Avidan

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Iam not aware of copying anything and posting it here. But if you dig deep enough, you will find cause to kill me as well. Then you can say" Look, we got two sinners at once, Avidan and Tookie"....weeeee, weeee, weeee.... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hey I did post something, I have had for years. I posted scripture. Hey go ahead and delete it, you do not heed the word anyway!!!!! Bust my chops for posting scripture, BWWWahahahahahahahahahahahahah Yes indeed, yes indeed,...... I have heard enogh, all done with this hypocracy, and those who speak it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Iam not aware of copying anything and posting it here. But if you dig deep enough, you will find cause to kill me as well. Then you can say" Look, we got two sinners at once, Avidan and Tookie"....weeeee, weeee, weeee....

LOVED IT, Halifax!!! WE are NOT TO COMPROMISE and/or CONFORM to the traditions of man!!! YAHWEH DETESTS THE TRADITIONS OF MEN. IT IS ALL IN VAIN!!!!! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ALSO......M45510G1C is boldly speaking the TRUTH!!!!!He said: It isn't about getting people to church, its about getting people to the Truth. We shouldn't water down our faith to make it more palatable for unbelievers. How can every day be holy? It means set apart, what is it being set apart from? WOOHOO!!!! Sing it M45!!!! Ya got the MEAT vs. gagging on babies milk! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Remember the song" Celebrate Jesus celebrate...celebrrate Jesus celebrate"".... Well every day we "Celebrate Jesus celebrate...celebrrate Jesus celebrate"".... Not restricted to one day. I guess Christmeas is "OK" if done in HIS Love and passion, but it also can lead to "One day" a year.

Which shows that you don't understand what forgiveness is, or what it entails. We cannot forgive Williams. We are not his victims, and only his victims or the at least the families of his victims have the right to forgive him. The government cannot forgive him. The government is put in place to uphold the legal system, and the law of the land says he deserves death. The death penalty does not contradict the Bible, nor the character of God, seeing that God set the death penalty in place in ancient Israel. I agree with this totally. We cannot forgive the sins of someone who has not sinned against us, only God can do that. In fact one of the ways we realize that Christ is God in the Gospels is that He forgives the sins of those who have done nothing against Him, which is why the Jewish religious leaders say, who does He think He is to forgive others sin? Who is chiefly offended when someone sins? The person who was hurt, and God. Thus only those two have any say in forgiveness. So no doubt the government has held the right to take human life, both in war and against lawbreakers and I don't feel compelled as a Christian to try to end that right. The question for me though is whether the death penalty just, and does it work? I would answer no on both of those counts, and for this reason feel it should be ended. I think as Christians we should work toward things, which are just in society. We do not seem to have the ability to evenly, consistently and justly apply the death penalty, and for this reason I think it should be ended. There is no doubt that innocent people have been killed by our government, and I don't think this is worth it, when we locking someone away without the possibility of parole serves all of the same purposes as the death penalty. If Williams has not sinned against you, whereas you are not entitled to forgive him, why are you so adamant to kill him then?!!!!!!!!!!! Perhaps it is due to the "ways" of your nation....kill, murder, at any cost, for any reason. Yes indeed. But not for much longer.....not much longer....... Yahwehs judgement on your Nation is at your doorstep. LOL!!

Thats one of the greatest twist of scripture I have heard in a long time.

Unfortunately, this does nothing for the debate. Avidan, you still are not addressing the issue. What love will you give society who is threatened by criminals? What love will you give the victims' loved ones? How will you prevent repeat offenses? Please stop acting so self-righteous in this debate, OK? That isn't answering the challenges. ]I said Do not release Williams three times. I said do not kill him. I said forgive him. Let him live. Then Jesus said, "Father forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." And as they divided His garments, they cast lots. Now the people stood by observing and the rulers among them were also deriding Him, saying, 'He saved others; let Him save Himself, if this is the Christ, the chosen of God.' "(Luke 23:34-35) Jesus forgave those who tortured, humiliated, and drove spikes into HIS wrist and feet. So will I. Does this add to the disscusion? Or am I being "self-righteous as Jesus.

" Then Jesus said, "Father forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." And as they divided His garments, they cast lots. Now the people stood by observing and the rulers among them were also deriding Him, saying, 'He saved others; let Him save Himself, if this is the Christ, the chosen of God.' "(Luke 23:34-35) Jesus forgave those who tortured, humiliated, and drove spikes into HIS wrist and feet. So will I.

