rollinTHUNDER

Hi Butero, The passage you cited comes after Christ had already mentioned that the sign of the Son of man appearing will be immediately after the tribulation (Matt. 24:29), which also comes after the abomination of desolation (Matt. 24:15). What we see in the parables that follow are clues to help us understand the gathering of the elect (rapture). Cheers

How about a post-trib resurrection, ENOCH? Would you settle for that? If so, eat your heart out. Daniel 12:1-2 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. That time of trouble is none other than the great tribulation that Christ mentioned (Matt. 24:21-22). These are both speaking of the same time and event. But pre-tribbers continue to deny it. No need to argue with them, though, because they will find out as soon as the seven year covenant is confirmed, when they are still here with the rest of us. I hope they have a back up plan! Cheers

Hope this helps. Revelation 11:1-3 I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” Cheers

Hi Willa, I have not read this entire thread, nor do I have the time to, but I will say that I don't see anything wrong with your statement above. It appears to be correct on every point in my opinion. Cheers

For some believers, that will become a reality. It's funny in a way, some believers expect to be raptured, some expect to become martyrs and some expect to be protected until Christ returns. Which of these is true, that is the $64,000.00 question?????? The answer is (all of the above). The thing that makes this mystery so confusing and controversial is that most people do not realize that there will be three different rewards for believers. Not every believer will be ready when the Bridegroom appears. There will also be martyrs that will be overcome by the beast (Rev. 13:7), and then there will also be survivors that knew not to take the mark of the beast (Matt. 25:31-46). If you want to be protected until the second coming, that will be no problem at all. But rest assured that His faithful servants will have already met Him in the clouds/air by then. And they will be returning with Christ at the second coming (Rev. 19:11-21), and so will the martyrs (Rev. 20:4), and they both will rule over the survivors (sheep) on the earth (those that get separated from the goats). So yes, I agree with you - for some, there will be no rapture. Cheers

Hi fotw, Yes, we need to be watching, sober and alert, but what are we watching for? Where does God's Word promise a rapture before the tribulation? We must not be watching the same thing(s). Cheers

I'd like to give a triple Amen! to the section in red that I highlighted. It's quite concerning that an event that we have no control over (the timing of the rapture) can cause such division and strife while something that we do have control over (being ready) hardly gets emphasized. The attention that both receive seem inversely proportional to their relevance. Bulls-eye!!! Good observation by both of you! Being ready is the key! This usually gets completely overlooked by many. This is why I wrote a book about it. Cheers

Hi Last Daze, I think I am the someone in which Daniel was referring to here. However, I agree with your answer for the most-part. The great tribulation (Matt. 24:21) and time of trouble (Dan. 12:1) are both referring to the same period that occurs after the abomination of desolation (mid-week), in which the world will enter into a major world crisis that has not been seen since there was a nation (unprecedented). World War II will pale in comparison, but this is not God's wrath. War and Jacob's trouble, yes, but God's wrath, no. If you read about Jacob's trouble, it is a judgment against Israel the nation, but God will also save her at that time as well. Not all of God's judgments are His wrath. He also uses judgments to shake and punish nations, but the Day of the Lord will be much different. His wrath (burning anger) will destroy (kill) all of the wicked and disobedient then. The Day of the Lord will be God's wrath and it will be swift, during the second coming (Armageddon). We will not see this day, at least until after all of the martyrs have been killed (Rev. 6:9-11). However, the saints, those who are ready (rapture) and the martyrs will be returning at that time with the Lord (Rev. 19:11-21). Cheers

Those are what I call signs that precede His coming, and those who know them are the ones who won't be in the dark. Good chatting with you too! Cheers

Hi Marilyn, You may believe the Gog-Magog war of Ezek. 38 occurs pre-70th week, but I do not. I have Ezek. 38 occurring in the great tribulation and ending with Ezek. 39 (Armageddon). Burning weapons for seven years would not amount to a great tribulation such as the world has never seen. I have them burning these weapons after Armageddon for 7 yrs. into the millennium. Daniel and Christ have clearly outlined the great tribulation, and both place it after the abomination of desolation (mid-week, Dan.11:31-36, Matt.24:15). Let's see if they are not describing the same event. Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Neither Daniel or Christ mentioned anything about a 3 1/2 year tribulation before the abomination. This was supposed to be a confirming of a covenant or peace settlement, which would in no way resemble a tribulation, that is, not until the covenant is broken. Then all bets are off. Cheers

So you think the great tribulation is God's wrath and judgment?

