Franky67

Many denominations teach that Jesus was speaking only to the 12 and the 70, and that the things they did, no one else can do. When the last Apostles who were with Jesus died, then the signs and wonders ceased, and were no longer needed, because now they could read about it and get saved. Jesus demonstrated exactly the nature of the Father, and what the Kingdom of Heaven is like.

If what you're watching is pleasing to the Holy Spirit, then it is the right thing to watch. I what you're watching pleases the flesh in you, then shut it off. Violence is not pleasing to God. Read Isaiah 11, which describes the thousand years on earth when Jesus is supreme ruler. No hurt is allowed on God's Holy Mountain. No hurt in man, nor beast. They put violence and immorality in movies to sell tickets, because the world loves it. We, christians are not of this world.

We will rule and reign with Christ on earth for a thousand years, while satan is in solitary confinement. Isaiah 20:4 This beautiful time on earth without evil is described is Isaiah 11. and After the thousand years ?, read Revelation chapter 21. I think you meant Rev 20:4 Franky. The topic is about the idea of going to heaven being a misnomer. Rev 21 proves my point. TO where does the bride return? The New Earth, despite the fact that a new heaven is also brought to pass.We will have bodies in the eternal state, and bodies are the province of earth, while spirits are the province of heaven. We go to heaven when we die in this body, but we don't STAY there, we come back HERE. As for the millennium being exactly 1000 years...the early church did not believe that from all indication. Cerinthus, a Gnostic whom John opposed, was the first to interject a literal millennium into Christian thought and his writings and teachings were considered heresy. But where is Jesus now, with the holes in His feet and hands, and side, he is at the right hand of God, so I don't know about everything in heaven being spirit. The Bible says 1000 years, no reason to make anything else out of it. Most Christians today don't forsee a thousand years rule on earth by Jesus.

So, there is the question; If HE intended this earth to be perfect and without evil, and it went astray, what is to keep the new earth from going astray?

Page 429 Lines 10-12: An "advanced care consultation" may include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. (AN ORDER TO DIE FROM THE GOVERNMENT?!?)

We will rule and reign with Christ on earth for a thousand years, while satan is in solitary confinement. Isaiah 20:4 This beautiful time on earth without evil is described is Isaiah 11. and After the thousand years ?, read Revelation chapter 21.

John 1:1 "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." By the way, theJehovah Witness bible say "the Word was A God."

I understand that Paul was up against a lot of judaizers (sp) and had to set a lot of things straight, but still he was not perfect as you said. ButI guess he said that because they were better off following him than the ones that told them they had to obey the law to be saved.

All Christians CAN be led by the Spirit, but all of us are not, at all times. That's the reason there are so many denominations. Before I accepted the Lord, I would tell those who talked to me about their denominational beliefs, " one of you tells me all the gifts have ceased, another tells me they haven't, so which is right ? One says God ordained everything that happens, another says He didn't. So Just read my bible and ask God the Holy Spirit to teach me.

Wonder if this is a denominational thing ? Then also there's the scripture that says not to follow men, 1 Cor. 1 12,13 "I am of Paul, I am of Apollos,.....etc"

That's what I thought, but Paul says to follow him in three different places. 1 Cor 4:16,17 11:2 and Phil.3:17

Does this teaching strike anybody else as wrong ?

The only sacrifice that was abrogated was the sin offering. That is the only offering not mentioned in Ezekiel 40-48. They will serve the same purpose they originally served. The Bible is replete with prophecies pertaining to the resumption of the sacrifces and the annual festivals during the millennial reign of Christ. It shows you have a rather one-dimensional understanding of the sacrificial system. In the millennial reign of Christ, the sacrifices are not expiatory, but operate on a more civil level, as they did originally. One of the things people fail to grasp is that the sacrifices were not the "Old Testament" means of salvation. No one was saved by them in the first place, so they do not in any way compete with the sacrifice of Christ. The burnt offering for example was simply an offering of worship. It was not sin atonement or anything like that. I agree on these points. For some reason the sacrifces are seen through the modern eye as appeasing an "angry god," but that is not the case. In many ways, the sacrifices pointed to the work of Yehoshua, and I believe to some extent will point back at what he has done. But they never saved nor will they ever save. And, it seems clear, will continue in the millenial reign. Peace. Ken Try reading Isaiah 11:6-10 and Isaiah 65:25 God has said there will no longer be any hurt on His Holy Mountain. So if it "seems clear" to you that animal sacrifice will continue in the thousand year reign of Christ, show us the proof.