I do not hang out at this board all day. That's beside the point. When one engages in debate, one should attempt to answer counter arguments. By passing them only shows that you have no answer, thus making your own argument weaker. How is salvation justice when we did the same? You are mixing apples and oranges. Redemption from sin is "apples." Consequences are "oranges." Again, I appeal to what happened with King David. His life was spared only besause he repented, but even still a life was required to pay the price - that of his son. He was given other punishments he had to endure as well. You can read them here: 2 Samuel 12:1-14 (Begin at vs. 10 for the sentence.) The consequence is a life spent behind bars. That is justice. Repaying evil for evil. . . . How is this justice? How does it deter from crime? How well does prison actually rehab hardened criminals? Pr 11:10 - When it goes well with the righteous, the city rejoices; And when the wicked perish, there is jubilation. Pr 28:28 - When the wicked arise, men hide themselves; But when they perish, the righteous increase. And how is atomenent made for the lives of those whose blood was spilled? Was the Lord wicked for commanding the death penalty in the first place? Why do you think the Lord commanded to put such people to death? As for the "eye for an eye" - Jesus was speaking to the people concerning their personal lives, not the governing body on how to rule. Also, you should do a study on the different Hebrew and Greek words used for "kill" and "murder". I did. There are different words used to describe "murder" and other types of killing, including "execution." To insert "murder" in the Scripture where it mentions "slaying" the wicked is to change the text of Scripture. And BTW - did Jesus ever speak out against the executions performed by the Roman government in His time on Earth? Williams refused to apologise, he claims he did not commit the crime. I say he was framed by the highly corrupt L.A.P.D. and the corrupt "IN"-justice system.[/quote] Care to provide your evidence? And his choices have nothing to do with anything? Are you saying free will has nothing to do with anything? I am saying that he had no chance. And that justifies his actions? Did the Lord release Jezebel because she was born to a foreign country and raised to serve Baal? Should Hitler have been excused because of his terrible upbringing? Honostly, please proved the Scripture that states "men are with excuse." Now that was immature of you. That was humor. Something you should recognise. Humor is supposed to be funny. That wasn't. Well, you came back to the argument. What does that say? Thank-you! It is appreciated. OK - hold it here. Where do you get that we are saved from physical death? Now, this is what I don't get. Why do you and others believe that prison is an effective means of fighting crime? What exactly is the reform rate vs. the repeat offender rate? And what does life in prison actually serve? Hsve you heard that some people actually commit crimes just so they can have "three hots and a cot"? Honostly, what does prison do for justice? And Bin Laden might just decide to surrender to the US forces, too. As a previous post mentioned - death row has a way of reaching people for Christ better than life in prison does. I was about 4 or 5 years old, actually. Here's the thing. Forgiveness is not in my hands since the man did nothing to affect me in any way. For another - imagine a parent or a teacher dealing with a child who did something wrong. For the sake of argument, we can say the child vandalized someone else's property, or we can say the child punched another child in the nose. Now, the child denies the crime, yet there is sufficient evidence to show that this child was indeed guilty. Does the adult, as a good Christian, freely forgive the child and lesson the potential sentence to standing in the corner for five minutes. What message does this give to the other children? Does it fix the vandalized property or make the child with the bleeding nose feel safe? Does it encourage the guilty child to no longer vandalize or hit? You see, as far as administering law, your argument misses out on how to protect society and give criminals the message that such actions have consequences that they do not want to pay. Do you honostly believe that prison deters from crime for street gangs? Or what about the man in Florida who kidnapped, raped, and buried alive nine-year old Jessica Lunsford? Yeah - lock 'em up in prison and all will be at peace with the world. Well, for someone who loves to quote about not judging, you sure are quick to judge here, aren't you? I fail to understand why you insist that: unforgiveness = death penalty forgiveness = life in prison And how is locking someone in prison for life "not condemning" anyway? It's still passing a sentence, is it not? As for the "less guilty" biz, it sounds like you do not believe that murder is all that serious. What do you believe the Lord meant by one's "blood crying to [Him] from the ground"? If sin could be compared to sickness - one could see that different sicknesses require different actions. Some, you can let go for they will take care of themselves, others you need to be more aggressive about, and others the only cure is to cut it out. As far as salvation goes, yes the blood of Jesus covers all. But as far as treatment goes, you can't just let the effects go. When Eric and Dylan went on their shooting spree in Columbine High, there were students who testified that they felt the presence of evil when the two walked into the library. If those two hadn't killed themselves, would you believe a life of prison would have reformed them? What does them carrying the presence of evil with them mean to you? I will ask again - How is prison a suitable punishment? Will that instill fear in people to not likewise commit such a crime? Will this protect people to allow this man to still have a voice? What about the other inmates? Have you considered his influence on them? Likewise - what is your opinion of the laws given by the Lord Himself to Israel that murderers were to be punished by death? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There is some twisted people in the "Church". 99% of the time they are "true blue Americans", and mix the two theologys. Which is why I removed myself from the church 12 years ago. Lots of worship Lots of prayer Limited felowship, very limited fellowship.

