Honest Heart

Hello CarolynS, You made some very good comments on the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. I quite agree with you in what you said and in fact thing that it does have that application. I also agree with your final statement about too much argueing amoung ourselves. Shalome and Happy sabbath to you as well. Butero, I have to disagree with you on your views. If the parable had said anything about the rich man being a sinner and Lazarus being righteous it would be different, but as it is it doesn't. As far as the idea of having to be punished for sin; nonexistance IS punishment don't you think? When God told Adam that if he ate of the forbidden fruit, in that day he would surely DIE, not go to hell and suffer eternal torment. The Bible also says that the; 'soul that is sinning it itself shall die'. Also it says; 'the living know that they will DIE, but the DEAD KNOW NOTHING AT ALL'and, 'do all that your hand finds to do because in the GRAVE there is nothing, no knowledge, no work, no wisdom, NOTHING. Also the words translated as HELL mean the GRAVE. And when people died in the Bible they are said to be sleeping with their fathers. When we look at something else in the Bible that seems to contradict itself we must look to see what the case may be, because the Bible is in complete harmony. The fact is that Revelations was written in symbols and not all is to be taken literally. The lake of fire represents eternal destruction and the smoke of their torment that ascends forever shows that its worthyness of complete destruction as well as the destruction itself will never be forgotten. The last thing to be thrown into the L.O.F. is DEATH AND HADES, showing a complete end of both as all mankind will be in complete harmony with God and there will never be a need for either again as the 'tent of God will be with mankind'. Peace to you all. I'll be gone for the next 5 days, but will try to catch up when I return.

2thepoint, This account sits right in the middle of the other parables. Jesus only 'named' Lazarus. The other name was 'a certain rich man'. Jesus gave no reason why Lazarus was carried by the Angels to Abrahams bosom, or the rich man 'being in torments in hades', only that Lazarus was poor and in ill health and that the rich man was dressed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously, and later Abraham tells the rich man that 'in his lifetime he recieved his good things and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented". If you would look at what I wrote without prejudice you would see that this it supportive and makes sense. Niether one is shown doing good or evil to deserve what was given them. I don't see what you are talking about when you say good and evil are everything, at least not stated here. But I do agree that in the overall picture it is. About Abraham telling the rich man that his brothers would have to believe Moses and the Prophets I believe I mentioned something very like that. You have takem my statement, "it seems rather obvious" out of context. That is not nice. I also stated," In as much as our Lord doesn

In using the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus to try to prove anything about hell and the eventuality of those who go down into death one must remember first of all that it is a

Hello NewPilgrim, What I'm saying is that our judgement for life of death will not be until the time when all will be able to come to an accurate knowledge of God and His purposes. As I had said; we have all come from the fall from perfection in Adam in different ways. Some have greater weaknesses than others in one area or another while others excell in other areas. To be certain none are perfect and we are under the influence of the adversary, by and large and most people are totally blinded by him and his influences to the truth about God. Look at all the people in the world who don't belong to christianity and as such are condemned to death because of it. Christianity accounts for a very small part of the world population. Not to mention all who have already died. It would be totally unreasonable and unjust on Gods part to do such a thing. But as He is just and as you say, to which I agree, He demands obedience, how could such ones be able to decide to be obedient if not informed as to the truth about what He requires. Thankfully He is just and that justice demands that ALL be given the oportunity to make and informed and intelligent choice without the blinding and misleading effects of the adversary. This will be accomplished during the millenial rule of our Lord Jesus, when all will be taught, in Truth and love, about our Wonderful Heavenly Creator and His origional plan for all mankind. My friend I will be out of pocket for the next 5 days, but when I return, if you would like, we can continue this. If you think a new thread is necessary that will be ok. I believe my Email is public, just let me know. Just remember God is way more merciful than any of us give Him credit for. He doesn't desire any to loose out and in His great Wisdom has made just arrangements for the salvation of ALL that will, once thourally informed and with full understanding accept it....Bruce