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. What does this mean? The difference between the Old and the New Covenants Hebrews 8:18, and Jeremiah 31 says God found fault with THEM, not with His covenant, so in verses 8-13, the writer of Hebrews explains the new covenant (the word " new " here refers to new in quality, rather than brand new, never existed before) A new covenant where God says He will write His laws on their hearts, and put them in their minds. Jesus says He would send the comforter to be IN us , Paul wrote that "we have the Mind of Christ" And Romans 15 says Jesus came to confirm the promises made to the fathers, ie, the covenant. What makes it better? we now have the Holy Spirit resident in us , we have the Mind of Christ. We are told to renew our minds, which means to bring our physical minds into one accord with the Mind of Christ. What else makes the new better than the old? this covenant was confirmed by the very blood of God. Jesus took upon Himself all the curses of the law, He said "I came not to destroy, but to fulfill the law." In Christ, we are heirs to all the blessings of the everlasting covenant, and in Christ, our iniquities are redeemed, our sins are forgiven, the debt is paid in full. These are for all who are in Christ, but many do not know what they have inherited, and therefore cannot receive the blessings. Many have said that if all these blessings were given by God through Christ, then all Christians would be healed, and all would be blessed in all these other ways, but they say they don't see it, so it must not be a true doctrine. Do we prove the word of God, by the evidence of our senses? 2 Cor 1:20 "All the promises of God are, in Him, yes and amen" Col 2:9 "In Him all god's fulness dwells." Malachi 3:1 "..........the messenger of the covenant......"

A Question by OneLight I believe we all have the same authority over the devil, we are all kings and priests, seated with Jesus at the right hand of the Father. As to various rolls in the church structure, absolutely there are various rolls and responsibilities, and God equips each one with the gifts of the spirit as He sees the need. And Yes I read Erich's post again, and again, the fact that the 12 are foundations in the Body of Christ has nothing to do with what we are discussing. Also I see no merit in the link to the psychology lesson. You can call it pride or whatever, but I have inherited exactly the very same power over the devil as Paul had, and you have too, but you can't use it if you don't believe you have it. I direct you to Ephesians 1:18-23 , please read it again. Last Post

JCISGD As I understand the bible on the issue of The function of the Body of Christ today, ,,,,, Jesus is the head, we (the church), are His body here on the earth. We are seated with Him at the Right hand of the Father in heavenly places, Eph 2:6. Whatever we bind or loose here on earth, is bound and loosed in heaven, IOW, we take our instructions from the Holy Spirit , who is Christ, the Head of the body. Jesus' words in the gospels tell us that He has given HIS BODY all power, (authority) over all the power of the enemy. (If we take Jesus' words as spoken only to the 12 or 70, then we are left out in the dark, because there are no specific words of instruction to the rest of the body of Christ in the gospels. ) No, Jesus gave instructions to the body of Christ, US. As JCISGD said above, If I try to cast out demons by my name, or any other name, except Jesus, then I will fail. The Body of Christ is completely equipped today, just as it was in the beginning, and if we don't realize the authority we have been given, then we will fail to carry out the instructions of Christ to His body, and as a result, we will fail to carry out the great commission. I only bring up the issue of Yea or nay on the uniqueness of the 12 and 70, to illustrate how the belief that " they had it, and we don't", creates the feeling of inadequacy in the Body of Christ. which is a form of faithlessness . I agree that the 12 were the foundation laid by Christ, someone had to be first, but that does not take away the fact that we all receive the fulness of the inheritance. the whole of Ephesians attests to that. Does the world today not still need the power that was meant to accompany the gospel ? That is where you are wrong, Franky. When Christ went to the Father, He sent His Spirit to be with us and His Spirit gives gifts according the the Fathers will. You seem to be forgetting all about the Holy Spirit. One thing that stands out in your all posts is that you stand solely on the words of Jesus, as if the rest of scripture does not matter. I have to ask at this point, are you a Christ Only follower? No, I am not of any denomination. I mentioned the whole book of Ephesians, I believe the book of Galatians gives us truth of who we are in Christ. My bible is marked throughout !!! But please tell me specifically where I am wrong in my statements above. Gifts are manifested in the body as the Holy Spirit sees the need, so I don't see what the problem is of us seeing ourselves as described by Paul in Ephesians and Galatians ch. 3 someone above mentioned the scripture where Jesus says at judgment, "I never knew you, depart from Me" God is a heart checker, and if we operate in the flesh as pertaining to the gifts, and we don't have love, then it's all for nothing.

