Franky67

I am not making a denomiational argument at all. No, their mission was not the same as the great commision. The 12 and 70 were not commanded to make other disciples. They were also limited to house of Israel. You are trying to refute an argument I have not raised. I have no problem with that, but it does not really address the issue. It does not mean that the apostles did not have a unique calling and ministry and a unique supernatural environment that accompanied their unique ministry. And that supernatural environment is the Kingdom of Heaven, and it has never changed , your theology has it changing depending on who brings it to hand. Jesus said pray "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth, as it is in Heaven." And Jesus demonstrated what the earth is like when the Kingdom is at hand. He said "Tell John, the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the poor have the gospel preached to them." This is the environment of the Kingdom of Heaven, always the same, regardless of who ushers it in.

Because the mission of the 12 and the 70 was not the same as the Great Commission. As I have stated before, God did not promise to empower every member of the church with the same signs and wonders as was given the apostles. Your reasoning is, "if they could do it, then I should be able to as well," but that is not something promised in the Bible, and it is improper for you to assert something that the Bible has not said. The promises Jesus made to the disciples were for them. You cannot take what was promised to them and universalize it to apply to the entire church. That is not good theology, and it has the potential to produce a lot of false teaching. By shiloh Shiloh, This is denomination talking here, not scripture. The mission is the same great commission, the 12 and 70 could not go " into all the world ", it would take those who followed them , and on , and on, to accomplish this great commission, all believers are fully equipped. We haven't been given two sets of instructions on reaching the world for Christ, we have been given ONE SET OF INSTRUCTIONS, and one instructor, Jesus. I have not "reasoned" my belief, I have read it in plain words, red words by the way, in the New Testament, for instance, Mark 16 15. "And He said to them, "Go into all the world, and preach the gospel to all creation, he who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved, and he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. And these signs shall accompany those who have believed; in My name, they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; they will pick up serpents and if they drink any deadly poison; it will not injure them; they will lay hands on the sick and they will recover." Jesus gave them these instructions before He ascended to the Father.

2 Cor 11:12-15 But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast. For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works. It is not the lack of faith as you say, but rather a different moving of the Spirit. The Apostles had all the gifts, where those who are baptized in the Spirit are given according to His will. The Spirit will continue to work in the lives of believers, this I agree, but we do not have the same calling as the Apostles did. I will not believe that there are true Apostles nor Prophets unless they have the signs, wonders and mighty deeds that followed the first Apostles and Prophets. Since God has not changed, neither has the calling and works. In the Scripture above, Paul was speaking of the Jews who would try to come and impose the law on these new believers. Fact is all who were witnessed to about the Kingdom of Heaven, did not fully comprehend the message, and went off mixing the law with New Testament grace. It's not something preachers today bring as a subject of their sermon very often, but there was a true rift between Paul and the church at Jerusalem over the subject of new converts having to keep parts of the law, for instance circumcision. These were not "apostles, but they were from the church in Jerusalem, and they thought they needed to straighten out the new converts. Acts 15 starting at verse 23 is the letter Peter wrote them in Antioch Syria, and Cilicia, to attempt at damage control.

"Has Jesus personally come to you and chosen you, as He did the original 12 and Paul? I agree that we are apostles, as the Greek meaning means "one sent". The question is who has sends us? The church we attend? Was it a personal invitation given to you, by a personal appearance of Christ? There is a difference. People who believe that the offices are the same today, especially Apostleship, having the exact same authority as those who were personally sent by Christ, are the reason for so much false teachings coming from false apostles." In order to accomplish what Jesus instructed them to do , all "sent ones" must perform the exact same tasks, nothing the 12 did can be omitted today. We can just do more in quantity than they did. Has Jesus personally come to me ? Yes He has. The new birth is a supernatural event where I accepted His call, by His Holy Spirit, who is just as real as Jesus Himself, He said that, when He told the disciples that He must leave them, but that He would send the Comforter. Jesus did not even hint that the work of the Comforter would be any different than His. Who sends us ? How could one ask such a question ? The Lord God sends us. It's the Trinity. In a face to face discussion recently on this subject, I was asked the question, "Could you write a book in the new testament, as the true apostle Matthew did.? My answer was yes, The Holy Spirit can write through me the same as He did Matthew. Luke wrote a book, and he was not listed among the twelve. The reason this topic has drawn so much fire is that it is the root belief that created cessationism , which has divided the body of Christ for centuries, and still does today. The unanswered question today is, "Why do followers of Christ today require less power and delegated authority now, than they did at first."