The fact of the matter is this: Hell that we have been taught to be a place of eternal torment is not in fact that at all. In both the old and new testament the words that are translated as hell really mean the Grave. The Bibe clearly teaches that the wages of sin is DEATH, not eternal torment. Rom. 6:23. And Ja. 1:15 shows that "sin...brings forth death". God is LOVE not a demented being who delights in the pain and suffering of any. We were made in His image and if we see an animal suffering that is beyond our help, we 'put him out of his misery'. That is humane. God is no less. If you look in the dictionary you will find that the opposite of life (existance) is death (nonexistance). Thruogh out the Bible we find that those who die are actually asleep, (in death). John 11:11-14; 1 Cor. 15:6,18, 20; 2 Pet.3:4; Ps. 13:3; 1 Thes 4:13-15; to name a few. Job even prayed that he might go down into SHEOL, (THE GRAVE), untill God would remember him. I just don't think he really wanted to go to hell, do you. Sheol, meaning grave, being the same word that is translated hell in the OT. Another thought is this; Jesus said that it was Gods desire that all should "come to a knowledge of God and be saved". In essence before we will be judged at all we must come a KNOWLEDGE of God. True knowledge of Him and what He truely purposes so that we UNDERSTAND in TRUTH. You have to realize here first that the 'whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one' and that he is doing everything he can to mislead 'the entire enhabited earth'. It is not unreasonable to believe that much of what we have been taught by our religious leaders is not exactly the unadulterated truth. Down thru the centuries it has been watered down and mingled with false thoughts and the interpretations of men not necessarily lead by God, but rather their own ambitions, until we no longer have the real truth taught to us, but rather the traditions of men handed down. It was fortold that this would in fact be the case as it says in the Bible that wicked men would come into the flock and lead people away after themselves. In view of the fact that God desires that all should "come to a knowledge of God and be saved" He will not judge us until such time as we will ALL have that. During the miliniel reign of our Lord Jesus, and in the absence of the adversary and all his means of misleading the world, as he will be abyssed at that time, ALL will be taught of these Truths and brought to perfection. After such time, then will we be judged. With these thoughts in mind our worrying about going to Hell is not scriptural and should not be of concern to any at this time. God looks at our hearts and it is the intention of such that is improtant. We all have come down from the fall of perfection,(Adam) in different ways and have different strengths and weakness's. Don't feel condemned by your failings, as God told Paul, " My stength is made perfect in YOUR weakness". Jesus came to provide for,(cover) what we lack. Whe we truely desire to be pleasing to God, he makes us grow spiritually. This is not instantanious, but rather quite gradual much like we grow up from child to an adult. And besides all this, we are witness's just by bringing our lives into harmony with Gods requirements, and that to our ability. We let our 'light shine' as the Bible puts it when those we know see those changes in our lives and as others observe the godly life we live. One last thought on that is that when you are here in this forum and make these posts how many people do you think see the 'witness' YOU are giving? Go on 'letting your light shine' and know that your Wonderful, Merciful Heavenly Father knows the intentions of your heart and won't forget and in death we simply sleep and await the waking call of our Lord Jesus at the advent of his Kingdom.

Hello Shiloh 357, Thank you for your reply. About what you said about Jesus referring to God as his God while a human, all the scriptures that I quoted were after he had run his course here on earth. In Rev. he was givig John those visions from Heaven not as a human anymore, but rather, in his heavenly glory that was ressurrected to. In Heb. you stopped too soon, because in the 9th verse it says ..."God, YOUR GOD..." , and you didn' t even mention 1 Pet. 1:3 and Eph. 1:3 and 17. If anything here I am not taking anything out of context, but I'm compelled to think that you might be casting a blind eye to some very real incites to the truth we should all be seeking. In John 1:1 as it says that in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God, I have heard various thoughts on the latter part, but the WORD was indeed with God in the beginning as he is the "first born of all creation." and "thru him all things were created". This latter part doesn't show that he is God, but rather that God allowed him to create in His behalf. So in essence God created, thru him, as the tool so to speak, by which He accomplished all the rest of His creation. So as you say when in Gen. we are told that God said; "let us create man..." He was speaking to Himself (as Jesus) He was indeed speaking to Jesus, not as part of God, but rather as that first created Son thru whom He accomplished all the rest of His creation. Through out the new test. we see over and over again that Jesus was GIVEN various things and positions by God showing his subjection to Him. If we can just let go of what we have been taught to believe and look to God for guidance as we study His word He will open these truths up to us. The real issue is that we come to a knowledge of the TRUTH in order to come out of bablyon as spoken of in Rev. where Jesus tells his followers to "come out of her my people if you do not want to share in her plagues. I urge you to seek that Truth by becoming as a child, because just as Jesus said, " unless you come to me such as these you will by no means see the Kingdom of God." It is good that we can 'reason together'

