Shelby

Thomas, Welcome. I have been there lately. I have recently had a conversation through IMing to my cousin. We have always been very close. Even though we live far apart, we have always picked up where we left off when I came to visit. REcently (Last Christmas) he "came out" as being gay. HE used to be "Super Republican" and all about Reaganomics etc. So we were chatting about the house that he and his boyfriend just bought. Discussing carpet types and colors. Then the conversation diverted. I asked him a rhetorical question if he was still "Super Republican". He said "not really" so I said something like, "well, we'll miss you!". Then he WENT OFF! He eventaully asked why, and I said one main reason was my Christian beliefs. And as soon as I said that, He called me awful names, called me a "Bible Thumper" and since I go to church and work for The Salvation Army, he told me, "Go beg for some money!". We haven't really spoken since. I think he has blocked me. He called me intolerant, etc. Not 10 minutes earlier we were talking about a house he owns with his "boyfriend" and I was very nice. Ted knew where I stood ont hat issue, I didn't think it was something I needed to state over. I just wanted him to know that as always I still loved him despite his choices. REally, I was taken back. Because the minute I said I was a Christian he laid into me. Who was really intolerant? I asked him why it was such a suprise? I am an ordained minister. His mom and dad came to my ordination. He has seen me in that capacity at my grandparents funerals. I don't know what changed, but He freaked. I think it is his guilty conscious. I love him, and always will. I was hurt deeply at his intolerance. I have been a Christian since I was 14. I have always been the "goodie goodie" in my family. (Not on purpose, a label given to me). Long story I know, but I have never felt that so much until that happened. Also in the media. WE are always portrayed as some crazy judgemental freaks who are anal about rules etc. NOT EVEN! MHO - And welcome!

In our churches case, Shelby, single women officers are still under authority (DC's, THQ's, etc) so we are still within Biblical guidelines. I was just saying I agreed with what the woman missionary did, letting the local men who rose up from her ministry to pastor their congregation in their community. Also, I think the explanation of the passage establishing submission of women to their husbands authority is a more accurate take on that passage. I know Katie. But people keep throwing out the words "Senior Pastor". THere are many in our church who are that and a woman. 2nd, we do have DCs, TCs, etc who are over us who might be men, BUT what about Eva Burrows? That is what I mean. I have read through the discussion after this, (sorry I ahve been on vacation, that is what took so long), and I see that the disticntion has been made between your husband and pastor, verses any man on earth. JMHO

What about single Women ministers?

Well the Woman at the well. She had no particular husband at that time, but had already had 5, but after her meeting with Jesus she went out and witness and people were saved because of this. (John 4:39) No man over her. She did what she felt compelled to do. HE didn't say, "WOMAN, go tell everyone I am here" he didn't have to, he moved in her life. She left her bucket even and just went.

I know that i am young, trust me .... how could I forget when the ppl on this site remind me of it almost daily? I do get what you're saying about marriage being unique and that I haven't experienced that yet. However, I disagree (to an extent) that it is not something you can prepare for. Of course, you can't be 100% prepared, but preparing for things (such as callings and destinies) is biblical. Much of the New Testament is for the purpose of equipping the saints. The primary role of parents is to train and prepare their kids for adulthood (which would hopefully include serving God and for some it will include marriage). What I was saying above is, though I don't know what it's like to have a husband ... I am already being trained to understand, recognize and respect authority. I have already begun practicing obedience (I mess up quite a bit, but I'm still learning). I guess I get frustrated that some tend to dismiss me because of my age and automatically disqualify me from offering anything to a discussion. To me, this violates the encouragement in 1 Timothy 4:12 and denies that God could impart wisdom to anyone. But back to marriage and authority, this is something I've been taught: The word "submit" in Greek is "hupotasso". It means to subordinate, to obey, etc. When it's used in the Bible, it refers to a position that's not voluntary. Meaning that a person in a position to submit is technically (because of their position) "in subjection" or "subdued" already. It's not optional. I'ts a commandment. If we look, for instance, at 1 Peter 2:13a: "Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men". This clearly shows us that we are to be obedient to those in authority over us, does it not? That is correct, I guess you didn't get that I never argued with that point. I am and believe deeply in being a submissive wife.