Wait a second. The Lord will come just before...what?

Couldn't have said it better. The term "tribulation" has been so misapplied, usually in an effort to conform the Bible to an idea, even to the point of making it synonymous with "judgment". Other terms, such as "ten nation federation", "seal judgments", "revived Roman empire", "Antichrist's lieutenant" are other terms, along with "seven year tribulation" and "seven year time of judgment" that I consider unbiblical. I also don't think the Bible carves out a specific time of tribulation that is different from the great tribulation in the end times. This type of teaching was foretold long ago. 2 Timothy 4:1-4 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. It's sad really, but who would have ever imagined how bad this would become? Not only is this nonsense found in the commentary sections of some of the newer translations, but they are actually teaching this garbage as truth in many theological seminaries to our young men wanting to enter into the ministry. It will take them many years to discover that they have been misled and most of them will never even know. No wonder Christ chose His disciples from among fishermen, tax collectors and the common men of that day, because He knew their minds were not already corrupted by the religious hypocrites. Cheers

Modern scholars have cooked up the so-called seven year tribulation to help identify their various rapture theories, when they started adding prefixes (pre, mid and post) to the tribulation. Daniel's 70th week, however, will in fact, be seven years in duration, but the term "seven-year-tribulation" is not biblical. These same scholars try to say the first 3 1/2 years are the tribulation, and the second 3 1/2 years are the great tribulation, which is not biblical either. Daniel and Christ both have the tribulation period occurring after the abomination of desolation, which begins in the midst of the week, and scriptures do identify this time as 1260 days, forty-two months and/or 3 1/2 years for (time, times and the dividing of time). These 3 1/2 years all occur in the second half of the seven year period. There is no such numbering of days for the first half of the seven years anywhere in the Bible. Daniel 12:1 calls this a time of trouble, which also occurs after the abomination of desolation. These scholars also believe the first half is a false peace when Israel will finally be permitted to rebuild the Temple, but if this is a false peace, then it can not be anything close to resembling an unprecedented time of trouble or tribulation. They can't have it both ways, but that old adage is true, if you keep saying something long enough, eventually many people will start believing it, which is exactly where we are at today, in the midst of a huge misconception. I can't find it anywhere. Can someone please tell me where it is? Show me in God's Word where we have mention of a seven year tribulation. Oh, and good luck! Cheers

I've heard that it was off by 220 years, but not 240. I think such a claim is entirely possible, but who can prove it? That is the question in my mind. On the other hand, I would definitely think it was off by about 200 years or so very easily, since we have been in the generation that will witness the end time events and second coming. According to scripture He can not come until after 2000 years since His first advent. Another thing that should be considered is the extra 5 1/4 days the Gregorian calendar has been adding every year and how long we have been counting this way. Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. Cheers

It would be great for the GOP to take control of the Senate. But last time they had control of both houses nothing meaningful seemed to get done then either. I think there is way too much corruption on both sides. As far as the presidential election in 2016, good luck. I think the fat lady already started singing in 2012 when Obama-nation got re-elected. If there are any good candidates that run, you can bet the media will smear their names in the mud and we the people will once again be voting for the least of two evils. The elite will have their way, no matter who wins. Don't be surprised if we have another Clinton vs. Bush scenario. Clinton is a progressive globalist, and the Bushes are a little bit more discreet, but don't forget daddy Bush was the first to push the new world order agenda. Cheers

