mike2

*sigh* That's the point I'm making. Athiests don't believe in God, therefore they cannot adequately explain why they love or even enjoy life. As for you cannot prove God....that's a HORRIBLE cliche that is anti-biblical. For one, we are told in the Bible that we are proof. Likewise...what about all the people that met God, talked to Him, heard Him, and saw Him? If you don't believe He can be proven, then you have no business believing in Him. You're merely hoping He's there and can't truly live like He is. AK I enjoy reading you and I have learned from things you have said Personally I think you have stepped over the line with 'man' by saying that just because a person doesnt believe he can prove Gods existance, they have no business believing in Him. I realize that is your opinion, but sometimes *sigh* you can be pompus in your self indignation. How many people have already proven Gods existance???? In all time how many people have? I dont believe I can prove my feelings, but I can show them. I believe in God, I feel Him, I know He is real, and Christ was as real as you and I. Some feelings you cannot prove through articulation, like love, you can describe it, you can show it, but you cant prove it. It's a valid point that I made. Basically....if we don't believe there is proof for God....then we are essentially denying the power done in our own lives....therefore there is no reason to believe. In that case we are looking at our own personal proof that we would rationalize to ourselves, and have gotten away from the original thought of communicating that to others I have often used the idea of taking God out of the equation and have found it useful to use the terms good and evil, and the balance of that in our lives, with non believers, once that was understood the question that inevitably comes up is, what influences good and evil.

*sigh* That's the point I'm making. Athiests don't believe in God, therefore they cannot adequately explain why they love or even enjoy life. As for you cannot prove God....that's a HORRIBLE cliche that is anti-biblical. For one, we are told in the Bible that we are proof. Likewise...what about all the people that met God, talked to Him, heard Him, and saw Him? If you don't believe He can be proven, then you have no business believing in Him. You're merely hoping He's there and can't truly live like He is. AK I enjoy reading you and I have learned from things you have said Personally I think you have stepped over the line with 'man' by saying that just because a person doesnt believe he can prove Gods existance, they have no business believing in Him. I realize that is your opinion, but sometimes *sigh* you can be pompus in your self indignation. How many people have already proven Gods existance???? In all time how many people have? I dont believe I can prove my feelings, but I can show them. I believe in God, I feel Him, I know He is real, and Christ was as real as you and I. Some feelings you cannot prove through articulation, like love, you can describe it, you can show it, but you cant prove it.

As a Christian I think there is validity to this approach. We see the influence of God all around us everyday of our lives. Moraly humans would not survive without it(all else being the same) This approach though recquires that we accept the positive influence as Gods influence. How would this approach work with say, a Buddist

I agree with you jamie, God has made the bible so that anyone can understand it. Our relationships with God vary in depth and that is expected because all of us have different backgrounds.God is God to all of us and the wonderful thing about the bible is that it can be easily understood or challenging depending on what you are looking for. I don't let it bother me that someone may go into their studies differently than me. Although I do find that I have to ask myself "is what this person saying honest and true or are they just being argumentative", I let the Spirit put Gods feeling in me or not, I listen or tune them out, but I ask for the Spirits discernment I think there are plenty of examples where Christians, out of ignorance, have gotten the true meaning of the bible wrong. I also think that there are instances where someone digging into the original languages have taken words out of context in order to push forward a theory or way of thinking.

God created us and God created animals God gives us life and God gives animals life What is it that allows us free will, but not animals? How does that differ from animals?

Just to support what the Bible says. There is no scriptual basis for dying daily. The verse often taken out of context to prove this point is most obviously talking about physical deaths. Paul was stoned, received 40-1 lashes some 6 or 8 times, suffered shipwreck 3 times, and the list goes on. Paul in the verse people quote to say I die daily was talking about being physically persecuted on a daily basis. And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for tomorrow we die. No need to die daily when you died once for all. I won't hijack the topic anymore. Although to the topic I would say don't destroy the temple of God that is your body. God made us for so much more than suicide. If you believe all things work together for the good for you (a christian) it becomes hard to imagine it coming to that. The verses about dying daily are about dying to your selfish and human desires. They go right along with "Deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow me."... They can also refer to withstanding tribulation and persecution. There is nothing unbiblical about this. The scriptural basis IS these verses- but it is not referring to physical death- death of selfishness- death of sinful wishes, and life of doing as Christ desires. These postings have given me a new insight I dont think anyone spends their whole life tip toeing through the tulips and smelling the roses, even doing that your bound to step in some fertilizer or prick yourself on a thorn. Having said that I think everyone at sometime or another suffers through depresion, and most often the cause of that deppresion is the worries of this world and how we arent seeing our life in the perfect way we think it should be. If we see it as Danij87 reminds us as dieing to this world we can actually look at these happenings as a blessing, although at the time they definetly don't seem that way. Man, if I think of all those times as "blessings" in my life, I might handle depression better This thread has brought me to this conclusion, and has reinforced my belief that even in difficult times the Lord is somehow working in my life, not causing those things to happen, but being there for me in places such as this, or church, or friends, or His creation..... But now that you got me thinking , those really bad times are when it seems like, me in THIS WORLD is no good......its because of the value I put on this world, and not attaining those values Interesting

