justme7

well said!!!

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oops again

it sounds like folly!!!!!!! mainstream folly!!!!!!! lies and purposeful deception. taking GOD out of politics and public places is just part of the plan....the real plan: take GOD out of everything all together. with money, power, science, media, and propaganda the world seeks to forcefully turn us away from the LORD. if the tv is playing this during coverage of 'katrina', it is the anti-help.

super...well said and yes i do! i think you are absolutely on target about our church crisis. i don't think the youth is the whole of problem, but another by-product and manifestation of the crisis. our focus is off. you hit it on the head with the whole ministries thing. we are being tedious..micro managing religion. doesn't the Word mention straining out a gnat, but swallowing a camel. what a camel!!

not so much tubal...fear in this sense means awe and reverance, knowing that HE IS and being in awe of the hugeness of that. fear in the scripture you used has a different conatation, like to be alarmed,be afraid. whereas in the other scripture from proverbs its conatation is to reverence, respect, honor and awe. also the thing is that to know the hugeness of GOD may be at times exceedingly frightening. not to mention the fact that we as believers are perfected continually, but not yet perfect. as to thinking that if you fear GOD, you hate HIM.....it would be impossible to know and believe in GOD without fearing HIM somewhat. in the Bible GOD is referred to as the fear of Isaac. Jacob swore by the fear of Isaac--by his father's GOD.

scientific, how weird to say that GOD creating the heavens and the earth uses no real scientific methods(i understood that to be 'id')....GOD is the master scientist, whose understanding is so complete (whole as a matter of fact) that by that understanding HE hung the stars, created atmospheres, spoke both oceans and their boundaries into existence, not to mention made your body. very strange business! the article was an interesting read, but not in any way valid. our society and many of our leading scientists have adopted the humanistic view that sees man at the center of all things. that was not always the case. this entire country was founded in large part upon judeo-christian fundamentals. without the LORD, all of science can not help us. should children be taught about the LORD in school?? there was a time when prayer was an everyday part of children's school experience. these people are saying they want to teach our children the world's view of life. if they will be force fed the world's theories, why not share GOD's word with them as well?? the question for the biologists, mainstream scientists, and the whole humanistic movement is this: if you are so sure...if you have and can find all the answers...if you are confident in what you believe, why do you hide away from the challenge of this different belief. why do you feel the need to infiltrate us with your theories, and in always possible silence and bury GOD?? a man who has no worries and is confident in his character and belief is not afraid of the opposition. he bears with the opposition, because he believes wholly that he is right. he does not need to silence his challenger, because he is ready to answer for his doctrine. he does not need to mock his challenger, because it is with integrity that he has come to stand for and believe in his doctrine. i am not someone who goes around saying that children ought to be taught religion is school. infact, i have rarely thought about it. however, the topic of the paper was very interesting. i find it funny that we are a society that takes time to write papers about why it is best that we conceal truth and push theory. i think that the current usage and application of separation of church and state is backwards. the original idea was to protect the church from becoming a government, and to keep sacred that which is sacred. in it's original layout this government was largely designed to have GOD as its backbone....the definer of our inalienable rights. it was understood by most that GOD is the lawgiver and the government was to be accountable to that Lawgiver as was the common man. "if we are not governed by GOD, then we will be ruled by tyrants" --william penn. "A republic once equally poised must either preserve its virtue or lose its liberty"--john witherspoon. "He is the best friend of American liberty who is most sincere and active in promoting pure and undefiled religion."--john witherspoon, who was a signer of the declaration of independence. much of America's first residents came from Europe for religious purposes. most of them established civil governments, which were based on the Bible. in knowing that it is almost ridiculous to imply that the original meaning of 'separation of church and state' calls for a secular state. for that reason, i find it funny that we are now a society that wishes to pervert not only the truth, but also the law. we want now to make illegal what was at one time viewed as both natural and neccesary. i have rambled on...sorry! that article really got my motor running. i think that paper while well written, was deceptive in content. if these are your views i do not mean in any way to insult you. i do mean to say however that GOD is truth...absolute truth. science and theory will never accomplish in all of this world's existence what GOD accomplished in its very creation. that paper and this humanistic view is deception through and through. how can a vessel say to its Maker, you did not me?? amber

tubal, yes, GOD, who did not in any way have to; who exists always and continually; the CREATOR did indeed send JESUS, through whom all things were created by and for, to the earth in the form of a man. you seem to be getting stumped by the power and compassion of GOD all at once. GOD who IS can do anything at anytime and in anyway for HIS will and purpose. in HIS infinite compassion, HE (who can do all things), sent JESUS, that we might see in the flesh the ONE who has overcome the flesh and by whom we might know life. sure did!!!!!!! as for common sense....the fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom!!(just the beginning!) the LORD makes foolish the wisdom of man. the most adept common sense, with no regard or acknowledgment of the LORD, is completely backwards. we are not. i am not. you are not. whatever books or philosophy we can buy into are not. HE IS. without that knowledge and belief, all sense (be it common or un) is failing.

you are right luke! what an awesome scripture. the name I AM alone completely blows me away. HE so IS!!!!!!!

it's cool to know that there are others who find themselves up til the wee hours of morning here and there. there's nothing better than a storm to watch on a hard to sleep night. hope you get rested for work.

