keslc

Well, I believe that we are not to have intiimate relationships (sexual) with members of the same sex nor with anyone who we are not married to of the opposite sex, so I would answer your question, yes. However, that may not mean a life alone or without a mate. I know it may seem impossible now, but if you give your life over to God, He will transform you and in time, you may find a Godly man who will treasure you above all other women and you may learn to love him. It is possible, even if it doesn't seem like it. I'm still praying for you. :hug:

Shelle, Glad to hear from you. Of course it's been hectic, don't worry about calling me, concentrate on the family. We love you guys sooo much! We are praying very hard! Jen told me to tell you she is praying and asking all of her co-workers and friends to pray too. (I was talking to her when I found out) Please tell Greg we are remembering him during this time. :hug: :hug: :hug:

In the Bible Jesus says that if a son asks his father for a piece of bread, the father wouldn't give him a stone or if the son asks his father for a fish to eat, he wouldn't give him a snake. God, our Heavenly Father, is even better than that. He will not leave us empty or standing with a snake in our hand. By all of that I mean to tell you that it may seem scary that in order to follow God we may be asked to "give up" something or "deny" something about ourselves. However, when we are faithful to obey and trust Him, He will provide a much better alternative for us. A good illustration of this was a story I saw about a little girl who saved her allowance to buy a plastic pearl necklace out of the bargain bin at the grocery store. Each night her father would tuck her into bed and ask if she would give him her necklace. The daughter refused several times. The father would accept his daughter's refusal, but ask her again the next night. Finally, after many nights of this when the father asked her to, the girl handed him her necklace through tears. It was very difficult to give it away. Once she surrended the necklace to him, he was prepared to give her a REAL pearl necklace in it's place. God is much like that. He asks us to give up all of the junk we hold dear because He has a much better plan. We are like that girl, though, who can't see what we cling to as "junk" and yes it is difficult and hard to part with certain things in our lives. God is also not going to demand and rant and rave until we surrender, but will gently ask us and wait. It is our choice...to hold onto junk or trust Him in the plans He has for us. He loves us and wants to show us what is best for us, but we need to trust Him. I know it's hard to understand and beleive, but can you find the faith, just the size of a mustard seed, to say you're going to take God at His word and give your life to Him to be restored? I am praying that you can find that faith. :hug:

Again, thanks for all of the prayers. I have been trying to contact Shelby all day and have not gotten a hold of her. I am guessing they are making arrangements to fly out east to be with the family. When I do talk to her, I will let her know you have been praying and I will send an update!

Thank you everyone! Here is what I know so far: Father in law: 3 fractured ribs, fractured L-1 vertebrae, chest x-rays to be done Mother in law: Broken thigh bone (having surgery to place a pin in it) and knee replacement Mother in law's mother: Cuts to her head, broken hip, hand and pelvis, in ICU Mother in law's sister: Critical condition and prognosis is not good, broken all legs and arms, internal injuries and heart damage. I will post updates as I hear them

I'm in agreement with the others here. I think we all know how it is to do something "stupid" and we've all been there. Regardless, we do love you and keep you in our prayers! :hug:

Please pray for Shelby! We just received word that her parents - in - law were in a horrible car accident and are severely hurt! Please hold her and her family up in prayer today!! Thank you!!

This topic came up quite a few months ago as well. Dad Ernie made me thinkk of something else in one of his posts. While I do believe what I wrote here in the thread I linked a few posts back: I still pose this question I wrote a few months back when this was brought up:

May I direct people to read this discussion as well on the subject? just if you'd like to read some more input. is it sin discussion

Read Romans 8 as well. We are all born with a "sin nature" for some that sin manifests itself into a lifestyle of lying or cheating or stealing or homosexuality or _______(fill in the blank). And we are powerless to free ourselves from that sin nature. That's why there is a need for Christ. He condemned sin in sinful man. He made if possible for us to live according to the Holy Spirit rather than according to the sin nature. If we are filled with the Holy Spirit we will walk according to it. Society however wishes to nurture that sin nature to justify the sins that have become "accepted" and " normal". Please understand that I am not saying that christians who live according to the Spirit are perfect. I believe we do make mistakes and we will struggle and fall as long as we live in a fallen world, but we are not "slaves" to sin and when someone says "I'm born that way" it is an excuse.