Sure. We read about their abilities in 2 Corinthians 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds. Yes, the anointing it the Holy Spirit, called the Helper, who will teach us all things and bring to our memory what we have been taught. John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. Signs, wonders and mighty deeds were the result of the gifts given to the Apostles. What made them Apostles is being called, in person, by Christ. Yes, the Holy Spirit is given to us today like never before. He lives in us! He gives us each gift(s) according to His will. If you follow the ministries of the Apostles, you will notice that they were able to perform all the gifts where no other since then have been able to do so. No other since have done as much as they, but not because they couldn't, but because of this teaching which destroys faith. I, and you all are, apostles, according to the definition of the Greek word for apostle. Nothing in that definition says that it is one who physically walked with Jesus. We have the same Holy Spirit, He is the helper, no teaching in the bible states that He is limited in His helping us today. Ephesians 1:17-20 proves that. Paul prays for them that they may know the fullness of God's power given to them. Nothing to suggest that the Ephesians could any less then he (Paul ) could do in spreading the gospel. Not one scripture on this thread has been given to support this widely held doctrine.

God is moving supernaturally today. I can't imagine anyone thinking He is not. The problem is that we get presumptuous in our assumption that because God did something through the apostles, that He should do the same thing through us. God is not obligated to us for that. It is very dangerous to take stories of the apostles and make doctrines out of them. I agree. Unlike the 12 and the 70, we do not sit under the teachings of Christ as they did and are not guided as they were. Yes, we have the Holy Spirit in us, but are we capable to hear His instructions as Christ did? Are we as dedicated to Him as they were? There is a world of difference between those who were with Christ and us today. I must answer this..... The 12 and 70 were not physically capable of taking the Gospel to the whole world, how is it possible that God would not equip every one of His believers with all His delegated authority. Paul knew this when he prayed this prayer for the Ephesians, "I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened so that you may know what is the hope of His calling what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ,when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places."

It would be more accurate to say that the supernatural signs that accompanied the apostles were unique as opposed to saying they were superior. Events such as people being healed by Peter's shadow, or the death of Annanias and Saphira are examples of signs that were meant to establish the authority of the Apostles. Those kinds of signs are NOT promised to believers at large. I would also point out that raising the dead is another apostlic sign (such as occurred in the ministry of Paul) is not something promised to believers at large. Yet, we find supernatural signs in the lives of the apostles that are not promised to all believers for all time. They were not even for all believers of the 1st century. God is obligated to His Word, but the problem is that God has not promised anywhere in His word that every sign at work in the lives of the original apostles would be transferred to all believers. Just as there were supernatural signs and events that were unique to the ministry of Jesus, there were supernatural signs unique to the ministry of the original apostles. Trouble with the above theology is that it is not stated anywhere in plain words that the apostles were unique in their ministry. On the contrary, Ephesians 1,2,3 says that all the fullness of God dwells in them. And then there is this statement from Jesus In Mark 16:17,18 "And these signs will accompany those who have believed, in My name, they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues. They will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them, they will lay hands on the sick and they will recover." Jesus stipulated "those who believe" do we believe ? And in Matthew 10:7 Jesus says "And as you go, preach, saying the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. " The Kingdom of Heaven, is the Kingdom any different today, than it was when the Apostles preached ? Is the atmosphere of the Kingdom any different, next verse says the sick are to be healed, the dead are to be raised, the lepers are to be cleansed , and the demons cast out. The Kingdom of Heaven being at hand accomplishes these things. Now as well as then. No teaching I can find has a limited Holy Spirit dwelling in any believer. So please lets settle this issue with a scriptural teaching of this belief. Seminaries are teaching this, with no concrete scripture to back it up.

