John3;16

Jesus speaks to Moses from the burning bush. Jesus is Jehovah! when Jesus said "I and my Father are one", that is what they are, it is beyond our understanding, but they are three personalities in one God head. Acts|7:30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush. Acts|7:31 When Moses saw

I believe the battle over works and grace for salvation is in reality the battle of fundamentalism and liberalism. Liberalism has at its roots liberty, liberal is in essence freedom, although freedom must have limits, that is the reasoning for the establishment of laws, and most laws that were enacted in the founding of this nation were based on biblical principals. And although their are some non secular influences the majority of the architecture was founded on the laws that were Judea-Christian, although liberalism has roots reaching back as far as the Greeks or Romans and most likely even further, the significance of liberty is relevant to, and is defined by liberties granted by authorities to the people, which is the case where non democratic states govern the people and in democratic states where the majority rules, or elected officials represent the will of the people, the Protestant liberalism of the 18th and 19th century sought for social reforms, such as the equality of man, they were instrumental in amending the constitution to outlaw slavery, and influenced workers rights, they helped bring about the 40 hour work week, one of the methods used by these liberal Protestants was to appeal to man

Suzanne Dear Suzanne Apologetics is the term, and it is defined as defense of the faith, you said that this thread is about grace and what it means, but you started this thread trying to redefine the definition of grace, I hope you will prayerfully consider the verses that I posted, because salvation is clearly defined and the way in which we receive it is likewise clearly defined. You said that you are a follower of Jesus Christ, but you seem to have no clue what grace is, nor what faith is, you are using a form of liberalism that was introduced in the early years of this nation, which the foundation is found in Oberlin perfectionism, and built upon the likes of Charles M Sheldon, Horace Bushnell, and Walter Rauschenbusch. And some of their theories are: man can be perfect and sinless and that this perfection would usher in social equity and justice, progressive salvation, not instantaneous salvation, these philosophers have altered what the word says to fit their own ideals, and intellect. But I will leave it at that . I will abide by your wishes, if you prefer not to discuss this on this thread. God bless!

Suzanne Whether or not you believe you can lose your salvation, the question that I believe is a greater issue is: how are you saved? I believe what the bible says, and that is that we are saved by believing in Jesus and his atonement for our sins, this is not an ongoing process, but we receive this gift, which we did not earn, at the moment we believe. This is what I believe is the process of receiving eternal life, I will list some verses that verify this. What do you believe is required to receive salvation? do you believe that we can be assured of salvation? Below are verses that I believe present the method to receive salvation. and if you reject these scriptures please explain why? John|1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. John|1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God,

Suzanne I will start from the bottom of your post and work up. I agree 100%, that is why our body must return to dust, until the Lord returns, then those who are alive will be translated, we will receive a glorified body, that does not tire, does not degenerate, will not be prone to sickness and disease, and will not be prone to sin, I agree in that day we will be perfect without sin. If you would have read the verses following the verse you posted, you would have had the answer, and that is that the body that we are in must be changed to an incorruptable body, (Glorified body), to inherit the Kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians|15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Corinthians|15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1 Corinthians|15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Corinthians|15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal

Grace is a wonderful gift, but only through faith can you access this gift, Susan many of the examples that you give indicate how we should walk, and that is in the Spirit, and if we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, but that does not mean that if we sin after we receive Christ as savior we are lost, when the bible says "shall be saved" that is what it means, saved, when it says "eternal life" that is what it is: eternal life, to receive eternal life you must accept Jesus as savior, confess that you are a sinner, believe in your heart that Jesus died for your sins, and accept his free gift. If we can walk an almost sinless life then we must accredit it to the Holy Spirit, but if you ask most Christians if they struggle with sin, and also sin on occasion, if they are honest I believe most would have to admit that they do sin from time to time, that is because we have a sin nature, the flesh is weak, and until the flesh is redeemed we are prone to sin. What you are advocating is a form of legalism, keeping of the law for salvation, and placing the word grace on it. Search the scriptures and notice that salvation is always accompanied by faith or belief, the word grace is gift, and it is free to us, but the cost to the giver was great. Acts|15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command

tsth If I have the power to choose, I choose to believe God

In Romans 3:24 the Greek word used for grace is: dorean which is defined as; as a gift (freely), without payment, undeservedly. Romans|3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: Romans|3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Romans|3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Romans|3:25 Whom God hath set forth

tsth Noah believed God and just as Noah was spared with in the Ark we (Christians) shall be spared from the wrath, something else to keep in mind, the whole world has been found guilty. Take a look at verse 2:1

tsth I don't deny his power, but to declare something is done in his power when it is not, or that we are sinless when his word says that we are not, does not serve God. because we are declared righteous does not mean we live a perfect sinless life, but that all charges are against us are dropped, because they have already been paid. We will have freedom from the flesh and sin when we are present with him, but we will struggle wih sin and the flesh until then. we can have victory or sin, and we can work toward perfection, but you must realize that we are imperfect. How did you become a child of God? Romans|4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? Romans|4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath

Good works are a sign of faith, and the spirit working in the believer, but that is not what is in question, at least in my mind, the question is: does the believer become sinless after receiving the Holy Spirit? I believe that the bible teaches that we will sin but that it is the flesh that sins, not our Spirit, which is sinless. Good works will follow the believer, but these also are not accounted for our righteousness, we are declared righteous by the blood of Christ, he paid for all our sins on the cross, and when we receive him through faith, then we are declared righteous, does this mean we become sinless? No, and that is why the scripture reveals, 1 John|2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:, his blood on the cross continually cleanses us from all unrighteousness. Being made perfect does not mean that we are perfect, but that we are declared righteous. (perfect) that is the issue as I see it. God bless!

the conclussion of the chapter reveals what they are denying: in verse 3:15...which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through the faith which is in Christ Jesus. 2 Timothy|3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 2 Timothy|3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned

For me, I read in alignment with Christ Jesus. Christ has no benefit to you, you live under the law, you have fallen from grace, you do not understand redemption, In Romans chapter 2, it is speaking of those who are under the law,(Jews), and Gentiles who were not under the law, and these Gentiles are not believing Gentiles that he is referring to here, if you read from the beginning of chapter one, you might understand the context, this is specifically speaking of how God will judge the world, and those who were in a different economy, we are under grace we are not under the law, under the law, all are found guilty, but even the law made provision for forgiveness, it was through sacrifice, that would mean that some one who sinned, was justified by an innocent animal dieing in his place, and it was to be without spot or blemish, this was a picture of Christ, who was the lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world, if you believe you are sinless than you are fooling yourself, and if you have one sin, you are guilty of the whole law, so you are then without hope, but God has made a way of redemption, through his son, and if we ask him to forgive us our sins he is just and able to forgive us our sins , and if we say we have no sin than we make him a liar. The promise was made to Abraham, and Israel(Jacob) received the promise through Isiac, the nation of Israel received the law through Mosses, but the law did not make the promise void, Israel failed to keep the law, and they rejected their Messiah, and even after this the Lord returned and sent the Apostle to the lost house of Israel, and this was a new covenant that he offered to them, when they rejected the gospel, the gospel went unto the Gentiles, but before this time the Gentiles had no real access to the process of salvation, and that is what much of the early chapters of Romans deals with. I would suggest that when you post a particular verse, read the chapter before and the chapter and after along with the chapter where the verse resides, this will most often make clear the context. you can not walk according to the spirit unless you are a child of God, and every one who is a child of God receives his Spirit, and the spirit can not sin, so it is no longer us that sin but sin that dwells in us. we are not under the law, we are free from sin, but the flesh wars with the Spirit and that is why we don't always do the things that we should do. not, at least not the law, for if there had been a law which could have made us righteous, than righteousness would have been by the law, no the fact is we do have a limited free will, the reason I say limited is because God can intervene, example it may be your will to rule the world, that does not mean that you will succeed. but yes I do believe in a free will and that is why believers choose to sin. the Lord gave a parable about a wayward son, who squandered his inheritance on riotous living and with harlots, and when the conditions became unbearable he returned to his Father, who ran to him, and threw his arms around him, and kissed him, he then had a robe placed on him, and shod his feet, and placed a ring on his finger, then the Father through a party, what do you believe Jesus was conveying with this story. I answered it above and in the previous Post, and I believe you should follow your own advice, and even if I am influenced by bible expositors, what makes you think that your interpretation is more accurate than theirs? God bless!

Shimshom The believer is living in a body that is not yet redeemed, and until death or the coming of the Lord, the weakness of the flesh is evident, and the war between the flesh and the spirit goes on, can we have victory over sin and temptation, absolutely, I have experienced victory over sin and temptation, and through prayer and drawing closer to God will strengthen you, we are called to put on the armor of God, this is a daily event, it gives us protection from the fiery darts of the devil, in the prayer that the disciples asked Jesus "teach us to pray", there exists a petition for the one who is praying that the Lord will deliver them: " lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil", this reveals our capacity to enter into sin or stumble, but the Lord is able and just to forgive us our sins, because they have already been paid for, and he has declared us righteous, through his Son. We are called to be holy, and one day we will experience it. Romans|8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected

tsth Take note of verse 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken to you, It was not their works, or enduring but the word. Yes he is telling them to abide in him, and in John 15:5 we see that we can do nothing without Him. the Apostle

Pilgrim7 It would seam that we are in agreement on how the unsaved come to Christ, and in reference to the saved person we also have some common agreements, but we also have some disagreements, you stated the saved person is a new creature, which is true, but what you failed to reveal is that we are a new creature with an old nature, although you did concede that the flesh wars against the Spirit which could be considered a conformation of this fact, but the way you expressed the state of the new creation (Saint) is a little bewildering to me, you stated "He is not in the flesh, but in the Spirit" that would be an absolute condition, and the significance of that statement would indicate that once you are saved that you are no longer "in the flesh" which would be contrary to the call for believers to walk in the Spirit, because if you were continuously in the Spirit and could not walk in the flesh or enter into sin, than there would be no need for the call to walk in the spirit so you don

