bryan

No luck with Firefox on Windows, either.  Sent a PM to a mod and waiting for a reply.

A couple days ago the chat section in Worthy is largely blank for me.  No names, blank chat area, and just a gear symbol in the upper left.  Clicking on that does nothing.

Yesterday, that changed and now I see a prompt for a password: "Enter the password for this chat room." with some options such as join, cancel, change your name, etc.  

I'm on a Chromebook using Chrome as my browser.  Using an icognito window with no browser extensions yield the same screen.  

The rest of the forum works normally for me, but for now chat is unavailable.

One group renamed yoga positions 'Praise moves' and offers it as Christian.  Many stretches are similar to those in military physical training or those recommended for office workers to avoid issues caused by sitting all day.  Some yoga practices are only exercise and stretches with zero spiritual content, others include much meditation and spiritual parts.

18 minutes ago, one.opinion said:

It is absolutely true that the media frequently overstates and sensationalizes actual reasearch findings. But let’s no go overboard with unsupportable claims like the 90% figure.

90% sounds about right.  Beyond published studies that are in peer reviewed journals, take a look at how few of the work cited can be repeated.  Things are frequently not as they appear.

I've researched them a bit and they seem to be overpriced right now.  There are some DIY kits one can purchase to convert a bike into an ebike.  

Have you seen the bikes where you stand up to pedal?  They're a bit like an elliptical crossed with a bike.

These remind me of the BITE model for cult mind control.  Many of the items in it happen in churches as well as other parts of life.

The BITE Model

I.	Behavior Control
II.	Information Control
III.	Thought Control
IV.	Emotional Control

Behavior Control

1. Regulate individual’s physical reality 
2. Dictate where, how, and with whom the member lives and associates or isolates 
3. When, how and with whom the member has sex 
4. Control types of clothing and hairstyles 
5. Regulate diet - food and drink, hunger and/or fasting 
6. Manipulation and deprivation of sleep 
7. Financial exploitation, manipulation or dependence 
8. Restrict leisure, entertainment, vacation time 
9. Major time spent with group indoctrination and rituals and/or self indoctrination including the Internet 
10. Permission required for major decisions 
11. Thoughts, feelings, and activities (of self and others) reported to superiors 
12. Rewards and punishments used to modify behaviors, both positive and negative 
13. Discourage individualism, encourage group-think
14. Impose rigid rules and regulations
15. Instill dependency and obedience 
16. Threaten harm to family and friends
17. Force individual to rape or be raped
18. Instill dependency and obedience
19. Encourage and engage in corporal punishment 

Information Control

1. Deception: 
   a. Deliberately withhold information 
   b. Distort information to make it more acceptable 
   c. Systematically lie to the cult member 
2. Minimize or discourage access to non-cult sources of information, including: 
   a. Internet, TV, radio, books, articles, newspapers, magazines, other media 
   b.Critical information 
   c. Former members 
   d. Keep members busy so they don’t have time to think and investigate 
   e. Control through cell phone with texting, calls, internet tracking 
3. Compartmentalize information into Outsider vs. Insider doctrines 
   a. Ensure that information is not freely accessible 
   b.Control information at different levels and missions within group 
   c. Allow only leadership to decide who needs to know what and when 
4. Encourage spying on other members 
   a. Impose a buddy system to monitor and control member 
   b.Report deviant thoughts, feelings and actions to leadership 
   c. Ensure that individual behavior is monitored by group 
5. Extensive use of cult-generated information and propaganda, including: 
   a. Newsletters, magazines, journals, audiotapes, videotapes, YouTube, movies and other media 
   b.Misquoting statements or using them out of context from non-cult sources 
6. Unethical use of confession 
   a. Information about sins used to disrupt and/or dissolve identity boundaries 
   b. Withholding forgiveness or absolution 
   c. Manipulation of memory, possible false memories

Thought Control

1. Require members to internalize the group’s doctrine as truth 
   a. Adopting the group's ‘map of reality’ as reality 
   b. Instill black and white thinking 
   c. Decide between good vs. evil 
   d. Organize people into us vs. them (insiders vs. outsiders) 
2.Change person’s name and identity 
3. Use of loaded language and clichés which constrict knowledge, stop critical thoughts and reduce complexities into platitudinous buzz words 
4. Encourage only ‘good and proper’ thoughts 
5. Hypnotic techniques are used to alter mental states, undermine critical thinking and even to age regress the member 
6. Memories are manipulated and false memories are created 
7. Teaching thought-stopping techniques which shut down reality testing by stopping negative thoughts and allowing only positive thoughts, including: 
   a. Denial, rationalization, justification, wishful thinking 
   b. Chanting 
   c. Meditating 
   d. Praying 
   e. Speaking in tongues 
   f. Singing or humming 
8. Rejection of rational analysis, critical thinking, constructive criticism 
9. Forbid critical questions about leader, doctrine, or policy allowed 
10. Labeling alternative belief systems as illegitimate, evil, or not useful