JCISGD As I understand the bible on the issue of The function of the Body of Christ today, ,,,,, Jesus is the head, we (the church), are His body here on the earth. We are seated with Him at the Right hand of the Father in heavenly places, Eph 2:6. Whatever we bind or loose here on earth, is bound and loosed in heaven, IOW, we take our instructions from the Holy Spirit , who is Christ, the Head of the body. Jesus' words in the gospels tell us that He has given HIS BODY all power, (authority) over all the power of the enemy. (If we take Jesus' words as spoken only to the 12 or 70, then we are left out in the dark, because there are no specific words of instruction to the rest of the body of Christ in the gospels. ) No, Jesus gave instructions to the body of Christ, US. As JCISGD said above, If I try to cast out demons by my name, or any other name, except Jesus, then I will fail. The Body of Christ is completely equipped today, just as it was in the beginning, and if we don't realize the authority we have been given, then we will fail to carry out the instructions of Christ to His body, and as a result, we will fail to carry out the great commission. I only bring up the issue of Yea or nay on the uniqueness of the 12 and 70, to illustrate how the belief that " they had it, and we don't", creates the feeling of inadequacy in the Body of Christ. which is a form of faithlessness . I agree that the 12 were the foundation laid by Christ, someone had to be first, but that does not take away the fact that we all receive the fulness of the inheritance. the whole of Ephesians attests to that. Does the world today not still need the power that was meant to accompany the gospel ?

I did not exist at that time, but many today believe there are modern day apostles, so yes I could be an apostle, because unlike you, I believe I have received the fullness of the inheritance. I have not said a word of judgment against anyone here, but have received a measure of judgment for the things I believe. Is it out of anger because of an opposing belief, that you would call me vain and pridefull, or do you consider yourself my judge ? Another question came to mind, Do you believe that Paul was the last person ever to receive a revelation from Jesus, and then having been taught by Him? Paul never saw Jesus face to face, yet all Paul knew about the Messiah came by the Holy Spirit. Do you really think that The Holy Spirit has been silent ever since Paul? All that the Holy Spirit speaks today must agree with scripture. He helps us to understand the word.

Yes, I can if there is no teaching to the contrary. 1 Cor 12:12-30 does not negate my statement that every one of us is given the potential of fulfilling any task that God may give us. Any teaching to the contrary places doubt into the body of Christ. There is no teaching in God's Word that tells us that some may have, or had , more delegated authority, than others are given. You say my understanding of Colossians 2:10 is wrong. Paul is speaking to the believers at Colossae, telling them, that in Christ, they have been made complete. He did not mention any exceptions in what they had received, the inheritance is the same for every believer. Galatians 3:14 says "in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the gentiles so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit, through faith" And Galatians 3:29, says " If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise." There are no exceptions as to what's in the promise. The promise is the Kingdom of Heaven, there is only one Kingdom, and only one inheritance. Yes, God does assign different tasks in the Body of Christ, but we must have the confidence that whatever our task, He will, by His Holy Spirit residing in us, that we can accomplish whatever He tells us to do. I have more then once pointed you to 1 Corinthians 12:12-30 where it clearly states: Unity and Diversity in One Body 12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body