But the promises of God still stand, Like God said, for a thousand generations. What has happened, and what may happen in the future can not, and does not change God's promises. As for Jesus' short life, that was predetermined from the beginning of creation.

Absolutely

Thanks, the logical progression of thoughts along this line, is that the promises of God all through the scriptures have been secured by the work that Jesus did at calvary. Now comes the part that separates many believers. All would agree that salvation was secured for everyone on planet earth who would receive it. The word used in the Greek New Testament is Sozo for saved, and soteria for salvation, both words. Both words mean to make whole, physically and spiritually. Both definitions include the words health, and \ or healing. So all this tells me that if spiritual salvation was provided by Jesus, then physical salvation was also provided. Again, provided for all who will accept it. I believe it is possible to accept the one, and deny oneself the other. One of the promises is a long life (psalm 91), so no, we won't live forever, but God said, " With a long life I will satisfy him, and let him behold My salvation" There's that word again, only in Hebrew the name for salvation is YESHUA, and it means the same thing as the two greek words, save and salvation. All the promises of God are, in Him, are yes and amen.

2 Cor. 1:20 "For as many as may be the promises of God, in Him they are yes wherefore also by Him is our amen to the glory of God through us." All through scripture, "as many as" means all, so I take the verse above to mean that every promise to mankind that God has ever made must come to mankind through and by Jesus. And if by Jesus, then by the cross. So now we have every blessing coming through the finished work of Christ. 1 Cor. 10:4 says when Moses led them out of bondage, they all drank from the same spiritual rock, and that rock was Christ. Therefore, everything we receive from the Father is because of Jesus. Opinions ?

What is the teaching of most of you here regarding the disciples that were sent out by Jesus ? Were they gifted with powers and insight that no believer since then has been given? Were they "set apart" different from all other believers?

Playing the victim is your only response? Why is it that when your theology is challenged, you either disappear (only to return to the same issue and start yet another topic), or you try to play the victim? If you believe in this so strongly, then defend it. Don't dance around the issue, throwing out misapplied Scripture, then get all wounded when it's challenged. You opened the discussion, so let's discuss it. Do you have a legitmate response to the Scripture and biblical defense I've given or not? Or shall I assume from your record that you'll just ignore the challenges brought forth and simply start another topic at a later date? Just one, Tess, I'm tired ! He, Himself took our infirmities, and carried away our diseases. What, about Matthew's statement, don't you believe ?

My other cheek is turned to you, Tess strike me again.