That's the point I was at about 15 years ago. But rather than let it ride, I researched. The reason why I never got into a ministry in the first place was that I could not accept the entire doctrine of the church I wa studying in. I questioned the teachings of the authors and found out soon what fabrication was. It amazes me how many twist, turns and spins translators take to fit their doctrine. I research it all from every side and try not to contradict any other scriptures whether prophecy or doctrine. You are going to be fine regardless. The issue and question I have always had is... If the lord's return is just day's away, and your are either unaware of it or in denial of it because the mainstream end time scenario of the revived Roman empire is not taking place, where would ones sense of urgency be if he believes Jesus return is 7 years away, when it is two day's away? It's possible that the money making big shot's of prophecy may never admit that their theory of the RRE is in error. Some will. It will be up to you to see the difference and the urgency of the time in which we live. I will post a new thread on how to study prophecy by a man named "Walid". Please read this. I just found it about a month ago and was in amazement how identical his beliefs are to mine. God bless. The article is called "Islam and the Final Beast". Rev. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> just wanted to add my opinion here: this faith is urgent period! whether JESUS comes tonight or forty years from now, let our urgency remain and not fail. i, for one, have no idea when HE is coming. i see the lawlessness of this world. i hear of the disasters, and wars, and rumors of wars...........i see the birthpangs. still, i do not know when HE will come. this faith is still and always urgent. i don't know when the keeper of the house is coming back, but i urgently desire that whenever HE comes, i am found ready and prepared. because we see the lawlessness at work right now, we ought not be naive ( able to discern seasons etc, but not the times). this faith was meant to be urgent no matter the time frame of CHRIST's return. it was urgent to David, to Peter, and Paul way back then.....it is still urgent. as for the coming deception, let us all in the urgency of this faith pray that we see with clear eyes and are not deceived or persuaded by any man. i do not wish to panic or be distracted by end time anxiety. i wish to wait patiently and knowingly. i wish to be found studying and praying; faithful and seeking.

wow! while i do not believe that spiritual gifts have ceased (because i believe that, 'that which is perfect' is JESUS CHRIST), i do believe that this can be taken out of context. i think that the Word tells us later in the same book guidelines for some of these gifts. this is such a touchy subject! when i first got saved, i went to a church of the denomination belief that gifts (prophecy, tongues, miracles) had ceased. they aimed to teach me that the Bible is that which is perfect. when i moved a year later, i found myself in a different church....whose denominational belief was that the gifts do exist; that each believer has access to each one if their faith is strong enough, and that not only was tongues a gift, but a requirement and mark of true acceptance. needless to say, that is alot of confusion. as far as i am concerned there is a more balanced and right interpretation of scripture. reading on my own, i am led to believe that all gifts do still exist. i do not myself expect to see the miracle of healing every day or in every service, but know that GOD is still a GOD of signs and wonders. i do not expect to hear prophecy every day or in every service and know that the test of a true prophet is whether his/her words are shown to be true. i do not expect to see and hear tongues in every service, but know the Biblical guidelines for tongues and know they do still exist. i believe that GOD is able at any time to bring about change, revelation, revival in any way HE chooses. HE is a GOD without limits. as for my personal experiences, i found both the doctrinal beliefs above (personally) to be extreme and inaccurate.

this same type of technology is being thought about for uses of identification in places like China. i think that the main point is, yes, we do have the technology. while tracking devices for known pedifiles does not fall under the 'mark of the beast' category, we can all see that this technology has the potential to bring prophecy to fulfillment. whether this type of technology will be used or not, we do all know that the 'mark' must be literal......eventually (if in our lifetime), there will be a mark neccesary to buy and sell. in my mind that is the determining factor. when i first read of this technology and it's possible ramifications, my very first thought was of the 'mark' naturally. i guess there's no telling how it will actually come, only the knowledge that it will. freaky business! i pray that we the body can see with clear eyes and deny this hideous mark in faith, when (if in our lifetimes) it is imposed upon us. whether or not we should track pedifiles?? yes, but in this way??? not so sure. the way that the gov. has been tracking them is somewhat ineffective. even though they are suppose to register wherever they live, so many do not. having known a pedifile and seen the life of a child destroyed by one, i do think the issue is more than serious and find a means of effectively keeping track of them desirable.