I disagree, those who are ready, watching and alert will escape via the rapture. They are kept from the hour of trial, not the tribulation (Rev. 3:10-11). They will have a choice in whether to take the mark in their hand or in their forehead, but anyone that takes this mark will instantly become a slave to the beast and his new world order. This is why I believe it will be the strong delusion for those who don't love the truth, but instead have pleasure in unrighteousness. No one can buy or sell without it, and once someone takes it they will be under the control of the beast. Step out of line and they can cut your account off and there's nothing they can do to stop it. The beast will be all powerful over everyone who takes it. And they will all be giving the trust and allegiance to the beast whether they realize it or not. That's right, even the atheists who don't worship any god, once they take the mark, they will become a subordinate slave of this dark world, where Satan is the prince. So they will take the mark and worship the beast by default, whether they know it or not, and this is why it's a strong delusion and the dirtiest trick the devil has played since the garden of Eden, when he deceived Eve, who later deceived Adam. It's same ole rotten fruit again, just in a different package. If you want to eat from that tree again, go right ahead. But you can't say you weren't warned. Cheers I don't get where you think I have any intention of flirting with the mark. I never said that, in fact, I've stated the opposite. I understand what the mark is and what choosing it means. It will show what people love more...Jesus or the things of this world. As long as believers understand that and are ready to forfeit everything, even their lives, then I don't really care when people think the rapture happens or any of that. Hope for the best but plan for the worst. Its simply the best approach. Hi Last Daze, I don't recall stating what your intentions were. I'm actually on your side brother and we're all in this together. But it did appear that you were wrestling with some of these mark of the beast passages. It did seem to me that you were leaning towards the idea that believers would be able to take the mark, just as long as they don't bow down and worship the beast. That's why I wanted to step in and tell you about the strong delusion, because you may not be the only one with these questions. This is a public forum and my reply was intended for other readers and even guests who are not members as well. No offense, brother. But don't you think it would be a sin, if you saw a brother who may be heading towards a known danger, and you failed to warn him of those dangers ahead? I'm very glad that you would have nothing to do with the mark, but when you stated that you were not so sure, that could have possibly made someone else stumble. This is why I felt the need to speak up, and shame on me if I failed to do so. Cheers

Hi Marilyn, Interesting dates and moves. Is that future projection a prediction of yours? Always nice to chat with my sister from the land down under! Cheers

I have seen the cdc in action against an epidemic and they were at that time quite competent. Tonight I read an article where they told the second nurse who came down with ebola that it was ok for her to fly on a commercial flight despite her fever. The level of incompetence in the cdc now .... I really cannot put this in words. If this is not a deliberate attempt to infect our country with ebola than these people are the most incompetent folks ever. The cdc handles ebola in their lab. They supposedly know what to do about it. I am having a hard time believing they messed this up so badly. I am heartsick over this. Hi ayin, You mean, sometimes things just happen, like "accidentally on purpose?" Yep, there certainly seems to be way too much incompetence going on here. Every time we turn around there's always another case of stupidity with this administration. There's no way all these issues can be coincidental in my view. Obama is getting away with murder, and frankly, I don't believe this nation can last another two years. There's no doubt in my mind, this puppet was brought in to be the destroyer.

Not to mention how many cars and trucks they have totaled.

I agree that believers will be persecuted during the great tribulation period. I understand the great tribulation to be the time where the false prophet gives life to the image and issues the "worship the image or die" ultimatum. I also see the mark of the beast as being part of that worship. Believers refuse to worship and are put to death. Hi Last Daze, 1) What scripture leads you to believe the great tribulation (42 month/1260 days) is the time when the mark of the beast will be enforced? 2) In a word, no. Taking the mark is not an option for believers. Anyone who takes it is doomed (Rev. 14:9-10). Believers who are caught unaware will have only two options. They can refuse the mark and become a martyr. Those who choose this path will be among the saints that will return with Christ (Rev. 20:4). But then there will be another group that will not have enough faith to die for what they believe. These must try to survive until the Lord returns, which also means they will be protected through God's wrath. They will want to die, but death will flee from them. All of their works will be burned up, yet God will still save them. These are the sheep that will be separated from the goats when the Lord returns to judge the nations. They will be ruled over by Christ and the saints that return with Him to reign on the earth during the millennium; and they will also be the ones who will re-populate the earth. 3) No, scripture is very clear on this. Anyone who takes the mark will have just sold his soul to Satan for all of eternity, game over. I believe this is the strong delusion that will come upon all who do not love the truth. I believe I already answered your second question above. Cheers 1) I don't think the great tribulation lasts for 42 months. Rev7:9... speaks to the great tribulation and martyrdom. Hi Last Daze, I see where a great multitude was standing around the throne. They came out of the great tribulation and washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb. That's by Christ' blood, not their own. There is nothing mentioned that gives any indication that they are martyrs. These were standing around the throne, but the souls of the martyrs will be seen under the altar. I disagree, those who are ready, watching and alert will escape via the rapture. They are kept from the hour of trial, not the tribulation (Rev. 3:10-11). They will have a choice in whether to take the mark in their hand or in their forehead, but anyone that takes this mark will instantly become a slave to the beast and his new world order. This is why I believe it will be the strong delusion for those who don't love the truth, but instead have pleasure in unrighteousness. No one can buy or sell without it, and once someone takes it they will be under the control of the beast. Step out of line and they can cut your account off and there's nothing they can do to stop it. The beast will be all powerful over everyone who takes it. And they will all be giving the trust and allegiance to the beast whether they realize it or not. That's right, even the atheists who don't worship any god, once they take the mark, they will become a subordinate slave of this dark world, where Satan is the prince. So they will take the mark and worship the beast by default, whether they know it or not, and this is why it's a strong delusion and the dirtiest trick the devil has played since the garden of Eden, when he deceived Eve, who later deceived Adam. It's same ole rotten fruit again, just in a different package. If you want to eat from that tree again, go right ahead. But you can't say you weren't warned. Cheers