Thanks Sue for joining us! We would love to hear from you more. If you want a smiley in the body of the text, to your left of you response you should see a box called clickable smiles and see a bunch of cute little smiles. Just click on it and a formula for it will appear, but when you submit your post it will show up! GBU

I agree with George. Great illustration. I might ask to borrow that sometime. But I believe and have said, that I think that we all believe the same basic doctrines. The ones that are necessary to salvation. Jesus died for our sins so that we might have eternal life. We must repent and turn from sin and ask forgiveness for those sins. We must daily read the word and pray so that we may stay in constant fellowship with our Lord. All the other things are fringe. God will give us greater understanding eventually, and ultimately, but for now, the smaller subjects which are just basically deciding what things are sins (in a nutshell). These things do not determine your salvation unless God has shown you a sin and you ignore it and continue in it. I have tried to keep this perspective lately because I do tend to take things personally and get wrapped up in a discussion which God will teach me about in due time. GBU

Angel, I do know where you are coming from and stated the likes a few times. But you know those that feel they must argue with everyone and rebell against any and all I think are the ones most searching and hurting. That is where it gets hard. Because it is not hard to respond immediately and give them a piece of your mind. I applaud you for doing that. This is why I am one who checks profiles constantly. I like to know who I am speaking to. I think the profilesgive great insight as to the how to respond to a 45 year old woman, as opposed to a 14 year old. There is a difference. You can draw different ways to relate to different people. I had to for a long time stay out of the general discussion forums because it did seem that everything anyone said was picked apart. It is hard, but lately I have really noticed that these people don't really know me. They cannot judge someone they don't really know. They have only read my feeble attempts at a response. So I choose to not defend myself any longer. I do knwo that I have had most if not all of those same thoughts. Keep your head up. I think it would be helpful to have more correct profiles, that don't divulge personal info, just sex and age range or just age. Not DOB or names. I just think it does put into perspective if you find your self getting caught up in a discussion about raising children and come to find out the person causing the largest part of your frustration is 15. It takes some real strength to stay sometimes. But I think of what I get from it, even just once in a while, the chance to show Jesus to someone. And challenge yourself to know God better so that you can better answer posed questions. GBU Keep your head up!

Papas Angel, I think first when he chose the original 12 that it was the culture also that constituted some of his decision as well. But think of the story of Martha and Mary. They were basically having a teaching session from Jesus in Martha's House (which it doesn't say she was married, and it says "Martha's House". She was Lazarus's sister, but it doesn't say Lazarus's house as would be the custom for her brother to take care of her if she ended up single, it says MArtha's house. So Jesus held a Teaching time in a single woman's house with her sister there. Odly enough it also never mentions if Lazarus is there during this part of scripture.) So I picture all of these men around. And then there is Mary. She knows that this is a once in a lifetime chance for her to learn about the scriptures since she would not be allowed to go to temple and learn as the men do. So she sits at Jesus feet and just basks in His glory and wisdom. Martha, trying to make everything perfect inher house, and wanting to do the customary thing, feed her guests, is in the kitchen getting so frustrated that Mary was not helping. I think this is why Jesus responded in kind when she implored that he make Mary help her. He wasn't discounting Martha's need to be a hostess, but helping her to see that Mary was taking advantage of an amazing opportunity. I can imagine that the converstation was much longer than is recorded. Then lets flip to Mary Magdalene. Later it speaks of 70 some odd disciples. I think that women were included. M Mag was with Jesus the entire time practically. I don't beleive she had any ties to any of the disciples, nor was she married to any of them. I think later she was a disciple. I think those who picked up everything and followed Jesus was a follower. We just don't have the names of all of them. Also to mention, it was the women who stayed after the crucifixion. The disciples left. I think Jesus did try to help women become a part of his ministry as well. But the culture of the time, wouldn't have recorded it that way, nor would they have thought it to be proper. But there are instances that show Jesus did push the ticket for women. Many instances. I think that him orginally picking 12 men just shows the human aspect of himself. He NEVER excluded women from any of his teachings. Something to ponder. The whole Mary Martha situation I have spent long and hard studying. I am a hostess. I love it, but for a while I felt jaded because of how Martha was gently put into perspective, but I totally understand now. GBU I hope this was a gentle response. I am having so much fun delving in to this study, and I do get a little excited.

Thanks, sorry I am at work, and couldn't grab my Bible right away.

And since then has been our demise! LOL jk Great thoughts. I don't know if Adam was standing right next to her. Where did you get that from?

No teaching in Christ is semantics they are part of remaining in Him. Semantics: to achieve a desired effect on an audience especially through the use of words with novel or dual meanings . Is not of God. That is what I meant. Picking and manipulating other peoples words to break down the conversation. It happens alot on these boards. But that is not the issue once again. Tess, I wrote so much more a moment ago, but my computer froze and I lost it all. the gist is, you are young. It is a good thing, but all the preparation in the the world could not get you totally ready for marriage. It is different than any relationship you will have in your entire life. I am still quite young, and I have been with my husband for 8 years, and married for 5. It is still a daily learning process to be married let alone a submitting wife. GBU my dear, but you cannot know the full spectrum, and I am glad you are getting ready. It isn't a bad thing though. It is great. I do not have children of my own yet, I have raised a beautiful young girl for the first 5 years of her life, but she wasn't mine. So it doesn't offend me when people tell me it is like nothing I have ever felt, and that I will not know how to deal with things until I am a parent myself. It isn't a jab at me, or my not having children, it is truth.