Well, I think the discussion about whether or not the 12 and 70 had unique powers has about run it's gamut. The conclusion, as I see it, is that most of you here have been taught, to one extent or another, that the things Jesus, and the 12 and 70 did were special and unique giftings for that day and time. And that these gifts are no longer needed today. Which nicely explains why there isn't much of that happening. What Jesus taught to those around Him, and anyone else who have ears to hear, is that He came to bring the Kingdom of Heaven to earth. He demonstrated what that Kingdom consisted of. He told them to Heal, deliver, restore, and gave them the authority to do these things. He ALSO told to tell the people they ministered to, that "The Kingdom of Heaven had come near them. So the Kingdom of Heaven is all the things Jesus demonstrated. Paul said in 1 Cor. 4:20 the the Kingdom of God consists, not of words, but of power. Ephesians teaches us that all believers are endowed with that same power, Colossians 2:9,10 say that "For in Him, all the fulness of deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him, you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority." That word complete as used in the Greek language means, perfect supply, completely furnished. IOW, all we need to accomplish all that God tells us to do. And this applies to all of us , the 12, and 70 included. When we don't know who we are, and what we possess, in Christ, then we are weak, and unable to do the tasks that God the Holy Spirit gives us to do. We are ambassadors for Christ. One of the brothers just said that his church prayed for a woman, that God would heal her. Eventhough the prayer was worded wrong, she was healed, because God is a "heart Checker" and so she received her healing. It was worded wrong, because not one single time did Jesus tell the ones He sent out to pray and ask God to heal, Jesus told them to heal the sick, He said for them to do it, because He gave them the authority to heal. Frustrated because it would take a book to explain , but guess what ? there is one that does just that, the bible. We don't seek for a sign, we seek the Kingdom of Heaven, His will on earth as it is in Heaven. Jesus is the messenger of the covenant, in Him ALL the promises of God are Yes and Amen.

But do you believe....... Were they gifted with powers and insight that no believer since then has been given? I believe they had the authority to write inerrant scripture. Something no believer today has. It is probably more a question of roles than specific gifts or insight. Point that I am trying to make is that we, today are inheritors of everything that they were, and IF God sees fit to anoint any one of us , He has given us the wherewithall to accomplish His will. What I don't like about believing that the 12 or 70 had special powers, and, or gifts, is that it tends to destroy faith. One today, might say, "How can we lay hands on the sick, and see them recover, that was only for the apostles." And that mindset HAS destroyed faith.

But do you believe....... Were they gifted with powers and insight that no believer since then has been given?

Not real sure, but I am beginning to think that many people who belong to churches are shacking up, and some how are able to justify their lives. Been married 56 years

Luke had first hand information. We do not. We can not even understand the simplest instructions of the Holy Spirit, let alone be trusted to write a book for His word. Be careful to not become to vain in your understanding, placing yourself into an election and calling that has not been assigned to you Quote by OneLight Reply by franky67 First hand or Holy Spirit, absolutely no difference with our supernatural God, He can anoint by His Holy Spirit today just as effectively as Jesus did in person, when He sent out the 12 or70. You're saying we are all today at a disadvantage, because we were not there in person with Jesus. In no way has God set that up. First, the 70 had no power until after they returned. You should read what has been discussed already. Secondly, God did not set up the gifts of the Holy Spirit the same way Jesus gave authority to the Disciples. You really should study the differences of the two. Thirdly, No where did I say that we are at a disadvantage. If anything, God's will is still being done according to His plan. If you think we are at a disadvantage because He is not giving the same authority to the church today as He did the Apostles, you do not know scripture as well as you think. Quote by OneLight Reply by franky67 No, you have read it wrong, the 70 DID have power when He sent them out. Here's why.... In Luke ch 10, verse 9 Jesus tells them to heal those in the house who are sick, and tell them that Kingdom has come near to them. Jesus gave them authority then. He reminds them, in detail of this in verse 19 Then in verse 17, they return with joy because of their success in using Jesus' name. Then, in verses 19, and 20 Jesus tells them, "I have given, (past tense), you authority, etc...", but don't rejoice in that, (which they did in verse 17), but rejoice that your names are written down in Heaven." So, in summary, Jesus gave them authority, they went out and used it, and then came back rejoicing about how well it worked. Remember, in verse 17 , they said that even the demons were subject to them when they used Jesus name. So they DID go with power, (exousia) delegated authority. The 12 used Jesus' name, for instance at the Gate Beautiful Acts ch 4, Peter said to the crippled man, "In the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, walk." Then you said, " God did not set up the gifts of the Holy Spirit the same way Jesus gave authority to the Disciples" quote by OneLight Where do you get this idea ? The work of the cross has provided everything every believer will ever need to accomplish whatever God the Holy Spirit tells them to do. Then you said, " No where did I say that we are at a disadvantage. If anything, God's will is still being done according to His plan. If you think we are at a disadvantage because He is not giving the same authority to the church today as He did the Apostles, you do not know scripture as well as you think." quote by OneLight reply by franky67 That's how it came across, You said, "Luke had first hand information. We do not. We can not even understand the simplest instructions of the Holy Spirit, let alone be trusted to write a book for His word. " Again, reread Ephesians