I agree that believers will be persecuted during the great tribulation period. I understand the great tribulation to be the time where the false prophet gives life to the image and issues the "worship the image or die" ultimatum. I also see the mark of the beast as being part of that worship. Believers refuse to worship and are put to death. Hi Last Daze, What scripture leads you to believe the great tribulation (42 month/1260 days) is the time when the mark of the beast will be enforced? In a word, no. Taking the mark is not an option for believers. Anyone who takes it is doomed (Rev. 14:9-10). Believers who are caught unaware will have only two options. They can refuse the mark and become a martyr. Those who choose this path will be among the saints that will return with Christ (Rev. 20:4). But then there will be another group that will not have enough faith to die for what they believe. These must try to survive until the Lord returns, which also means they will be protected through God's wrath. They will want to die, but death will flee from them. All of their works will be burned up, yet God will still save them. These are the sheep that will be separated from the goats when the Lord returns to judge the nations. They will be ruled over by Christ and the saints that return with Him to reign on the earth during the millennium; and they will also be the ones who will re-populate the earth. No, scripture is very clear on this. Anyone who takes the mark will have just sold his soul to Satan for all of eternity, game over. I believe this is the strong delusion that will come upon all who do not love the truth. I believe I already answered your second question above. Cheers

Hi kwik, I believe that some will literally die from the wild beasts as well. People die from snake bites, shark attacks, bears, etc...every single year, but their numbers are relatively low. I simply do not expect them to be a very large number, or at least not in the millions or anywhere close. I posted a passage from the KJV. I'm not sure why the KJV translators didn't use the word "pestilences" while most other translations did. I'm not one to make a mountain out of a mole hill, though, so I'll leave that argument for others. For me, I see something even stranger than that, though, I do not care to argue over it either. But let's take another look at this. Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. I understand killing with a sword. I understand killing with hunger, but I do not understand killing with death. To me, that just sticks out like a sore thumb. Cheers

Medical people for the same amount of time and much longer have been watching for the next big pandemic. This isnt new. Hi ayin, Nothing in the prophecy suggests that it has to be a new disease to qualify. The bottom line is that one out of every four people on earth will die by war, famine or from the wild beasts (AIDS, Ebola, Swine flu etc...). If that is not gripping enough, there is another prophecy near the end that has another one-third of mankind being killed, which after adding these two together, means that half of the earths population will be killed. That's a stretch of scripture. it could mean what it says , wild beasts.. I don't think it's a stretch at all, not when Christ called it pestilences (diseases). Matthew 24:6-8 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. Cheers Well, to get all technical on you here, the thing you posted didn't have the pestilences in the quote. Nothing in the prophecy suggests that it has to be a new disease to qualify. The bottom line is that one out of every four people on earth will die by war, famine or from the wild beasts (AIDS, Ebola, Swine flu etc...). It really did seem to me that you were saying that wild beasts are AIDS, Ebola and Swine Flu.... just sayin' Okay, since there are now two of you not catching my drift, I'll try to be a little more clear. Many of the other translations of this passage do include "pestilences or diseases." Also, AIDS, Ebola, Swine flu, Bird flu, Hoof and mouth disease, etc., etc. are not wild beasts, but rather they are diseases that come from the wild beasts. Hope that clears things up a bit. I apologize for the confusion.

Medical people for the same amount of time and much longer have been watching for the next big pandemic. This isnt new. Hi ayin, Nothing in the prophecy suggests that it has to be a new disease to qualify. The bottom line is that one out of every four people on earth will die by war, famine or from the wild beasts (AIDS, Ebola, Swine flu etc...). If that is not gripping enough, there is another prophecy near the end that has another one-third of mankind being killed, which after adding these two together, means that half of the earths population will be killed. That's a stretch of scripture. it could mean what it says , wild beasts.. I don't think it's a stretch at all, not when Christ called it pestilences (diseases). Matthew 24:6-8 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. Cheers