I hear you Naomi. Being that I am married, and I am guessing by Tess's age she isn't. That it is hard to understand the dynamics until you are here. I didn't understand it for the first couple years of my marriage. Control is a selfish act, having authority is an honor. God bestows Spiritual Authority to our husbands as a gift and responsibility to be the spiritual leaders of our households. He does not give control. He is in Control!

It is entitled "Divorce" I think. It should be in the controvercial. It is like 4th down. I have to run home now, but I will be checking through the evening. Be encouraged my friend. If God can call me, then he can call anybody! gbu

I did make a new topic. Yes, I do submit to husband and his spiritual authority. I am quite happy to!

Not at all I submit to my husbands Spiritual Authority.

Would God go against his own word? no he wouldnt.....if God went against the bible that would make it imperfect and as i am sure we agree on he is perfect nevermind, it is starting to hurt my brain to constantly hear the same things over and over. LOL See The past 50 pages it seems!

Now that is a new one!

You know I just posted this in another thread but I think it pertains here too. The question was: Why do Christians believe differently? We are human. Born into sin and only saved by grace. All we can do is live for Christ. Sure I disagree with people pn here, but I think that the basic things that are necessary to salvation we all agree on. 1- God came to us in the form of Jesus 2- Who died on the cross for our sins and rose again. 3- We must repent of our sins and dedicate our lives to the Lord 4 - We must live a daily life dying to self and glorifying God as best we can by reading the scriptures, praying and fellowshipping with fellow believers. The rest is semantics. God will deal with those other minute issues later. He spells it out really well. God will convict those of the sins in their life that are hindering their walk with Him. If that person chooses not to listen then it will be dealt with at judgement. But God will judge us by the sins we commit physically and in our heart that we have let get in the way. We will be judged by what we know. I know that God has called me to be a minister and I followed that will. He has called us to so much more though. And to get hung up on semantics and scripture picking is only taking the focus off God and onto ourselves to prove ourselves right. God will allow His spirit to work in all of us and convict and move in our lives in a way that will compell us to do away with sin, especially perpetual sin so that he may draw us closer. If God has laid it upon your heart to become a pastor again, then I say go for it. I have always told my husband and friends when they come to me for advice, walk in a direction that you feel God is leading you, if that is not what he wants for you pray that he will close the doors, and if it is to open them. You will get your answer. God will deal with the hearts of others. People will be touched by your humbleness and servanthood to Christ, and I believe this will be a non-issue. PLUS - That is one verse in a chapter and book of many more. Context my friend. Pray, pray , pray, it will never hurt to just take it back to the Lord every moment that you feel it take ahold of your mind. I know the struggle. I am a woman, I am an ordained minister. I have never questioned my call, it has never been an issue for me or anyone in my church. But I came here and there is such a controversy, but the controversy doesn't sway me, If it happens, it will be Christ. He has only confiirmed this calling of rmy life over and over through all of the discussions on this subject. God will give you the words you need. He will provide you with the road to walk down. I say start moving in a direction back to pastorhood, and if it is God's will it will happen, and if not, he will have something even better for you! I do believe that! GBU

Sorry I didn't answer. I failed to see the question in this post. Are you talking about having one wife or not? I am glad God allowed you to return to the pulpit for atleast a short time. It is an amazing experience. I have always loved being in the pulpit. I think I am most comfortable there when I am confident that God has written my sermon. Sometimes a sermon can be a struggle, but God can take my menial attempt at a sermon and breathe life into it if I seek Him. I have not really read that scripture thoroughly yet. I am at work right at this moment and do not have my study aids at hand. But I also need to take it into context too. It doesn't have really anything to do with this, or did you make the tie and I missed it. It is possible. I try to read through pretty quickly and that was one LONG post. But so nice to hear you testify. I have not been offended, and never intended to ignore your post, sometimes someone's post catches me and I get stuck on it, so I miss the ones around it. GBU

I watched it last night. Actually I Tivo'd it. It was a very good special. I am looking forward to seeing the follow up on these families. He had some really good points. I am definitely going to try them myself. I think that parents should HAVE to watch that one. It wasn't about personal opinion. He really was giving sound advice on how to get your house back in order. Great show! I knew how to do I would copy it and send it to you!

Thank you Katie. You always have such a wonderful way of bringing things back into perspective. I agree. No one except for an independant church does not answer to someone higher. And in my Church right now there is a man in charge (on an international level). But 10 years ago we had a woman, who did a marvelous job. We often do have women in charge in more local levels. But it all ends up at you and God and since I have no quams about that relationship regarding this subject I have no need to defend myself or my stance. GBU all!

