rollinTHUNDER

Hi Marilyn, I think a short version would be fine, or you may wish to keep your view private if you are uncomfortable with this subject. We know He is going to return. The fall feasts are set, but the exact timing of them is not. The Day of Atonement and the feast of Tabernacles will both have set schedules, but the feast of trumpets does not. There's a two day window where the first sliver of the new moon can appear. We don't know the day or hour this feast will begin, so we must watch. There are several different rapture theories. One believes this, and another believes that...But my purpose for starting this thread was so that people could actually learn about these feasts and see if the rapture theory they hold is compatible with these feasts. Let's use the pre-trib rapture as an example here. They believe that we are not appointed to God's wrath, but they also believe the rapture occurs seven years before the second coming and/or the Day of Atonement. So this puts the two final feasts on hold for seven years as well. Now mid-trib would be the same except the separation would be 3 1/2 years instead of seven. Post-trib believes the rapture and second coming occur on the same day, so this belief would force the feast of trumpets and the Day of Atonement to both be on the same day as well. In my view, only one theory fits the pattern and is compatible with God's appointed times, so I laid out the post-trib/pre-wrath theory, as it also fits the days of Noah and Lot patterns as well. None of the other theories fit any of these patterns. Nice chatting with you, sister. Cheers

Don't feel bad, Marilyn. I just edited my scenario and it was a mess. Not at all and I still don't get it. Pre-trib is usually used by those who think the rapture will occur before Daniel's 70th week. What you have here I would call pre-church. I think I get #2, but this makes me wonder if you even believe in the rapture at all. I know that there are some that don't. Do you have a position on this? Thanks Cheers

Anyone else want to take the challenge to see how your theory lines up with the fall feasts?

Hi Marilyn, Good information, but you forgot one. I guess we caught the teacher in a rare moment of weakness. Spring Feasts Passover Unleavened bread First fruits Pentecost (weeks) Fall Feasts Trumpets Day of Atonement Tabernacles But I still give you an A- for great effort. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, even though you did not share any of your beliefs or how you think these feasts will be fulfilled. Cheers

In Matt. 24 Christ mentions the great tribulation, but He did not say much about what it would be like. Instead He was focused on answering His disciples question about the sign of His coming, and of the end of the age (Matt. 24:3). After telling them about the sign of the Son of man, that is when He mentions about sending the angels to gather His elect. Many debate who the elect are, some say it's Israel, others say it the Church. Christ never told us plainly who the elect are, however, He gave several parables instead that contain many clues about who the elect are. Most people stop at the end of chapter 24, but that is only half of His answer. He continues all the way through chapter 25, adding the parable of ten virgins and the parable of talents, which also provide clues for who His elect are. Don't take every detail literally, for they are only parables, but they contain a wealth of clues. Then finally, He concludes His answer about the sign of the end of the age, when He will gather all nations for judgment (sheep and goats - Matt.25:31-46). He will kill the goats, so this is the Day of the Lord, Armageddon, and the second coming. It only gets confusing when they teach that Matt. 24 is the second coming, but that's only reading half of Christ' answer. The Day of the Lord is not in Matt. 24. It's at the end of chapter 25:31-46. According to scripture, Christ can not return and judge the nations first, because He must first judge the house of the Lord (1 Peter 4:17-18). So all of the parables you see before the sheep and goat judgment of the nations, they are about gathering the elect (judging/rewarding) His servants. 1 Peter 4:17-18 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 Now “If the righteous one is scarcely saved, Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?” Revelation 22:12 And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. (goats/Armageddon) Hope that helps. Cheers