Are you showing love for the victims by denying justice? Are you showing love to God when you deny justice? Are you showing love for society when you deny justice? As for forgiveness, I do not know how much clearer I can get. Forgiveness does not equate tabula rasa, there are still consquences. Correct, but this is taken from the Talmud and not the Bible. Thus when in conflict with the Bible it falls short. God ordered us to kill those that murder. Ok, then you kill. I,ll forgive and obey Jesus. PS: I do not use my emotions when dealing with my heart. For HE is my heart. The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings. JER 17:9-10 I don't trust my heart. I will SUBMIT to HIS LAW which shows me how to LOVE in HIS LOVE. HOLY SPIRIT, HOLY LIVING LAW, LIVES HOLY WRITTEN LAW through me. I put HIS HOLY WTITTEN LAW in my mind to have the MIND of the MESSIAH so that I will know WHO HOLY SPIRIT IS, WHAT HOLY SPIRIT IS SAYING, and WHERE HOLY SPIRIT IS GOING. =-=-=

No, you are not making sense - in both argument and your typing style. This isn't Chat - please[/] type normally. The "i" "2" "4" "b" and such are to read. As for your arguments - I am still waiting for an answer as to how life in prison is sufficient justice for cold-blooded murder. And why should the government cancel the debt of a man who has not repented of his crime? Hi, Sorry about the tying error, I'll definately correct that, Thank you! Well since am not making sence to you; I'll answer for the sake of someone who seems to get the point. Offcourse we all are sinners redeemed by his blood, we were all guilty of sin, but God gave His Son to die for us on the cross so that we might be saved and not die both physically and spiritually. So the same way he gave you the chance to get saved not by your power or might but by His spirit, why not let this man get life imprisonement, he might repent and get born again while he is in there. I dont know when you gave your life to Christ and got born again, but am I glad for you that God gave you the chance to repent because if it was not for Christ dying for your sins you would go straight to hell. As for your second question, WE are not the goverment, WE are born again christians here, we are talking about us forgiving the man like Christ asked us to. The goverment is not born again, they are non-believers thats why we dont blame them for their decision, the difference between what the world does and what we Christians do and feel should be very different. Then if everyone here thinks and does like the world, then are we really born again? or just claiming to be Christians. Amen heavenlyfavoured. Spoken like a "true" Christian. Others could learn from you.

Just as important, are you hearing God?

Thats odd, I found the Arabs were more hospitable than the Jews by far. No comparison. I was there for two months. And there are mean people everywhere. Especially in this nation.

