impeachment. I don't have the rest of the day to type of the Clintons scandles. This would not only take days but years.

Blagh, blagh, blagh. And your George W. Bush is a pillar of innocence and virtue. Give me a break.

Oh, I'd love to see that as well. O'reilly would make a complete ass of himself, par for course, and Presdent Clinton would remain dignified and act like a true leader. It would be priceless.

How to set up an interview between Bill Clinton and Bill O'Reilly....

Mwaa-haa-haa-haaaaaa!

Bill Clinton is a pathological liar. His record speaks for itself. At no time in U.S. history have we a had a sitting President that was involved in so many scandels. I am just amazed at how women liked Clinton. He took advantage of women every chance he could get. Monica L., a 19 year old white house intern is just one of Clintons flings, reseach what he did in Arkansas sometime. So we have this great leader who gets sexually involved with 19 year old girls in the oval office, remember Bill is married and is the president. President Regan once said that he wouldn't even take his tie off in the oval office, showing how much respect he had for the office and the presidency, Clinton used this place for sexual flings with 19 year old interns, and then tried to lie about this. Some great leader......

Is this the best comeback you can give to defend Clinton is blagh, blagh, blagh.......probably so, that's about the best things I could say about Clinton. Clintons legacy is Monica L. and that all it will ever be. Of course we could talk about Somalia, Travelgate, White water, His personal counsel killing himself, how Clinton stole items from the White house after he left office, how his wife invested money with Tyson in cattle and made $100,000......and in his Arkansas days, Jennifer Flowers and some other women that he paid off to shut up that I can't think of right now but I'm sure it will come to me.