Hi fire-heart, You lead me to believe that it is easy to know the day and hour. So come on out with it then, and tell us when you think it will be. Paul said, But of the times and seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write to you, for yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night." When they start talking peace and safety, then we know that destruction will come on them as a woman in travail (birth pains), now think abomination of desolation (Matt. 24:15). But we are not in darkness that that day should over take us as a thief. This is why Christ gave us the signs, for when we see them we will know that it is near, even right at the door. He did not give us the signs so we won't know, but rather He wants us to know when the time is near. But we still will not know the day and hour, even when we know we are in the season (year). No one will know the day or hour, no one. It is un-knowable. But we should not think that we are in the same darkness as unbelievers. The signs and seasons are for us, the children of light, and we are not appointed to wrath. Cheers I dont know when it will happen but its not very predictable at all. Jesus said he will come like a theif in the night and in all my rapture dreams I was taken out of nowhere suddenly and without without warning. in one of them I was just going for a walk [ i go on walks a lot] When in a split second I was taken to heaven. Its possible it may not happen this year but the signs indicate he is coming very soon. The blood moon tetrads are a huge indication that he is going to take us very soon. Hi fire-heart, Agreed, nothing will be predictable until after the feast of trumpets, which no man knows the day or hour. It is the Day of the Lord that will come like a thief in the night. When you read that He will come like a thief, He is referring to the Day of the Lord's wrath. This is not the rapture or the sign of the Son of man. It will occur ten days after on the Day of Atonement, when He returns to destroy those nations that come against Jerusalem. This is where He will separate the sheep and goats, whereas the goats will be destroyed and the sheep will be the survivors from the nations who will enter into the millennium in mortal bodies and be ruled over by Christ and His saints. I partially agree here. I do not believe the rapture is the second coming to the earth either. However, in the rapture, He will meet us halfway, where we will meet Him in the clouds and in the air. Cheers

Hi fire-heart, You lead me to believe that it is easy to know the day and hour. So come on out with it then, and tell us when you think it will be. Paul said, But of the times and seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write to you, for yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night." When they start talking peace and safety, then we know that destruction will come on them as a woman in travail (birth pains), now think abomination of desolation (Matt. 24:15). But we are not in darkness that that day should over take us as a thief. This is why Christ gave us the signs, for when we see them we will know that it is near, even right at the door. He did not give us the signs so we won't know, but rather He wants us to know when the time is near. But we still will not know the day and hour, even when we know we are in the season (year). No one will know the day or hour, no one. It is un-knowable. But we should not think that we are in the same darkness as unbelievers. The signs and seasons are for us, the children of light, and we are not appointed to wrath. Cheers