Thus is your stance, and I have no reason to continue in this conversation because it is obvious that neither of us are getting anywhere, and this is definitely not edifying God or His church. This was stated by you early on in this thread. And I feel the same really. Just the polar opposite. It has never been and will not be an issue for me. It has never been a question in my mind that I am called to be a minister. I do not need your validation, nor do I need to prove to you anything. God has only solidified his calling on my life, and confirmed that I am following His will, by using His word and His Spirit, and through much prayer. SJ - It has never been my intent to defend myself, and I choose not to. Weak or whatever else you want to throw at me, will not be sufficient to make me compromise what I know God has laid on my heart. May God give you Grace in your understanding.

As for the last post, I will preach on that verse after God develops that sermon and I will try to remember to send you a copy when I am done. Second, I come back after 12 hours and poor Kelli has been put through the ringer. Some on here are bent on breaking her, and I applaud her for standing strong in the Lord and not letting that happen. I was reading and getting very heated and frustrated and can't say that I would have handled everything as well as she did. Someone asked me for proof, scripture to back up my GOD GIVEN calling and interpretation. You know, I am not going to scripture pick. And that is exactly what is happening. People are picking and choosing scriptures to defend their stance. I find that highly disrespectful to the word of God to pick and choose verses here and there. Yes, context is important, and NO God does not contradict himself, but he is only contradicting your interpretation of what you are picking and choosing. I have seen no more than 5 sentences to support your stance. What about the message of the WHOLE BIBLE????? Again, SJew I have no reason to defend myself to you. It is apparent the argumentative spirit you have brought to this discussion. We were just stating before you entered that we were so happy to have had such a heathly discussion without questioning fellow believers integrity and basically calling them liars. For those who told Kelli to leave if she couldn't hack it are just a bunch of bullies it seems. That is definitely not playing nice. I am married, and when my husband and I have a difference of opinion we definitly do not throw accusations and try and pick fights to belittle eachother. That is not a healthy discussion. We listen to what eachother has to say, and state our take on things, and then we discuss how to either come to a compromise if need be or an understanding to agree to disagree, or sometimes one or the other is swayed after respectfully listening to the pther person. (And no I am not going to go and quote every mean and disrespectful thing said here. You have eyes, go and read with an open mind and try and put yourself in Kelli's position) All this bickering and "yeah right! give me proof", "then you don't believe scripture is from God", "if you can't take the heat get out". (these are not direct quotes, just my interpretations of the tone of many of the posts in the last 12 hours) It is my take that some of you have hijacked a perfectly healthy discussion to argue. Well I will not argue. Like Kelli, I feel just as strongly that God has lead me to my understanding and if anything has confirmed it more through this awful bashing thread. I am a woman after God's heart, and it is obvious that it is not in this thread so I would like to bow out. (We'll see if that happens LOL) MHO

You know all of this scripture picking should be tempered with love and prayer. It does not feel that way. Porr Koppen, I have been away and see that you have been alone. I have to say that I am surprised GodMan at your posts. I find the questions very leading and somewhat condescending. To ask a Christian if they believe the Word of God to be infallible, and it was answered YES, then to imply that she must not think so if she is holding to the doctrine she has been lead to by God. God is calling men and women daily to take up their crosses and follow him. Who are we to judge who he might choose. I am a woman, and I went to seminary, and I have been ordained. I have and will be in a church in a head minister's position. It is not one I take lightly. I have men who work for me now, in various positions that I must instruct, because of my duties. I am not in charge of a church right now, my husband is preparing to enter seminary and after he is through we will go back to serving as ministers again. For now I have a professional job. There was so much in the way of culture and who was speaking to whom at the time scripture was written. As we search and read the word of God we should not be searching for scriptures to defend our positions, but to pray for the Holy Spirits leading, and keeping in mind the whole message of the Bible. I have no reason to scripture pick and get lost in semantics. I am a woman who was called by God at an early age, and no matter what I did God still lead me back to the conviction that he had called me. It has never been a question in my mind. God had so many chances to to move in my life and change the course but he didn't. To ask such things as Koppen is to question the integrity of both her mother, and me and any other minister such as Keslc that is a woman. If God has called us, and we are telling you that we have been lead by him, who are you to question our integrity. Like Mike Irish said, judge us by our fruits. And may you only be judged by the same and not your sex. I am not a feminist by any means, but I am proud to be a woman, and one who is called by God. Actually humbled at the enormous priveledge, and excited at the opportunities that he has and will provide for me to share His love with every one I come into contact with. This was never a calling I took lightly and do not either, so to see such things written by those who need specific facts, I say, what about the Holy Spirit???? God can use anyone, ANYONE, if they are a willing vessel. MHO