1 Corithians chapters 12-14 also speaks quite a bit on gifts. I'm afraid if I post my personal ideas (through my study of these scriptures and what I feel I have been led to know about them) about spiritual gifts, it may start something. This is one of those areas that christians have perhaps different thoughts on. (Usually along lines of what their denomination teaches) It is important though to consider and study spiritual gifts and come to God when we have questions about them. As someone already said, He will guide you in what He would have you to do for HIS Glory, be obedient to Him! Take care!

Well, I'm not saying justified in the eyes of God, but in the eyes of man. The paradigm often presented to justify women being in authority over men is that scripture is taken out of context (yet they never substantiate how) and that they know God is calling them to be a pastor. It all looks fine on the surface, but, well, take this as an example: "Yes, I'm a homosexual. The Bible doesn't talk against homosexuality, the scriptures people list are taken out of context and were meant for the culture of the day. I know God is calling me to be a minister." So it's the same logic. The paradigm Shelby used (and I'm not picking on shelby, just showing the problems with the way of thinking) could easily be used to justify others to become pastors who aren't qualified. Not only do I think it's okay, I think it should be mandatory for husband and wife to attend seminary together and be co-pastors. Obviously the male would have the final authority (as in your case), but there is biblically nothing wrong with what you presented. Again thanks for your response SuperJew. I do appreciate it! I understand how Shelby's viewpoint came across and was viewed, however, she is in the exact same boat as I am. Same situation. (even if her approach differed from mine) I understand the defense you are speaking of and how that is not a great defense and that others have used the same defense. However, this is not exactly what Shelby and I were meaning I can see where you see that though). Yes, I do think there is some misunderstanding on these scriptures and some people may take the word of other people or their "doctrines" as the final word and never consult God Himself in understanding what is being said by Paul. I think we were only trying to point out the danger in that scenario as well. Now, because she is my friend and sister in Christ, I feel I do need to say that I know Shelby and she is very sincere in seeking the Lord and His will for her life (she is an awesome witness to me in my life, saved me in literally my marriage by knocking some Godly sense into me once and I would give my life for her). She may have a hard time expressing herself and such, but she is a girl following after God with all her heart. (BTW, SJ, this is not directed at you, I'm speaking in general, just for clarification) Also, I believe Shelby holds the same ideas I have in regards to being a "co-pastor" with her husband and not being the one to mentor or disciple a man or group of men, as I stated in earlier posts. I think there were a few people even disagreeing with that type of situation and that was what was difficult a bit. I think in the whirlwind of the internet there were misunderstandings, assumptions, and difficulties hearing each other and perhaps difficulties in expressing ourselves which has led to hurt and unrest in our family. I pray each of us will take this and learn from it by seeking the Lord in everything and learning to grow more dependant on Him each day. ( I know I am continually learning that!) and that even if we cannot come to aggreement on issues like this, that we would still remember who we are and WHOSE we are and we would not allow Satan reign in our house. I know you are all in agreement with that. Bless you all. :hug:

Super Jew, Thank you for your response! however, I'm not quite following what you are saying here. (it's me, not you, lol) I don't see how an adulterer or homosexual can be justified ever (except after repentance, maybe) in holding a ministry position. I probably just not getting what you mean. Also, regarding this.... The underlined statement...what of this? In our church, husbands and wives attend seminary together and are both ordained. Then they are sent to pastor a church together. I agree that I should never hold a position in which I am mentoring or discpling a man or group of men (I think there are issues in which men and women should not discuss with people of the opposite sex unless they are married to that person, and there are too many issues of safety, appearances, temptations, etc.) However, I may be in a position to make decisions regarding the church, etc. I also would still be under submission to my husband in our pastoral roles as well as our marriage. Just curious of your thoughts.