My scenario comes from a pre-wrath perspective, but to be more specific it's actually a (post-trib/pre-wrath view). The Fall Feasts and the Second Coming Many Christians believe that Christ will fulfill the fall feasts (trumpets, atonement & tabernacles) when He returns, just as He fulfilled each of the spring feasts (Passover, Unleavened bread, First fruits & Pentecost) during His first advent. This not only seems plausible, but very likely I believe. If so, then we should not fail to recognize that the controversial rapture must also be included in these feasts as well, which may present problems for some of our most popular rapture theories today. Nevertheless, if Christ is going to fulfill all of the fall feasts just as He did the spring feasts, then I believe it would be very wise to understand how future end-time events will unfold in relation to these biblical fall feasts. As we begin, I think it's important to understand that just as the spring feasts were fulfilled by Christ consecutively, in order, and in the same year, we can probably safely preclude that the fall feasts will follow that same pattern. On the feast of Passover almost 2000 years ago, Christ became the Lamb of God. He died once, for all, pouring out His blood as a sacrifice for the sins of the world. The next day, which started that evening, He was buried on the feast of Unleavened bread, after living a sinless life. Leaven represents sin, and for those who believe, He became the bread of life. After three days, He was resurrected on the feast of First fruits, so He became the first fruits of the dead. After He was resurrected, He walked with His disciples and continued to teach them for forty days, and then He ascended in the clouds back to heaven. He instructed His disciples to wait in Jerusalem, and promised them that He would send them the Holy Spirit. The tenth day after His ascension, on the feast of Weeks (Pentecost), His disciples were filled with the Holy Spirit and the Church was born, as Christ fulfilled all of the spring feasts. And since we know that Christ will be returning soon, many believers expect that He will likewise fulfill the fall feasts when He comes. Colossians 2:16-17 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. Matthew 5:17-18 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Many Christians believe the next major prophetic event concerning God's people will be the rapture. This glorious event will be fulfilled during Rosh Hashanah (feast of trumpets), which happens to be the first of three fall feasts. The second fall feast will be the Day of Atonement, followed lastly by the feast of Tabernacles. So with these biblical feasts in mind, let's closely examine the future end-time events to see what they will look like in relation to the feasts of the Lord. Many Christians don't believe the following passage relates to the rapture, but after much diligent study, I believe it does. I'll use it as the starting point, so let's put it under the microscope to see if it's compatible with the feasts of the Lord. Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Verses 30 and 31 of the passage above compare very favorably to the passage below, which is widely accepted by most scholars as the rapture. People often describe things differently, but notice that in each of these passages, both of them mention the Lord descending from heaven, coming in the clouds, and the blowing of a trumpet. Additionally, the first passage mentions angels gathering His elect, while the second one shows believers being caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And finally, neither one of these passages mention anything about a physical returning to the earth or setting feet upon the Mount of Olives, so why do so many believers assume this is describing the second coming? Perhaps it doesn't fit so nicely into their theories? 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Christ' disciples asked Him for the sign of His coming and of the end of the age (Matt. 24:3). Most of us know that the rapture won't have any signs, and for this reason, Christ commanded all of His followers to watch and be ready. So it's a given that the rapture will have no signs. However, when it actually happens, the rapture will then be a great sign for both, the remnant in Israel and the Jews that are still scattered among the nations. All the tribes of the earth will mourn when they see this great and glorious multitude meeting in the clouds, lighting up the dark sky. Then they will lift up their heads and know that their redemption draws near, and many of them will mourn for the one they have pierced. Mark 13:26-27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Mark adds more clarity to this gathering, (from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven). Now let's see what Luke said about this. Luke 21:27-28 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. Matthew 24:36-39 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. The verse above is so often misunderstood. Many believe the phrase, "no man knows the day or hour" is referring to the rapture. Well it does have a relationship to the rapture, but actually it is referring to Rosh Hashanah (feast of trumpets). This is the only one of the biblical feasts that does not have a set day or time to begin. The new moon sometimes does not appear until the second day, and no one knows what hour it will be seen, so this feast can not officially begin until it becomes visible. Once the first sliver of the new moon is witnessed, then 100 trumpet blasts are blown and the final blast is known as the last trump, which will signal the rapture (1 Cor. 15:52). This feast also marks the first day of the seventh month of Tishri on the Hebrew calendar, and it is always a Sabbath regardless of which day of the week it falls on. When the sign of the Son of man appears, then another prophecy will be fulfilled as well. The rapture will also make Israel jealous of the Church, which up until now has never happened, but it will happen just as the times of the gentiles are fulfilled. Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. So the rapture will occur after the tribulation and after the times of the gentiles are fulfilled. Scripture tells us the beast will be given authority to continue 42 months after the abomination of desolation (Rev. 13:5). We also know that Jerusalem will be trampled by the gentiles for 42 months as well (Rev. 11:2). Furthermore, Israel will remain blinded in part until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled (Rom. 11:25). Then immediately after the tribulation the sign of the Son of man will appear (Matt. 24:29). This is precisely when these days will be shortened for the sake of the elect (Matt. 24:22), while the rest of mankind will enter into the hour of trial that will come upon the entire world to test the inhabitants of the earth (Rev. 3:10). Many believers who aren't ready will be martyred during this final hour. So the sign of the Son of man will signal the end of the times of the gentiles, and then the atonement will once again shift back to the nation of Israel. It should be noted that the Day of Atonement is 8 only days after the feast of trumpets ends. Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. Again, the verse above is referring to the tribes of the earth (Israel) who will mourn when they see the sign of the Son of man (rapture). Then shortly after the wedding supper in heaven (Rev. 19:1-10), the Lord will gather all nations against Jerusalem for judgment (sheep and goats/Armageddon). He will fight to protect and save Israel from the armies of the nations that will come against her. Israel will finally say, blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. Then the nations (goats) will turn to fight against the Lord, Himself, but He will utterly destroy them (Rev. 19:11-21), as He returns on the Day of atonement. This is when Israel's sins will be forgiven, on the tenth day after the feast of trumpets begins. Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. Zechariah 14:1-5 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. Just five days after the Day of Atonement ends, the feast of Tabernacles will begin with great rejoicing as Israel will finally be living in the presence of her long awaited Messiah. The moon will be full on the 15th day of Tishri, which will be just two weeks after the new moon appears on Rosh Hashanah (feast of trumpets). Then Israel will worship her Messiah, the King of kings and Lord of lords. And everyone from all nations will be required to come to Jerusalem and worship Him, year after year throughout the entire millennial reign of Christ. Zechariah 14:16-17 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. I believe the feast of Tabernacles will be Christ' official coronation as the King of kings and Lord of lords. But I would not expect the millennial reign of Christ to begin immediately after the feast of Tabernacles begins, though, because Daniel said these wonders (tribulation) would end after 1290 days. Then he was told, "Blessed is he that waits, and comes to the 1335 days" (Dan. 12:12), so there are another 45 days remaining. The feast of Tabernacles would probably be 15 days after the 1290 days (1305 days), which would still leave an additional 30 days remaining. These 30 days may be necessary to cleanse the Temple, not to mention that Jerusalem and the surrounding areas would be a huge mess after the destruction brought on by Armageddon. Conclusion: All three of the fall feasts will occur within two weeks of each other in the month of Tishri. Tishri is the seventh month on the Hebrew calendar, and the number seven means completion and/or perfection. I believe these biblical festivals, which are God's appointed times, are going to shed a flood-light on some of these popular rapture theories. It all starts with the feast of trumpets, the feast that no one knows the day or hour. Christ said that His coming will be like it was in the days of Noah. If you recall, Noah and his family boarded the ark seven days, not seven years before God poured out His wrath in the days before the flood. God shut the door of the ark seven days before the flood waters came. Noah's family represents Christians being rescued from God's wrath, and it may very well be that those seven days are the same days that will be shortened for the sake of the elect, as Christ said, otherwise, no flesh would be saved. And I believe the Christian's who are not ready when the Son of man appears, they are the same saints that will be overcome by the beast (Rev. 13:7). And Christ also said that His coming would be like it was in the days of Lot. So let's see what He meant by both of these in the passages below. Luke 17:26-27 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. I believe the passage above represents the rapture, when Noah and his family were rescued before God poured out His wrath. But did you notice the clues that followed? They ate and drank, they married and were given in marriage. All of these are simple clues hinting at the wedding supper in heaven for those who are ready. Now let's see what He said about the days of Lot in the passage below. Luke 17:28-29 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. The parable of the days of Noah represents the rapture, but the parable of the days of Lot does not. Christ' second coming will be like it was in the days of Lot. The very same day that Lot and his family left Sodom and fled to the city of Zoar, fire and brimstone rained down from heaven and destroyed Sodom. Lot and his family represent Israel, who will flee to the valley after the Lord splits the Mount of Olives in two, just as they fled from the earthquake in the days of king Uzziah (Zech. 14:4-5). I think it's so fascinating how the Lord hid so many clues in such a short parable. In the parable of Noah, He gave us clues about the wedding supper for His servants who are ready. But in the parable of Lot, we still see the same eating/drinking again, but then it's different. Instead of marrying and given in marriage, we now find they bought and sold, they planted, and they builded. Interestingly, this shows that while the wedding supper was occurring in heaven for those who were ready (eating and drinking), now in the days of Lot we see buying and selling, which hints at the mark of the beast for those servants who were not ready. They planted as well, because they won't be able to buy and sell without the mark of the beast in those days. And finally, they builded (past tense), which shows the third Temple was built on Israel's part. And we know Israel will flee to the valley when her Messiah's feet touch down on the mount of Olives, splitting it in two. But the most fascinating thing to me, is that Christ has told us everything, even putting it into chronological order in Matthew chapters 24 and 25, and yet most believers still can't see it, even after almost 2000 years. We know that Israel will be blinded in part until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled. But it seems so ironic that the Church does not even realize that she has been blinded as well, because she does not understand the festivals of the Lord, which are God's appointed times. God's Word tells us that history is designed to repeat. And I fear that many of His children will not be ready when the Son of man appears in the clouds, just as Israel wasn't ready and missed her time of visitation. Oh Lord, please help us to open our spiritual eyes.