My definition of saving faith is derived from the bible, it is believe or trust in what Gods word says, that Gods word (bible) is in fact God

the story of the sower and specifically those who receive the word but it does not take root indicates to me that they hear the word but they never follow through with confessing the Lord and truly believing in their hearts, notice they have no root within themselves, they have a stony heart, same with the one who receives it among thorns, the word never takes root, they hear and even understand but never make a decision to accept Christ. Pilgrim7 I believe your story about Bob and his grandfather would be a better example of our walk in this world, we do suffer the consequences of our living a disobedient life and the Lord does chastise his children, but the true issue is: will good works cancel sin? The obvious answer is no, our fellowship is sometimes severed by our involvement in sin, but our relation as a son is never severed, I will also post a story that Jesus told, and it is a picture of the Father and a wayward son, this I hope will reveal the heart of God: Luke|15:11 And he said, A certain man had two sons: Luke|15:12 And the younger of them said to

If you are asking the question what religion do you practice?, or what church do you attend? I will tell you that neither of these will save you, only faith in Jesus Christ will save and the work he did on the cross. The plan of salvation is very easy to understand and receive, the reason most won

What do these verses in 1John 1:8 -1:10 and 2:1-2:2 communicate to you? If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and if we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, because he said all have sinned. This is similar to when the Jews took sacrifices to atone for sin, as the law required. We also can approach the throne of grace to receive forgiveness for sins. 1 John|1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John|1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us

Precepts and context will reveal the truth of verses. If you read the whole chapter of Philippians 3, you will find the meaning of the portion of verses, that you posted. Philippians|3:1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed

The Gold tried in the fire seams to indicate to me that this is speaking of faith in his word, because what else will give you white raiment, only the blood can wash away sin, and since we are saved by grace through faith, we need to know how to receive faith, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God, and how shall they hear without a Preacher, God set up the structure of the Church, Christ is the head, but he gave Pastors to feed the flock, but without faith you cannot please God, without faith your raiment will not be white, without faith you cannot anoint your eyes with eyesalve, faith is the access to salvation. And even though every mans work will be tested by fire, the foundation is still Christ, and if the mans evil works (wood, hay, stubble) be burned up he will no less be saved, if he is a believer. 1 Corinthians|3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians|3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 1 Corinthians|3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 1 Corinthians|3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 1 Corinthians|3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. Romans|10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Romans|10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? Romans|10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! Romans|10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? Romans|10:17 So then faith

Pastoreric I believe we are in agreement, that works are what we are called to, and the Holy Spirit can guide us in works of righteousness, but salvation is a gift, that can only be received by faith, (faith is also a gift) and in a single point in time, if someone receives Jesus as Savior, they are saved for eternity, that does not mean we have a free ticket to sin, because God will chastise those that belong to him, the parable of the prodigal son illustrates Gods heart toward his children, even though this son squandered all his inheritance on riotous living, the father waited, and circumstances eventually drove this rebellious son back to the father. I believe God will cause the wayward son to repent, through circumstances, the Christian who tries to live a worldly life, may enjoy it for a season, but eventually they will become the most miserable of sorts, and some of the effects of sin will remain for the remainder of their lives, alcoholics will suffer from their addiction, same with drug addicts, those who are involved in sexual immorality can have lingering effects of guilt, S.T.D.

In the book of James the work that Abraham is being credited with is sacrificing Isaac, two things to consider, first Abraham did not sacrifice Isaac, remember God intervened and as Abraham stated, God will provide the sacrifice, but Abraham trusted in God, and was willing to sacrifice his only son, (which God said that through Isaac his seed would be as numerous as the stars), and the second point is that the sacrifice of Isaac would not be a good work, but having faith in God is. Romans|4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? Romans|4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath

There are many religions that teach eternal life is not necessarily eternal life, but that you must do good works and keep the 10 commandments to overcome, some even believe that once a person is saved that they must live a perfect life, and their reasoning is that the Holy Spirit indwells believers, also the call to be holy as the Lord said be holy as I am holy, and he also said that if we love him we will keep his commandments, but there are many who are in bondage, who believe that they are under the law, they are not living in the liberty in which we were called, some of the works based religions begin with mild forms such as Mennonites, some southern Baptist, many of the Reformed churches, and continues into the extreme views of the Seventh Day Adventist and Unitarian Religions. Even the Catholic Religion practices a form of works, and most religions of the world adhere to works for salvation, the concept of Atonement and Redemption are exclusive to Jewish and bible believing fundamentalists, although salvation through the Lamb (Jesus) is to known only to bible believing Christians, but where is the line drawn that separates those who believe unto salvation and those who are deceived and trusting in their works?