A lot has gone on today, since I've been gone! Anyway, it is almost 1:00 in the morning so please take that into account as you read this post. Anyway... I am not a really smart person nor do I master Greek, Hebrew, or latin, so I cannot give definitions and the like. I only know what God has spoken to me in my daily study and prayer. BTW, I happen to trust the Bible as well and I trust God to direct me and be the author of my life, not anyone else. I think you misunderstood my post (which is not a put down at all, I only mean I apparently did not get across what I was meaning very clearly) I understand that Corinthians were gentile. I only was saying that men were more likely to be educated than women and as a side note that jewish men were most likely to be educated in scriptures. I was not meaning that the letter was addressed to jews. I also never said that this was strictly a "corinthian issue". I was saying that I believe those scriptures address demeanor and behavior more than address "requirements" in ministry positions. Please re read my post, right now, I can think of no better way to re word it. My husband is in agreement with the position I hold. He wants me to do what we feel God has led me to do, he too desires that I walk in obedience. When I denied preaching and holding the position I hold within the church, we felt terribly convicted by the Holy Spirit, once I submitted to that leading, we were much more at peace. Again, this has nothing to do with MY FEELINGS or anything I WANTED, I only want to be obedient. How am I not under submission to my husband if he agrees, encourages, and wants this too? (just for clarification, I am not ordained by our church, I did not go to seminary (yet, my husband and I plan on going together and becoming co-pastors as is usual in our church) but I and another man at our church preach on Sundays during our breakfast program (which anyone is welcome to and we get a lot of homeless or transient people) and then he leads a prayer circle for men and I for women. Occasionally, a man will stop me and want to talk about something I spoke on. I will answer his questions to the best of my ability, offer to pray with him and usually direct him to Bill for further mentoring, I also lead many of the childrens' and teens ministries and moderate a discpleship group. I do not "lead" the discipleship group as I am going through the program with everyone else, I just prepare (copy, pass out, etc) the materials and make sure the discussion stays on task etc) This is what I was meaning above. So, some common ground......I agree that women need to lead a life in which they (we, lol) practice modesty, discretion, non-dispruptive, etc. I don't see this as meaning they cannot hold positions within the church, only that it should not be about causing a fuss and for purposes of self-glorification and upheavel within the body. :hug: I appreciate that, girl! Ditto here! I love ya! Ditto here too. If it were all about my "feelings" and what I wanted I would be married to some other man (Shel, you know who and it would not be good) and probably a high school drama teacher in Illinois right now. I believe God would not go back on His promise to guide and direct my path when I trust in Him and seek Him. I don't think Shelby declared her stance the end all and be all of the scriptures. Nor did she ask you to "follow" her. This is apples to oranges. Scripture is clear that those in ministry need to be above reproach. A lesbian or gay is living a lifestyle of deliberate sin, not above reproach at all. Being a woman does not automatically mean you are deliberately living in sin. Ok, I'm exhausted.....Sorry this ended up so long. I hope I have spoken not out of haste, but out of a sincere heart (well, I know I have, but I hope it comes across that way) I know some may never agree, but I still would not want anyone to walk away feeling like we were not brothers and sisters in the Lord. I do not want that and I do not feel that way towards anyone, I just feel differently on this issue. God bless, will see you in the morning!