Hi Marilyn, Looking forward to see what you come up with. I'm working on mine as well, and it's a little more work than I thought, trying to tie things together, but I'm hoping that makes this all the more interesting. Cheers

What? That's a cop out if I ever heard one, brother. Hey, I thought the teacher was off for summer vacation. Well, I am putting something together, and you know I'll be digging deeper, and that I swing for the upper deck. Or, at least I did when I was younger. But this is no cinch. It's not rapture 101. It's much more than just saying I'm a pre, mid or post-tribber, so it will take a little longer to tie everything together. So I hope you'll give it some thought and take the challenge. I have a hunch this will get very interesting. Cheers

Thanks, I could be wrong, but the context of Dnaiel 7 to me indicates its possible that the breaking into pieces occurs before the rising of the ten horns: 23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be a fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all the kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 24 And as for the ten horns, out of this kingdom shall ten kings arise: and another shall arise after them; and he shall be diverse from the former, and he shall put down three kings. Read the next verse, then Rev. 13. Cheers

Many Christians believe that Christ will fulfill the fall feasts (trumpets, atonement & tabernacles) when He returns, just as He fulfilled the spring feasts (Passover, unleavened bread, first fruits & weeks) during His first advent. This not only seems plausible, but very likely in my minds eye. However, of all the people I've heard say they believe this, I've never heard any of them describe how this would play-out using there own personal end time beliefs. In other words, what would these feasts look like if they were applied to the rapture theory they hold dear? What would the pre-trib rapture look like using the fall feasts as a pattern? And what about the mid-trib, post-trib, pre-wrath theories, etc.? Most Christians believe the rapture will occur during the feast of trumpets, but how will the two following feasts be fulfilled afterwards? Anyway, I thought it would be both fun and interesting to see how others laid out their individual scenarios according to the beliefs they have. Just so you know, the fall feasts all occur in the month of Tishri, the seventh month on the Hebrew calendar, which are usually in September or October on our Gregorian calendars. Feast of Trumpets - 1 & 2 Tishri Day of Atonement - 10 Tishri Feast of Tabernacles 15 Tishri I realize this will take plenty of thought and some study as well, so take your time. Have fun and good luck!

Very true, Marilyn, Two or three heads are almost always better than one. By the way, I just thought of another reason Rome will revive. If Daniel's fourth beast does not devour the whole earth, then Daniel's prophecy will not be fulfilled. The fourth beast was the only one that Daniel said will devour the entire world. And since it did not happen in the first go-round, it must happen the next time around, otherwise Daniel's prophecy is not true. But we know that he was not a false prophet, because Christ said he was a prophet. Cheers I see Rome as an ongoing power representing Western Europe and often its intertwined relationship with Papal/Vatican manipulation. I believe over a few hundred years Western Europe did conquer the earth and split up massive regions into tiny countries (colonialism). In this way nearly the entire North America, South America, parts of Asia (and Australasia) and even the Middle East came under European control. The nations of Europe divided the world between them. Entire nations in Africa are English or Portuguese or French speaking. South America is Spanish and Portuguese. North America is English and a bit French. The British occupied Iran, India, and Egypt at various stages in history, even defeating China. Spain controlled the Phillipines, every country in South east Asia was colonialised except Thailand, which was left alone only through a treaty between France and England. Europeans decided the fate of Thailand. So the 4th kingdom, Western Europe, has already trampled and broken the entire world into bits. Hi ARGOSY, Good observation. Rome was never conquered by another. This world has been carved up in several different ways, however, this prophecy won't be fulfilled until the ten kings arise to reign with the beast in the final 42 months or in the great tribulation. Cheers