Emotional Control

1. Manipulate and narrow the range of feelings – some emotions and/or needs are deemed as evil, wrong or selfish 
2. Teach emotion-stopping techniques to block feelings of homesickness, anger, doubt 
3. Make the person feel that problems are always their own fault, never the leader’s or the group’s fault 
4. Promote feelings of guilt or unworthiness, such as 
   a. Identity guilt 
   b. You are not living up to your potential 
   c. Your family is deficient 
   d. Your past is suspect 
   e. Your affiliations are unwise 
   f. Your thoughts, feelings, actions are irrelevant or selfish 
   g. Social guilt 
   h. Historical guilt 
5. Instill fear, such as fear of: 
   a. Thinking independently 
   b. The outside world 
   c. Enemies 
   d. Losing one’s salvation 
   e. Leaving or being shunned by the group 
   f. Other’s disapproval 
6. Extremes of emotional highs and lows – love bombing and praise one moment and then declaring you are horrible sinner 
7. Ritualistic and sometimes public confession of sins 
8. Phobia indoctrination: inculcating irrational fears about leaving the group or questioning the leader’s authority 
   a. No happiness or fulfillment possible outside of the group 
   b. Terrible consequences if you leave: hell, demon possession, incurable diseases, accidents, suicide, insanity, 10,000 reincarnations, etc.
   c. Shunning of those who leave; fear of being rejected by friends, peers, and family 
   d. Never a legitimate reason to leave; those who leave are weak, undisciplined, unspiritual, worldly, brainwashed by family or counselor, or seduced by money, sex, or rock and roll 
   e. Threats of harm to ex-member and family

Suppose you have a friend or acquaintance who had sworn off traditional churches.  Maybe they had really bad experiences with them when they grew up or such and they now view Christianity to blame for it.  What are some creative ways to introduce them to the lessons of Jesus and Christianity in general to show them how it 'should' work instead of what they experienced?

The Visitation seemed like a very different style and it wasn't favorite.  Blink by Ted Dekker was quite good, so I'm looking for more by that author.

23 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

That podcast he did about that gift of a Bible was pretty impressive. Unusual that a serious atheist appreciates the efforts of those who proselytize, and see it as a good thing that believers SHOULD do. It that podcast though you see an interesting dichotomy, a man who is extremely intelligent, but rejects the God of the Bible with total ignorance of the Bible. The question that he asks: “How much do you have to hate somebody to believe that everlasting life is possible and NOT tell them that?” is  question Christians should ask themselves. I have prayed for him in the past, and will do so again, thanks for the reminder.

Well said.

6 hours ago, ejected said:

This is talking to the ecclesia at large. Sound doctrine cannot be discussed. 

It seems that everyone is sure they know the truth, their perspective is the only correct one, and their scripture references prove their position.  When questions about that 'truth' come up, rather than considering the possibility that one might be wrong in some way they instead become determined to explain how others are wrong.  Asking too many questions frequently leads to accusations of not being Christian.

7 hours ago, Scott Free said:

The subconscious mind can not distinguish between reality and fiction. Everything you experience is assimilated into your mind as if it is real. Conscious reasoning is irrelevant and ineffectual and is not the source of your moral choice, its main purpose is to coordinate skeletal muscles. All your ethics and preferences for solutions are coming from the subconscious part of your being. When you pickup a hot pan the conscious mind tell you to drop it immediately, the subconscious tells you to wait until it you reach the table because you worked so hard at preparing this meal. Do you really want to pollute the source of your inspiration and corrupt your dreams? 

I've not heard that the subconscious mind can not distinguish between reality and fiction, or that ethics and preferences for solutions are coming from the subconscious.  Did that belief come from psychology studies or such?   If so, references would be appreciated for more study on that.

Does this fall into "Don't do things that lead you to sin"?  Some churches and fellow Christians avoid watching television, radio, music, movies, board games, etc. for the same reasons.

Cobalt - You seem bothered by my statement: "To understand the intent and use of the word 'homosexuality' in the bible, I found it necessary to research the original words translated to 'homosexuality'. "

Why is that? 

Culture affects linguistics, the meaning of words, and how they are used.    If one is to examine the original words of something translated such as the bible, it's not just a simple 'this word means that' process.  If our native language is English and we wish to explore the meaning of Aramaic or other root languages of the bible, we need to learn about that language than reading a language dictionary.   

More on that topic:

Linguistics across Cultures: The Impact of Culture on Second Language Learning

Abstract: The purpose of this article is to discuss the inseparable relation between culture and language and the implementation of instructional strategies for teaching second language through culture to enhance students’ linguistic comprehension. Language is not only the product of culture, but also is the symbol of culture (Gleason, 1961). Culture must be incorporated outright as an essential component of second language learning and teaching. Only after cultural issues become an inherent part of the language curriculum and instruction, can students be successful in their target language learning. Second language teachers, therefore, should pay more attentions to the diversities of cultures, identify key cultural items in every aspect when they design a language curriculum, and apply appropriate teaching strategies to learning activities in order to help students to bridge the culture gaps.