I second this post! Welcome to worthyboards, Ryan! :hug:

That is so touching Katie! thanks! It's true, though! I'm not trying to win brownie points or anything, lol, they aren't on Worthy boards. well......as far as I know, lol, they could be lurking under some screen name I would not recognize......... :suspect: (sorry, just came from the superstition thread and some paranoia seems to have rubbed off! :suspect: )

Honestly, my parents are my heroes. They are great examples to me of what it means to be a christian. They are generous, humble, and just all around awesome! They've shown me what it means to endure "long-suffering" and patience (my dad is very sick with respiratory illness and heart disease and my oldest brother is blind - he was diagnosed at 12 years old). As a teen we had our battles and I was convinced they in no way shape or form understood me, but they loved me through those difficult years and (as they say) hindsight is 20/20 and I know they knew more than I gave them credit for. People say to me "you're just like your mother" and I say "thanks!".

Praise the Lord!! Glad to hear it went well and you are doing well! Continued prayers for you being said daily!

I was following this early on and backed off for a while so forgive me if I ask questions on something that has been addressed already. This is an issue that I really ride the fence on. I have been brought up to believe that women should have no leadership roles in the church but I see women in leadership roles whom I believe are anointed godly women who are drawing people to Christ. The above verses are obviously always used in discussions such as these. Everyone tends to focus on the parts about being submissive and not exercising authority over a man etc. I wonder if we are overlooking the part that says "but to remain quiet". If we are taking these verses literally, which it seems that we are then why don't we take this part literally. If we do take this at face value as it says, then women shouldn't be singing special music, taking other roles in worship services etc. We should be on the pew in silence. Any thoughts on this or should we continue to choose to leave this part out? I was going to post the exact same thing. When I look at all of the scriptures quoted over and over regarding this issue, I can't ignore the way each of these sections are entitled (at least in NIV) either. They are entitled "order in worship" (or something along those lines) not "requirements for pastors" (or something along those lines). WE MUST remember that in that day, women were not formally educated, they could not read, so when Paul is correcting them for "speaking out" in worship, he is speaking to their disruption of the worship, and because men were (at least more than women) educated (at least jewish men were and educated about scriptures, etc) and the women needed to learn submission to their husbands, they were encouraged to save their questions for their husbands at home. Women were also told to respect the authority in the church and be submissive to it, not because it was MALE but because it was AUTHORITY (also to maintain modesty in appearance as well as actions so as not to be proud or boastful). In that day, of course, all of the authority was male...they were educated. I agree that sometimes people do twist scripture for their own purposes. However, I am confident I am not guilty of this in this case. I assure you this has zero to do with anything "I want" and 100% to do with what I feel convicted of by the Holy Spirit in my sincere study and prayer over this issue. If I am wrong, I pray I will be convicted and not be able to rest until I am corrected by God, as I have prayed whenever this topic has come up. My stance has not yet once been swayed, but confirmed in my spirit.

I beg to differ. I am an atheist. I do not worship myself or pleasure. I do not think of myself as a god, and I do not think of pleasure as a god either. Regards, UndecidedFrog Just out of curiousity..... What would you say your #1 priority in life is? As humans, each of of "worship" something, because that is what we were created to do. You may not bow down and pray to it, but whatever is #1 in your life is your object of worship. I know you don't see it as worship or as your god, however worship is innate in all of us. I also have to say that in all of the posts I've read by you I am glad you stick around worthy. I do not address you to be confrontational, but to share the perspective I hold on what is being discussed. Take care and know that many care about you and are praying for you! :hug:

(....and if the devil doesn't like it he can sit on a tack...OUCH!....sit on a tack.....) Me too! Anyway, I agree with you there!! I was just discussing that with someone the other day!

thanks!!

I have to say as well, Thanks to George for such an inspiring thread. I want to be united with my brothers and sisters in Christ and I want to be what the Lord created me to be. Sometimes, it is just easy to forget all that and lash out. I hope I haven't done that. I really try not to react in that manner. I have learned a great deal during my time at worthy (since march) and I do appreciate the discussions I've had here.

For the past few days, I realized there have been no avatars on the posts. I still see sigs, but not avatars. Is it just me or is there a glitch? Just wondering, thanks! (my sig makes no sense because I refer to my avatar being a candle, etc...and it's not there! )