It's not OK for anyone to be suicidal! But mental disorders can afflict anyone, just like physical disorders - Christian or not. I agree with nebula. I wonder if we might be confusing this question with.. 'if someone actually commited suicide'

Mike2, I just noticed that George posted this on World News yesterday late in the evening, so it made Worthy News. So, is that the news? I dont know what or if there is any significance to the happening, but it sure is fascinating. Imagine having to rush back into a helicopter because the ground is splitting and falling away right under you. Indiana Jones or what!

Did I miss this in the news, or was it never on the news???

How do they afford a computer? Anyways, I think you should pray on it and give if you feel compeled to give, if its a scam God bless them that they may change their ways. If doesnt hurt you finacially, then whats it hurt if its bothering you If you dont feel compeled to give, pass Sometimes God wants us to do something, sometimes its not for everyone. Just do whatever you decide in good concience

I guess you don't have the knowledge to express what you experienced You got me laughing, but also got me thinking about something. Ever go to introduce someone you know really well, but forget their name? (what is that ) Is that lack of knowledge? Or for that moment an inability to express yourself? Are they the same? Now that I think of it, what about when talking to someone about God and you stumble on something you know really well? Is it lack of knowledge or, is it because you are doing the talking rather than letting the Spirit guide you I'm not looking to pursue this line of thinking, you just got me wondering.

I like you

Remember the rich young ruler, who seem to be asking God to endorse his self-poclaimed righteousness/morality to be sufficent. Jesus discern that this man was really attached to his lifestyle. He told him to sell all that he had and then come and follow me. TOTAL ABANDONMENT Remember those who wanted to go see property, buried the dead father rather than accept the immediate offer to follow the Lord's will for their life. So the question will always be will you abandon your plans for what God has planned for you if He asked you? Is there a certain lifestyle that you insist on? From another angle will you use your current position in life as a missionary assignment? Can you absolutely predict that pursuing this career will not become a detriment to your spiritual walk or the walk of others? Will you use the greater income to pursue being a greater participant in the kingdm work? The last question which addresses your final lines, Are we here to consume life or spend our lives for the glory of God? I work with wealthy people (although I myself am not) What they spend their money on can sometimes be absolutely frivolous. The selfish, greedy, egotistical things I have seen from some people that I have done work for is absoluetely appaling. What I have seen money spent on for me to do work for, has been very disheartening when I think of so many with so little. Not all my customers are like this, but, unfortunately most. So many times I have asked myself and others close to God, "what in the world am I doing this for" No one but these rich people, and to some extent me, benefit from this, I then site all the things and more that I have described that are in my world. Then we get to ---How do I fit in Gods plan" and I look at the people around me and consider that it is THESE people (the wealthy) that are helping to keep me on a good path, and it is these people that more than any others I must be a shining example ( and, yes I can get tarnished) to so that when they are ready and the Lord presesnts the opportunity , they will know that, although I dont have their wealth, I have something different. My financial restrictions help keep me from falling into the same money trap as they. I have come to hope, and pray,the success of my position through the talent and skills that the Lord has given me, allow Him to place an opportunity, for Him, in their lives. I pray Lord that I will recognize the openings you have created for your word when they are presented. I still pray Lord that when I am tempted that your Spirit and word will remind me of what you know I can do, and that you will not push me beyond my limits. We are given skills and talents in this world, whether working for rich people, on the streets with prostitutes or some mission in the Congo. We all have a mission we all must dedicate what we have learned that we may get in the position to let the Lord use us In order to do that we MUST have a good Christian support group God wants us in all walks of life , to get His word out. But we have to rely on Him for the strength and support to not let us down when that life we are in becomes very challenging Think about this; who would a person covered in tatoos and body peircing be more receptive to, someone that is born again wearing a suit and tie, or someone that is born again with tatoos (and dare I say body piercing) Both have gone through their seperate experiences and God will use them according to His needs. We just have to live our lives with God on our minds mike

Hi David from New Bern,can you hear me?