This is the 'New Covenant' experience, the laws of God written in the Heart of the Believer. With the reception of the Holy Spirit he has the 'love of God shed abroad in his heart'. The 'New Creation' loves God with ALL his heart, mind, soul and strength and his neighbor as he used to love himself. God comes first and then his neighbor. Self is lost sight of and the foolish things of selfish childhood are put away in the light of His Glory and Grace. Heb 8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put MY LAWS into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. Mt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written (in the Old Testament), Man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Deut 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by EVERY word that proceedsout of the mouth of the LORD doth man live. Here are they who have the 'Laws of God' written in their hearts, the 'church without spot or wrinkle or any such thing', She has purified herself and made herself ready for the 'marriage super of the lamb' and has been sealed and arrayed as a bride for her 'bridegroom'. Rev 14:12 Here is the patience (endurance) of the saints (holy ones): here are they that keep the commandments of God (every word of the Word, Jesus, who gave every word of the Scriptures), and the faith of Jesus. The BEATITUDES are the main part of HIS LAW, next to LOVING our GOD and our neighbor because HE SAYS to. POOR IN SPIRIT Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the KINGDOM of HEAVEN. Matt. 5:3 The Psalmist writes: The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart, and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit. (Psalm 34:18; cf Ps. 51:17) and from Proverbs: There is that maketh himself rich that hath nothing; there is that maketh himself poor, yet hath great riches. (Prov 13:7 cf 19:1, 22:2-3, 28:6) =-=-= BEAUTY FOR ASHES Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. (Matt. 5:4) Compare these verse from the prophet Isaiah: ... to comfort all that mourn; To appoint unto them that mourn in ZION, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; ... (Isa. 61:2-3) And from Jeremiah: I will turn their mourning into joy and will comfort them (Jer 31:13) =-=-= BLESSED ARE THE MEEK BLESSED are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. (Matt. 5:5) That Beatitude is a quotation of Psalm 37: But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace. (Ps. 37:11) Indeed, an earlier verse in the same psalm says: For evildoers shall be cut off, but those who wait upon the Lord. they shall inherit the earth. (vs 9) Isaiah prophesies YHSHWH doing exactly what He did in that very word: The SPIRIT of the LORD GOD is upon me]]ME; because the LORD hath ANNOINTED ME to preach good tidings unto the meek; (Isa. 61:1 =-=-= RIGHTEOUSNESS Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. Matt. 5:6 This verse is a great comfort too, when all about seems unrighteous. That those of us who hunger and thirst after righteousness shall be filled has been a constant theme of scripture: The Lord will not suffer the soul of the righteous to famish: (Prov 10:3); the desire of the righteous shall be granted (Prov 10:24); in the way of righteousness is life (Prov 12:28). And: Ho, every one that thirsteth come ye to the waters (Isa 55:1) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, my servants shall eat, but ye shall be hungry: behold, my servants shall drink, but ye shall be thirsty: behold, my servants shall rejoice, but ye shall be ashamed: (Isa. 65:13) ). =-=-= MERCY BLESSED are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. (Matt. 5:7) Compare with: Have mercy upon me, O Lord; for I am weak (Psalm 6:2) He that despiseth his neighbour sinneth: but he that hath mercy on the poor, happy is he. Pro. 14:21 Whoso stoppeth his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard (Prov 21:13) For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice (Hosea 6:6; cf Micah 6:8) =-=-= PURE IN HEART Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. (Matt. 5:8) See the Psalms: Lord, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? Who shall dwell in thy holy hill? He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart. (Ps. 15:1-2) Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord, or who shall stand in his holy place? He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart. (Psalm 24:3-4a) =-=-= CHILDREN OF GOD BLESSED are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of GOD. (Matt. 5:9) Again, peace is not a New Testament invention: When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it (Deut 20:10). Depart from evil, and do good; seek peace, and pursue it. (Ps. 34:14) For he will speak peace unto His people (Psalm 85:8). The way of peace they know not, and no judgment in their goings; they have made them crooked paths; whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace. (Isa 59:8) =-=-= PERSECUTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS BLESSED are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice and be exceeding glad; for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. (Matt. 5:10-12) But they mocked the messengers of God and despised his words and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the Lord arose against his people (2 Chr 36:16) O LORD my God, in thee do I trust, save me from all them that persecute me, and deliver me. (Ps. 7:1) May GOD YHSHWH give us of HIS GRACE and HIS HOLY SPIRIT to follow all the Beatitudes in our lives, but especially give us the courage to be prepared to be persecuted for righteousness' sake. In these days, those who stand against the values of the world will face affliction more and more.

I have the same problem with mechanics and electricians. These are the times when I wish that my husband was a pit bull. Problems are like water off a ducks back with him. If its' serious, I trot down to see my brother in the Lord Owen who will go in and barrel them out. Avidan, I see you like photography. Maybe you could take a couple of photos and take it down to your local council, along with your plow account. Or you could turn a photo into a christmas card and send it to your neighbour? with a caption something like 'thinking of you this christmas. You are in our prayers' I'm worried that your situation may turn ugly - what goes around comes around -tit for tat. Being a peacekeeper doesn't mean your weak. I have them all convinced I am "certified" nuts. They fear me know. "If you cannot get them to love you, get them to fear you". So sad. But effective.

I do not hang out at this board all day. How is salvation justice when we did the same? The consequence is a life spent behind bars. That is justice. Taking his life is murder. Or an eye for an eye. Repaying evil for evil. You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you,

Full circle? yes, if you "stretch" it around a red wood tree.

Let he who has not sinned, cast the first stone.

That is fine. I have a prison ministry. A friend and I supervise a Christian half way home. I deal with those who took life everyday.

Williams was also a victim. A victim of sin, racisim, social enginnering, drugs, stupidity, street survival, welfare, and his own developed sense of hate for himself. I can hear the hoofbeats of the conservative posse now. I Better go find some shelter that can withstand rockets.. Uh oh, is, is, is that General Sam leading the posse? And his Brigadeer General Oveyda?

We are not bound by the law. The second covenant is LOVE.

Why should I forgive him of anything, what has he done to me or you? Unless you're his victim or a family member, you really aren't qualified to make that accessment. This is between, him, God, his victims, and the judicial system. And ultimately Gods judicial system. WHY? Because a offence against life is a offence against God. We act, we forgive.

Christians have only the rights given to them by YHSHWH-GOD: NONE. His ways, not our ways.

NEBULA, note your signature!! As believers in the Lord Jesus Christ we have only one right: and that is to give up all rights to ourselves (Phil. 2:1-5). Thus we surrender our rights to Yhshwh-Gods ways. Jesus said forgive. I did not say release him.

tHEN IS LOVE AND FORGIVENESS WEAK THEOLOGY??