One problem with this 'devouring' may be that the other three out live it. If it devours the entire earth, then the other three would not be able to continue. Dan 7:12. Hi Paradox, That's not so. Each of the first three kingdoms lost their dominion, after being conquered by the following kingdom, each in their own order. And each became subject to the following kingdom. So the survivors were permitted to live out their lives completely, because God's judgment won't come until the time of the end. If you'll notice in Daniel 2, when the stone that was cut out of a mountain without hands (Christ) comes, it will smash the entire statue, iron, brass, clay, silver and gold, ending the rule of man and Satan's kingdom of darkness once and for all (vs. 45). Then He will set up His millennial kingdom and the saints will reign with Him for 1000 years and then forever more. It will be even worse than that. This beast will seek to control every individual on this planet. Revelation 13:16-17 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads. 17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Verse 5 confirms that this will also occur during the final 42 months, after the abomination of desolation. So if you're looking for this to be fulfilled in the past, you are wasting your time. Cheers

Very true, Marilyn, Two or three heads are almost always better than one. By the way, I just thought of another reason Rome will revive. If Daniel's fourth beast does not devour the whole earth, then Daniel's prophecy will not be fulfilled. The fourth beast was the only one that Daniel said will devour the entire world. And since it did not happen in the first go-round, it must happen the next time around, otherwise Daniel's prophecy is not true. But we know that he was not a false prophet, because Christ said he was a prophet. Cheers

Hi Marilyn, To answer these questions, let's go to the scriptures. Daniel 7:23-25 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. I believe God gave Daniel this vision to better understand the kingdoms that King Neb saw, to add more detail to these kingdoms. This fourth kingdom will be different in that it will devour the entire world (global government). As you know the ancient Roman empire failed to accomplish this. The Romans controlled Europe, some of the middle east, and the northern nations of Africa as we know them today (all land surrounding the Mediterranean sea). They will devour the whole world, tread it down (with feet) and break it in pieces (10 regions). This empire will go global, but not until the ten kings arise in the final 42 months, after the abomination of desolation. These ten kings provide a better understanding of the feet and ten toes of King Neb's dream. Trampling down the residue with it's feet shows that the revived Roman empire will devour the rest of the world that the ancient Romans failed to conquer. So the world will be divided into ten regions, and the little horn will be the mouth piece and dictator of the global government. As far as how dreadful and terrible it will be, I believe Islam will play a major role in the global kingdom, especially since they are known for beheading the infidels. I believe all religions will be accepted, except for true Christianity. We Christians will be labeled as intolerant for believing that Christ is the only way, the truth and the life; and we will not be taking their mark of the beast as well. So they will be leading the saints like sheep to the slaughter. I was just kidding about the protesting. However, I was serious about none of those kingdoms seeing the light of day inside the millennium, just as the verse you quoted above confirms. Like you, though, I'm still interested in watching this caliphate and wonder how it will turn out. Time will certainly tell. Cheers

Hi Marilyn, We sure do interpret that passage differently. We are not even close here. I see it as Daniel simply watching the vision until its completion, when Christ returns to destroy the fourth beast. The rest of the preceding beasts (Babylon, Media/Persia, and Greece were all succeeded by the following kingdom's in order, and that's how they had their dominion taken away. They were permitted to live longer because Christ will not return until the fourth beast is ruling, so their judgment will be long after their rule. This also one of the reasons I believe the Roman empire will be revived. I don't believe any of these kingdoms will enter into the millennium. If they do, I might be one of the protestors. Cheers

Yup, the old pre-trib / post-trib debate strikes again. This is one topic that really wears me down. It makes you feel like you're a ping-pong ball. But just for the record, neither one of those two theories are compatible with the biblical feasts, so neither holds water, even though one is much closer to the truth than the other. Now post-trib/pre-wrath is a different story. Just sayin' Cheers

Hi Marilyn, In the states, most scholars refer to these as dual prophecies and/or dual fulfillment prophecies. Cheers