yomo---cool question! my personal opinion is this: we know the law portions of the OT, were for Israel, GOD's people. the rest of the OT is mostly history of GOD and man, or GOD and HIS people, Israel. we can read them and know that they are benificial to us, even though they were not directed to or told to us personally. the neat thing is that the OT is like a prelude to the NT. they somewhat mirror eachother, having always common themes. in the NT we find that Abraham is now the father of all who believe. so here we go... the NT speaks to us, even though the epistles are written to specific groups of people, because we believe now, we are lumped together with those who believed then. the things that we absolutely know we must follow are the words of JESUS. the words of JESUS when followed, cover the ten commandments as well. the NT tells us directly that specific dietary and cultural laws (ie...pork/circumcision) are not neccesary any longer. the OT set GOD's people aside by behavior and tradition, whereas the NT focuses on being set aside by faith and the condition of one's heart. the Bible answers your question perfectly...explaining in the NT that all scripture is benificial to the believer, explaining what food and cultural laws have changed, explaining that all the law and the prophets hang on our final and full command from JESUS (love the LORD your GOD/love your neighbor as yourself) , and explaining the character and heart of CHRIST. i may have rambled, but i meant well. amber

i agree. there is nothing new under the sun right?? some parts of the Word, namely the NT, speak to us as believers and yet were still written to a particular people in that time frame. in the OT we see history of GOD's dealings with man. both are perfect and useful for reproof, instruction, edification etc. somehow, in actuality, the whole of the Word speaks directly to us....not always in the sense that we should do this or that (OT), but in the sense that here is GOD's Word and HE is continually saying know Me....know Me....know Me.

brolarry: i totally understand where you're coming from. i know someone exactly like this, and the questions that perplex me are how? why? i have come to believe that these people are deceived. they have not put on the love of CHRIST. the truest testimony of any believer is a changed life. how can someone love the LORD and be unchanged?? i would not feel comfortable saying that these people are not saved, but do definately believe that they are somewhat deceived. it's almost as if satan has a stronghold in their lives. it is quite alarming to see uncalled for and extreme anger in believers. it seems uncharacteristic and rightly so. i have probably been zero help. but, i have had the same question and came to the conclusion that the person i know must be deceived somehow.

i always understood this as lot's wife looking back at sin....that we as believers when we are called out, ought not look back at that sinful state longingly, and neither give it our attention when it beckons. i never even thought to consider the symbolism of the salt itself. it was really interesting to read that it could refer to becoming tasteless. i would have thought of just the woman reduced to a sprinkle of salt right where she stood. that was very cool. i heard a great sermon one time that was sort of in the same vein. the message was basically about "camping near sin" or what i understood as entertaining it and still finding the world attractive. the preacher (strapazon...sp?). used lot as an example. first he chose that land because it looked attractive. then he pitched his tent close to the city. then he lived in the city. when he was taken captive and rescued, he returned to that land. it was so interesting and very vivid the way that he said. it is one of my favorite and most thought provoking sermons that i have ever heard.

i totally agree....God is faithful and sees into the hearts of men. He is infinitely bigger than any amount of wrong teaching. whosoever believes!! He is able to make any that trust in His name having faith, to stand!

i think we cannot perceive the workings of God. He is beyond our understanding. anything is possible with Him. when we abide in Him, we know Him; when we know Him, we know that He is faithful, and His promises fulfilled.

right on!!!!!!!

that is deception. really. that's somewhat of hiding in the dark. we'll pretend that God does not see, that He is not who He says He is. sin is a fact. hell-fact. heaven-fact. GOD=FACT. there is no amount of hiding away. peace is in God. there is temporary comfort for the discomfort of sin in denying that it exists at all. sin is so real. we can love wisdom or we can hate a rebuke, but sin is real either way. there has to be a reason why you are here on a christian forum, hearing about God and testing all things related. if you're worldview on this were solid as rock, why be here now in this christian forum? God is faithful in all things. those that seek shall find. you will find a Rock.