QUOTE In a face to face discussion recently on this subject, I was asked the question, "Could you write a book in the new testament, as the true apostle Matthew did.? My answer was yes, The Holy Spirit can write through me the same as He did Matthew. Luke wrote a book, and he was not listed among the twelve. Luke had first hand information. We do not. We can not even understand the simplest instructions of the Holy Spirit, let alone be trusted to write a book for His word. Be careful to not become to vain in your understanding, placing yourself into an election and calling that has not been assigned to you quote by onelight First hand or Holy Spirit, absolutely no difference with our supernatural God, He can anoint by His Holy Spirit today just as effectively as Jesus did in person, when He sent out the 12 or70. You're saying we are all today at a disadvantage, because we were not there in person with Jesus. In no way has God set that up. You say we can not even understand the simplest instruction from the Holy Spirit. I suggest you reread the 2 chapter of 1 corinthians especially verse 16, which says "we have the mind of Christ" So Yes I can write whatever God tells me to write, and if so it would not be in a spirit of vanity, but in the knowledge that it would be for His glory, if done with a pure heart. God is a "heart checker". You all who have assumed that God has given a greater wherewithal to accomplish the tasks given the ones with Jesus, than all other followers since that time. You have made an assumption, because there is not one teaching along those lines, ie, the uniqueness of the twelve and seventy apostles. in the entire new testament. There is, however a very structured teaching of this belief in some of the major theological seminaries. One verse by Paul in 2 Cor 12:12 "The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles." This one verse does not establish this assumption as truth. Jesus was very well aware of those who would follow after the first apostles, because He counted them in His prayer in John 17:20 where He prayed for those later, who would believe through their word. If this were truth, then the Holy Spirit is silent as to instructions for the rest of us. We would have instructions in the Word of God on how to spread the gospel, without confirmation by God's power. But some seminaries are not silent, their lessons, teach, "now that we have the canon, the signs and wonders are no longer necessary, we have the printed bible." No, Jesus never taught that, neither should man teach it. So what do they teach, How to preach a sermon, how to fill "the preaching hour" with great words of wisdom learned at school. Christianity has evolved into listening to preachers. Acts 4,, Peter and John prayed that when they spoke the word of God with confidence, the Lord would extend His hand to heal, and that signs and wonders would take place in the name of Jesus. That is the way it should be , but it has evolved downward to mere words. Now it's clear why some denomination preachers quote Paul more than they quote Jesus. It's "Paul said this" and "Paul said that" No wonder, they don't believe Jesus was talking to us today. Pity The world is more populated today, than it was 2000 years ago, we need to be equipped with at least as much as the first apostles were. Where faith has not been trampled by man's teaching, God is proving the lessons taught by Jesus, and signs and wonders are taking place. Check out Rolland and Heidi baker's ministry in Africa.