Hi, Dave Thank you for the kindness reflected in your response. My church also has prayed in vain for healing, and the most heart wrenching one was a 13 year old girl who died from cancer after we prayed for months. I can't explain why these things happen, but I have chosen to believe God is what Jesus said He is, and I have chosen to go this direction with my life in Christ, because I believe we have a better chance of receiving from God when we believe. Like Jesus said, "only believe" If a person has been taught that God only heals when He decides to, then we can never have the faith to receive, like James said in 5:15. In Nazareth, Jesus, God in the flesh was deterred from much works because of their lack of faith, they thought He was just a carpenter's son. All faith is, is believing what God says is true. Jesus was so eager to heal in the four Gospels, why would He be any less eager to heal us now? Fact is, He already has, as Matthew said, taken our infirmities, and carried away our diseases. Blessings of God to You 1. This is a hedonistic view. Your desire (for health, in this case) is the ultimate goal, and you've derived that "belief" will achieve your goal the best. It's selfish at it's heart. 2. This places the responsibility on the individual, rather than on God. It makes God dependent upon the person's faith (or lack thereof) before He can respond. 3. This neglects various instances in scripture when people (or their loved ones) were healed in spite of their "little faith" (see Mark 9 for example where a father admitted faith along with doubt). 4. This also disregards the fact that Scripture teaches "little faith" can accomplish great things (see Matthew 17:20). 5. We are taught in Scripture that faith comes from God, not ourselves. If faith is the culprit when we aren't healed, the ultimate blame must lie with God...as it originates from Him alone. 6. Even if we are to accept that increased faith is the only faith rewarded with healing, this would also contradict various other verses (including James 1:2-4) where we are taught that faith grows through trials. If faith grows through trials (as Scripture teaches), then this would explain why very often it's those who don't receive a healing who have such tremendous faith....as they have had to cling to God even more through their pain and suffering. 7. You reference James but neglect that he also refers to Job (in the verses prior to the one you mentioned) as a man of patience who endured through suffering. In summary, your view of healing is quite skewed, unbiblical, and shows a great misunderstanding of faith, trust, and most importantly....grace. And again, why the obssession with physical healing? Why do you abandon topics you've started on the same issue, only to start new one's later? Is it because you are challenged and corrected, but rather than receiving correction...you just ignore it for a while then come back with the same old misinterpretations? Please just stick to one topic on the same issue. If you believe in it so strongly, show us your knowledgeable enough about it to withstand the challenges of those who disagree by sticking with it and responding to the challenges put forth. As shiloh mentioned, you need to learn to rightly divide the Word. Anytime the "faith healing" believers come around posting this stuff, I've yet to see anyone of you use scripture correctly or respond to challenges of your "interpretations". If it's so important that you think it's necessary to start repeated topics about it, then defend it. Tess, Here is what I said, "I have chosen to believe God is what Jesus said He is, and I have chosen to go this direction with my life in Christ, because I believe we have a better chance of receiving from God when we believe. Like Jesus said," Only Believe." Here is your Judgement of me for saying that, "This is a Hedonistic view your desire (for health in this case) is the ultimate goal, and you've derived that belief will achieve your goal the best. It's selfish at it's heart." Tess, do you really believe you've been fair in judging me ? You don't know what my ultimate goal is in my walk with Christ. Although I am nearly 81, I have no health issues, although one on here has said I am unsaved because I wear glasses, another judgement ? When I made that statement above about believing God, I had the scripture in James 1.5-8 where James says if one lacks wisdom, let him ask in faith without doubting. doubting brings double mindedness, which means one may have two or more visions of the answer to his prayer in his mind, and God says that is doubt, and unbelief. Therefore I will choose to believe. I believe the message of Jesus is to believe Him in everything He has said, and pray accordingly. As To Faith, we are given a measure of faith when we are born of the Spirit. God says faith comes by hearing the word of God. And without it we cannot please God. INMO faith is believing God meant what He has said in His word. When Jesus says the works He has done, we can do also, I believe that. James says that trials test our faith and produce indurance. Trials don't build our faith, hearing and believing the word of God builds our faith.

Dear rasberry, Looking at my post #1 you will see that I brought up the fact that Matthew in chapter 8, verse 16 and 17, said after listing many healings that Jesus did shortly after preaching the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew stated that the prophesy of Isaiah in the Old Testament had come to pass. Then Matthew said "He, Himself took our infirmities, and carried away our deseases." Since Matthew wrote this in the year 50 to 70 AD, he was stating that Jesus bore our sickness and diseases at Calvary. Since Jesus redeemed us from sickness and disease as well as sin, we can ask for healing just as we ask for salvation with the assurrance that He has already accomplished it. We just have to receive it. The disagreement is that some say God has not promised health to everyone. But most people will agree that God has promised salvation to everyone. We have to receive salvation by faith, and it's the same with healing, we have to receive it with faitth. How many times did Jesus say to the healed ones, "your faith has made you whole " ? Matthew 18.19 "Again I say to you that if two or three of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in Heaven." I just believe what Jesus has spoken to us is truth. May God Bless you