I think I am having difficulty articulating exactly what I mean

Except? That's pretty much exactly what I meant when I said "Without experience, knowledge would have no purpose."...you put it much more precisely than I did Yes, we already have knowledge, the bare minimum knowledge to recognize God. But that is a different knowledge than that recquired to defend our belief as a saved person. I believe we have to have an experience with God before we will pursue and trully understand that knowledge

WOW YOU'RE IN BIOLOGY Enjoy it, study how it works, look at all the different parts and how it addapts to its environment, look at the complexity of it. Its wonderful, whatever it is you are studying, it is wonderful Now bring it to life. Nothing we know can do that Evolution is..... evolution God is life God will use whatever experiences we have in our lives, your doubts will help strengthen you for other things

Doors have opened, lights have been turned on I have not yet been on this forum long enough to really change my mind on anything. Although, some of the things I have read have opened my eyes or caused me to think about topics I had'nt considered I'm thankful that the Lord has blessed so many . Something I find fantastic, is that in this forum, as opposed to a conversation, there is time to reflect on what members have to say before responding. It has been a tremendous growth experience for me Thank God mike

Romans tells us that we know of God from all things around us Everyone knows of God Everyone does not know God Saul did not know Jesus Saul knew of Jesus In the sense you are talking I agree, except , we already have the knowledge, and in order to make our rlationship with God real we need the experience

It seems logical and responsible to me that you would look at both sides and all angles on a particular aspect of an issue, it is disciplined and I think admirable. God bless you I was wondering earlier what would come from a discusion on "what are the benifits to a "non-believer" hearing about God.' Paul was one of the people that came to mind when considering someone with knowledge, yet no experience of Christ. What I found interesting was that he was obviously well educated and an intellect yet didnt believe, and there must have been many people that told him of Christ My point is, his knowledge, his education. Although falling on unbelieving ears, never the less was being absorbed. However, it would have seemed, Pauls' intellect was wasted, because spiritually, he was empty. But look what happened when he experienced the Lord and recieved the Holy Spirit. That experience caused him to explode with all that he had been hearing, all the knowledge that had been stored up for the right time, I believe these writers had their intellect, but, Spirtually it was idle, until Gods Spirit turned the key and got them going No amount of knowledge will allow you, to trully allow God, to use you, unless you first experience Him Having said that, I still don't think that knowledge of God is more important than experienceing God. We have a responsibility and I think a desire, to learn about God, especially if we are going to witness or make a stand for our religious beliefs, and just like Paul, when the Lord is ready He will draw on what we have learned... and ...we can experience God even more Now, regarding defending your beliefs (those ALREADY saved) You cannot be saved without having had an experience with God, and without that experience you would not have those beliefs that you are now defending. 1st the experience 2nd the resulting beliefs 3rd the pursuit of knowledge to defend those beliefs still think the experience is more important without the experience there's nothing to defend, but a lot of hot air How about this; When we experience God and believe He is real do we recieve salvation? When we recieve knowledge about God and accept it as fact do we recieve salvation? Think about this, dont answer too fast mike2

I wanted to re-post this because I think much of what has been posted hasn't even acknowledged it. He isn't talking about general knowledge of God. He's talking about those who are already saved being able to defend their beliefs using logic (i.e. apologetics). Sorry, I was going off the first post, and the chicken and egg referance. I assumed that we were discusing what should come first mike2

Like eric said, you don't have to have an understanding of pain to know what it is when you feel it. What/ who is God is simply..... pure love. We don't have to have an understanding to recognize that as good and right. " [Are we putting experience B4 knowledge... because others dead in faith]" What a good example that knowledge isnt what is most important There were 2 good threads last week with CharlieC, one was THE TRUTH ABOUT JESUS, the other was STILL SPINING. I think what it gets down to, is that we can overcomplicate our relationship with God in trying to understand Him in terms that WE understand , in terms that we can referance from our own lives here on earth. In so doing we miss the fact that God has absolutely, positively figured out a way to make Himself easily known to everyone no matter how "simple" a person might be, or how complex a way someone is used to thinking. In fact there are many NT referances about avoiding complex thinking if it muddles your understanding, something that is very hard for some people to do I think experiencing and then undoubtably knowing God as a result of that very personal feeling that comes from that, is universal to everyone, no exceptions. Knowledge is useless (personally), without the experience of God, you're a resonding gong. I dont think I am baseing my Christian life off of other peoples failures, but off of other peoples successes. And off of mine. As a result of these successes, as a result of these God experiences, I feel that it is easier for me to understand why those other failures occur.....thats where the knowledge then comes in to play, and thats where the people that are gifted with the intellect of knowledge can really guide others that are trying to grow in their knowledge. I also think that ( and I have seen it happen time and again) that a believer with intellect has a very difficult time witnessing to a non- believer with intellect. Rather than discovering and teaching, it almost always turns into a debate trying to prove a point and find flaws in the others way of thinking. Yada yada yada... argue into believing kinda thing, "cant make them see/ understand." Then what happens.... they have a God experience and they get it! It is however, a fantastic voyage of discovery when 2 believers of the same intellect, with Gods love, get right into some deep discusions, I get this, real warm feeling. Hey, I get a God experience

eric, I really like what you said. mike I think the question, what are the benifits of hearing about God, to a non beliver (non-follower would be better) would be a good discusion