Not in so many words, but he warned them to not let anyone deceive them. We don't know that it was actually the rapture per se that was so concerning to them. I believe the Thessalonians were concerned because some were teaching that the resurrection was already past. 2 Timothy 2:16-18 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. Hymenaeus and Philetus may have been telling them about many of the saints that slept arose after Christ' resurrection in Matt.27:52-53. But regardless, Paul made sure to tell the Thessalonians that our gathering unto the Lord will not happen until after the falling away and the abomination of desolation. He made it plain as day. Cheers

The Thessalonians did think that they had missed the rapture, but only because false teachers had slipped in when Paul was away, which is why Paul told them not to let anyone deceive them, neither by word or letter as from them, in verse 2. He then told them that that day would not come until after a falling away had come first, and then the son of perdition is revealed during the abomination of desolation. This passage is a stumbling block to the pre-trib rapture theory, but it amazes me how people keep refusing to see it. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Cheers

Just something else that points to Rome as well. Rev. 13:11 has the beast coming up out of the earth. It has two horns and speaks like a dragon: https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=A0LEVu5Oyp9TNHYAtIcPxQt.;_ylu=X3oDMTBsa3ZzMnBvBHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--?_adv_prop=image&fr=yhs-att-att_001&va=two+horned+mitre&hspart=att&hsimp=yhs-att_001 Cheers

just a thought.... have you considered that the "sword" that causes the head wound may be the Word of God? Hi Deb, Long time no see! It's interesting that you should mention this. I've been saying this same thing for about ten years now. I remember studying this for several months, and that's when I discovered something else so unexpectedly and then started another deep and long study before writing my book. I'm curious, though, can you recall who it was that you heard mention this on the radio? I thought I was the only one to come up with that, or at least I've never heard anyone else mention it. I said it again recently in Marilyn C's thread. If you're interested, it's post #76 in this thread: Glad you're back and I hope you stick around! Cheers Hi rT,, Heard it on Revelation News Radio ( blogtalk radio), program titled "Unraveling the Mystery of Reality"..... think it was on part 2. Was a guy named Josh, who is Freefall82nd on Youtube. I haven't checked him out on yt yet, been busy-- working 6 days a week now. I download radio programs and listen to them at work. I never really left, just dont talk as much here as I used to.I pop in and check things out every couple weeks. I never did get that copy of your book!! Hi Deb, I'll send a PM.

just a thought.... have you considered that the "sword" that causes the head wound may be the Word of God? Hi Deb, Long time no see! It's interesting that you should mention this. I've been saying this same thing for about ten years now. I remember studying this for several months, and that's when I discovered something else so unexpectedly and then started another deep and long study before writing my book. I'm curious, though, can you recall who it was that you heard mention this on the radio? I thought I was the only one to come up with that, or at least I've never heard anyone else mention it. I said it again recently in Marilyn C's thread. If you're interested, it's post #76 in this thread: Glad you're back and I hope you stick around! Cheers

Hi Marilyn, I'm not so certain that all of those verses you cited fit what John meant about the term antichrist. My point was simply that there are many antichrist's, as John said there were many even as he was writing those words about "antichrist." There's no doubt that believers will always be outnumbered by them while we're in this world and waiting for the Lord. However, I do know what people mean when they use that term. It's just that I don't care to use the term that loosely myself, because I have learned that this is exactly how assumptions and misconceptions are born. So, even though I understand what they are saying, I stop myself short of just going along with the crowd in these situations. I simply prefer to call it what it is, whether it's the little horn, the man of sin and/or the son of perdition. Prophecy is very confusing for many believers already, so I try to stay on the beaten path as much as possible. My hope is that this will help me guard against taking a wrong turn somewhere down the road. I see a similar problem when people mention the term "tribulation." Some call Daniel's 70th week the seven year tribulation. Some call the first 3 1/2 years the tribulation and the second 3 1/2 years the great tribulation, while others only view the final 42 months as the time of tribulation. And while we're at it, lets not forget about God's wrath, but I won't get into this now. I just like to be very clear when discussing these things, otherwise we might be talking about two very different ideas without even realizing it. Cheers