ayan jade, I guess, for the sake of argument, you have taken a stance regarding Jesus' healing that Is unbelievable. Are you really saying you believe Jesus was reluctant to heal those who asked to be healed? Matthew 9.2-8 was a special occurance where Jesus equated the forgiveness of sin with healing as being both within His power to bring about. MANY other cases where Jesus healed, He did it very willingly. When the Centurion came to Him about his sick servant, Jesus was ready and willing to go to his house and heal the man. The leper said "Lord if your are willing, you can make me clean," Jesus said, "I am willing, be clean" Jesus healed Peter's mother-in-law, Peter didn't beg Him to heal her, Jesus healed her without hesitation.

Check out Mark 16.15-20, Acts 4.29, 30 You will read that signs were given to confirm the word, not the preacher of the word. Jesus said that the works He did proved that He was sent by his Father, but those after Him had their words confirmed by the signs which followed. Why, if the miracles were no longer necessary would Jesus tell His followers that believed, would heal the sick , clense the lepers, etc, are we believers, if so, we are told we have the authority in Jesus' name to do these things which confirm the word. By the power of the Holy Spirit. Some teach the gifts were no longer needed, the Bible does not teach that. The "perfect" is Jesus, not the canon. 1Cor. 13.8 says tongues, and knowledge would cease when the perfect has come, well the canon has come, and we still have prophesy, tongues, and we still need knowledge. All this is my opinion of what the bible teaches.

Why does the subject of Jesus' healing make some Christians angry ? One of you even called it a stupid subject. Yes, The context of Acts 10.34 is speaking of God not being partial to any one race or nation, but all through His word He says all men are included in all the blessings He has bestowed through His Son Jesus, so God is no respecter of persons, in regard to who will receive His Salvation. verses 34-38 I had no idea this was a private area, all though some agreed with my view of what Matthew said about Isaiah's prophesy. AK, Tess, Shiloh, sorry to offend

The body was not left out of salvation. That is why we will one day recieve a glorified body. We have never been promised that God will heal every person every time. No such promises exist in Scripture. That does not mean that God does not heal. We simply do not have a promise that every Christian is promised absolute perfect health. Our God is NOT a respecter of persons, please read my previous post.

Rania, God wants our bodies healthy now, why would Jesus do what He did for three years, as depicted in the Gospels, healing , healing, healing. Do you think He did it to be a temporary side show attraction, no, He did it to demonstrate to mankind the will of God. Jesus said I do the things I see my Father doing. Please go to Matthew and begin reading in chapter 8, right after Jesus preached the sermon on the mount, He came down off of the mountain, and began healing, He healed the leper, then He healed the centurion's servant, then He came to Peter's home, and healed his mother-in-law, then Matthew said these words in 8:16, and 17 "And when evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon possesed, and He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were ill in order that what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, saying 'HE, HIMSELF TOOK OUR INFIRMITIES, AND CARRIED AWAY OUR DISEASES'.

AMEN, Thanks for the testimony, His faithfullness is a shield and a buckler.

Yes, yes, yes, because I believe Isaiah 53:4, and Matthew 8:16,17, Jesus said to the synagogue official before he healed his daughter, "do not be afraid, only believe." Mark 5:36 In Romans 11:20 , domestic branches were broken off of the Olive tree because of their unbelief. Partial belief does not please God, we must believe every word the Master spoke. Study the activities of Jesus in the Gospels, as He said He was doing the will of His Father, He healed the sick, and delivered the oppressed. The will of God is for His children to be free of sickness and disease, so the Father sent His son to earth to carry out that will, "He , Himself took our infirmities, and carried away our diseases", Just as Matthew said, He ought to know, he was there.

Indeed why would God create man with a spirit, a soul, and a body then leave "one" or the other out in "salvation"? Good point! Blessings unto you in Christ. Thanks, yes, why would a loving God not care about our body as much as the rest of us?