Source: https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED496079.pdf

4 minutes ago, Kristin said:

Are you a homosexual Bryan? 

No

To understand the intent and use of the word 'homosexuality' in the bible, I found it necessary to research the original words translated to 'homosexuality'.  Information about the culture of that time and location was also very helpful. 

The thread about dream catchers got me thinking about worshiping idols, the dangers involved, and some common fears of inanimate objects.   

Most objects have no significance.   Car keys, a toothbrush, and other items are just inanimate objects and have no religious meaning.

Some objects are reminders.  Crosses on our wall or necklaces may be reminders to ourselves and others of our beliefs.  

Some objects may be ways to focus our prayer to God, or they could be idols.  These could be candles or crosses we look at to concentrate.  They could also be statues of the virgin Mary for famous saints to whom people pray.  Is a cross on a necklace held during prayer an idol and wrong, or simply a way to concentrate on prayer?  Does it depend only on the owner's intent?

Some objects are not significant until we give them power and meaning.  A Ouija board game in a store is just an inanimate object, but if it's purchased and the owners believe it can be used to contact spirits, it's been made into an idol that is now quite dangerous.  A dream catcher may only be a pretty stained glass item hanging in the window, but some people may give them power by believing they have some spiritual ability.  Some people wear necklace charms with statues for specific saints and believe it gives them special protection.  The difference here is completely with the owner and how they view the item.

Suppose one purchased rocks, prisms, or other inanimate objects from a spiritual / occult store?  These are still only inanimate objects, right?  They only have power if we choose to believe they do.  If we think a rock is only a rock, there's no danger, right?

My point here is not that these items are all harmless, but instead that they can only have power over us if we believe they do.  

What happens if we consider this view incorrect?  Would that would mean objects can be inherently dangerous and by themselves are 'good' or 'evil'?  That approach seems to require one believe that inanimate objects can somehow hold power over people.

Thoughts?

On 9/3/2018 at 3:58 PM, Fidei Defensor said:

While Hindus persecute our brothers and sisters in Christ in India, they are assimilating many westerners with yoga (a spiritual tenet and practice of Hinduism, Jainism, and Buddhism). Hindus don’t evangelize, they get people to assimilate their beliefs through Yoga and etc. 

Note only some yoga practices include spiritual parts.  Others are the same as physical training and stretching practices in the military or martial arts.    It all depends on who's running the yoga class.

Halloween is over.  It's time to switch to condemning Christmas as a pagan holiday that should not be celebrated due to its origins.

Local churches haven't proven to be very wise in their spending, so some research local charities and donate directly to them.

49 minutes ago, Cobalt1959 said:

It does not matter what it "can" do.  A car "can" take you to the local Circle-K down the street for a Slurpy, but unless you climb inside it, put a key in the ignition, turn it to start the car, put the car in gear and drive it down to the Circle-K, the car isn't going to do any of that on it's own.  It needs several deliberate and conscious actions to actually get it, and you to the Circle-K.  Does a car just sitting in the driveway get you to Walmart without deliberate actions on your part?

A dreamcatcher can't do anything just hanging on your wall.  It is a powerless inanimate object.  Should it be there, if you are a Christian?  No.  But even so, that dreamcatcher can do nothing on it's own.  It can't summon anything.  It can't suddenly propel anyone into the occult.  A gun can't shoot anyone laying on a table.  A Christmas tree can't signify worship of a pagan god just by being in your living room.  And a dream catcher cannot draw you into the occult just by existing.  An object is never the problem.  A certain desire and mindset is always the problem.

Thank you for a rational explanation.  

Giving power, i.e. desire, worship, attention, etc. is a problem.  An inanimate object on your wall, table, or other place isn't.  A dreamcatcher on your window that you like because it make pretty colors when the sun hits it?  Not an issue. 

There are similar items not discussed much.  Do you talk to or communicate with the pictures of your parents hanging on the wall?  Is that wrong?  How about a necklace, ring, or watch from your parents?  Is that idol worship of ancestors?  Are you assigning some power to wearing that necklace, ring, or watch?  Is that more idol worship?  

As Cobalt said, it seems that inanimate objects only have the power we give them.  

In places that have banned guns, the data has consistently shown it doesn't help.

Texting is fine, but talking on the phone generally isn't for me.

So bingo at the church is okay, lotto may or may not be okay, and blackjack is bad.  Very confusing.

Of the Mormans I've known, they have been some of the most humble, kind, and considerate people I've met.   Like Catholics, I don't believe entirely with their beliefs, yet they tend to know the KJV bible better than most people.