i guess i don't think much about the question of 'morality'. i tend to think that God gave those commands because He is righteous and cannot be less. He desired to share that righteousness, that absolute truth with us. i guess what i mean is God is truth. no matter what situation, circumstance, people, or group that truth cannot be made relative. i see it as not so much a matter of morality but that of truth....of knowing and adhereing to that truth. those commands were truths and wisdom, showing the character and righteousness of Himself, and the love of Christ and our faith in Him fulfills that law. morality is like our word. what i mean to say is that i don't see it mentioned in the Bible. we are in the truth or we are out of it. it's not all behaviors for the sake of being good or right in a moment. there is really one truth, regardless of tradition or condition and that is the Lord God. morality seems to imply an acceptable or favored code of behavior in our society. many a 'moral man' is in need of the Lord who is more honorable than our morality. that's just me though.

i fully have faith in God for salvation and for life. He is faithful. i think that no matter what you want to call it or not call it.....we are called to a walk and a journey; into a relationship. it is by faith in Jesus Christ that we are made righteous. it is most definately not by works. nevertheless, working with the whole word....we know that faith without works is dead. the heart that is changed cannot help but to do works, not out of duty, but in love and awe and sincere belief that God is who He says He is. if we go around and say as a staple that once you're saved you're always saved, there comes along some silent antagonizer that implies there is no need of doing right. i believe i'm always saved. i know without a doubt that in more than one way i will sin tomorrow and fall short of perfection. however, i know that this walk also asks for my diligence, my watching, my praying, my putting on the full armor. the cool thing is that i know that all that is asked of me is also provided for me. He is my way. my abiding in Him is necessary. should we sin that God's grace would abound?? absolutely not. i personally think that no matter what theological veins we might try to dwell in, the word is the whole truth. i go to a baptist church, where the belief is once saved always saved. i believe that i am always saved. i believe that He dwells in me and is stronger than my weakness. i cannot say for a person who is not changed by the word of God; whose heart and life do not show His grace and mercy, 'no worries, if you accepted the Lord when you were eight you still have Him as surety no matter what you do from here on out.' i simply cannot because i don't know that for sure. what i do know is that there were many Israelites who knew God was; who left egypt and followed moses into the desert, who were fed with manna from heaven, who God went before and behind in pillars of smoke and fire....etc, who lost their lives due to their unbelief. these were people who continually went againt God and doubted Him, people who in some way threw down His gifts and counted them as common. i know that they almost all died and that caleb and joshua, because of faith and active belief in Him were spared. that's pretty much what i'm sure of. i think that the idea and real sense behind OSAS is pretty accurate. i also think we live in a society and time where we are so jaded and our hearts are so hardened that we tend to want to hide under these blanket statements. i think that there is a devil and that he is a prowler, wanting always to deceive God's people and always to divert and distract us. it is our personal responsibility to tend to our relationship with God. we must work this out with fear and trembling. when we get too into doctrines, we tend to get stuck there always accepting or disputing a stance. let Christ be our stance. no matter what you believe OSAS or not, we are to be changed. Charles Spurgeon used to make a house visit to confessing believers about a week or two after their confession. he would spend time talking to and being in the atmosphere of these new converts. if he saw no change--no manifestation of renewal in Christ, he would say to them, i don't know what you did last sunday but you did not get accept Jesus into your heart, or something along those lines. is this right or wrong?? i don't know but it makes some sort of sense to me. it is impossible for us to abide in Him and not be changed, and so faith without works is dead. i find it hard to resolve the parable of the sower, if we are not marked by changed hearts and rooted in Him. some of that seed was blown away, scorched, and withered. we won't always know for sure the whole condition of the next believer's true heart. what we can do is take aims to keep our hearts on Him. what we must do is be accountable.

the defending of the faith is found throughout the Bible. you find many examples of the disciples defending the faith....showing by example of the word, that God is; that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that works alone do not save, that the gospel of the Lord is truth. there had to be quite alot of 'apologetics' involved in showing a tradition based israel nation and a pagan world that there is one God, that Jesus Christ is His Son who came in the flesh, died for our sins and rose again for our justification. the way i understand it is that apologetics is basically defending the faith.....being able to answer questions and to show in word and faith that Christ is the Lord, our Savior. i think that defending the faith, which really comes down to spreading this message, is completely Biblical. it may not have been called 'apologetics' , but there was plenty of defending this faith in the New Testament. **i have always wandered why we call it apologetics. that sounds alot like apology, and we don't mean to apologize for being ready to answer our faith. regardless, if one asks you a hard question they are inquiring about the LORD, which means they want to know something about Him. i want to be ready to tell it. sometimes the telling and the answering of questions makes a difference in people's lives. often times! think of paul and the 'unknown God'. he had to get in there and say there is a God unknown to you and He is the God; the one and only Mighty God, I AM, God who sees all. what if he had no answer, no inclination to defend and share? arguments and cirling round and round differences are not always edifying and can be very harmful, but defending this faith and the God we trust is edifying to believers and non-believers alike.