Friends, If I might be able to interject a little something here. In Revelations 1:6 John speaks of Jesus sayig..."and has made us kings and priests to HIS GOD AND FATHER,". and again in Rev. 3:12 Jesus tells us that, "He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar In the temple of MY GOD, and he shall go out no more.I will write on him the name of MY GOD and the name of the city of MY GOD, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from MY GOD...". Also in Heb. 1:8,9 it says concerning Jesus: "But to the son He says: "'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, YOUR GOD, has anointed you with the oil of gladness more that your COMPANIONS." I the angels weren't his companions to whom was this refering? Also in 1 Pet. 1:3 it says, "Blessed be the GOD and FATHER of our lord Jesus Christ." and again in Eph. 1:3 It says the same thing, exactly. And in verse 17 it says, "that the GOD of our lord Jesus Christ, the father of glory..." And when Jesus was speaking to Mary outside his tomb he said that he was must ascend to "my God and your God' And just one more thing in John where it says that "you and I are one" Jesus also prayed that his followers should also "be one, as You, Father, are in me, an I in you: that they also may be one in Us." and in the next verse: "that they may be one just as we are one..." This showing what Unico said about oneness in purpose is what he ment is exactly that. Not that they were one person. Other wise ALL his followers would also be in the godhead. These seem very clear that God, Almighty God YHWH, is in fact the God of Jesus just as He is our God. Not to mention that the Jews of old never concidered God to be anything but just One God. Not 3-in-1, but ONE.

Friends, Remember that we are concidering Almighty God. The One who created ALL things. All the creatures, spirit and physical, as well as this earth and the entire universe. It would be a real mistake to even concider the He was not in complete control of every aspect of the goings on in His vast creation. He has a plan for the salvation of mankind and our earthly home. He has allowed things to go on as they have for these past ages in His divine wisdom, which we can be sure, is for good reason. I believe that it would also be wise for us to believe that even though He has allowed satan much latitude and has given into his hand the authority over the earth including the temperal governments during the same, that there is nothing satan could do to thwart that plan, try as he might. I am certain that in order to accomplish His purposes if He needs to overrule any matters at all He will. Gods plan for the salvation and restitution of ALL mankind is not a haphazard affair. He has a timetable and every aspect of it will happen right on time just as He has panned it. 'When the full limit of time is come'. In short Almighty God is in fact in complete control of ALL that is going on. Your Friend and Fellow Servant..Bruce

Hello Lawyer for God, I really like the way you have put your reply.... "God has a plan overall that will come to pass. Where you and I are in that is up to us. God's plan will happen to the day he wants it to whether you choose to be in it or not. To be in God's plan, we would be witnessing to others helping them come to know God before Jesus returns." Because ever since Adam and Eve fell from Gods favor He has set in motion a Plan to restore everything back to His origional intention. In fact He stated as much when sentencing Adam and through the His Prophets down through the ages He has revealed them to us and in our Lord Jesus the penalty was paid. According to what we are to look for as far as the culmination of that plan goes we are very near to realizing the full impact of the 'times of resitution' the restoring of all things spoke of by all those prophets inculding Jesus Himself at least in one place when He taught the desciple to pray..."... your will be done your Kindom come on EARTH as it is in Heaven." As far as the witnessing part goes our being here is a form of just such and it is good to hear from one whose insight into the Plan of God is evident. Keep it up, my brother. Your friend and fellow witness..Bruce As We Always Seek The Truth

About Gods Soveriegnity... There can be no doubt about God being the universal Soveriegn. Ps. 83:18 says, "that they may know that You, whose name alone is the LORD (YHWH), are the Most High overall the earth." That is never even a question. As far as Him being up there pulling satans strings; God made us all free moral agents even the angels. He gave us the ability to act on our own and to chose the direction we will go, even the angels. Satan allowed evil thoughts to take him on a very wrong course, in direct opposition to God. The book of Job that 2 The Point brought up, (which was a very good point), also shows that God has allowed satan to do his best to mislead man and pull those of us who desire to remain close to God away. In Gods wisdom he saw that the obedience of man could not be complete unless he, when being tempted, knew what the results of disobedience would be. By allowing satan to go on in his course and mankind to go on in its sinful state, God has allowed man the experiences in life to see what disharmoy with God and all His universal laws would bring. So you see that satan was given pretty much a free reign over the earth. Jesus at John 14:30 said, "...for the ruler of this world is coming and he has nothing on me." By so saying He was showing that satan was given that authority by God. Also it is worthy to note that when Jesus was being tempted by satan to give him the rulership of all the kingdoms, he claimed to have of the world, Jesus didn't refute his having it in his power to do so, in Luke 4:5-8 Paul also realized this. In Eph. 2:2 he said, "...according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." And again in 2 cor. 4:4 Paul, speaking about those who were blinded by satan, said, "...whose minds the god of this world has blinded." John in 1 Jo. 5:19 said, "the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one." And again in Rev.13:1,2 when speaking about the beast; that the dragan, (satan) gives it its power, throne, and great authority. Satan is indeed the ruler of this world; that is not to say he has any power above Gods, but that he is allowed to have it. It was given to him. The Good News is that all these 'experiences' that man has been allowed to have and which will help us all to make intelligent choices about our course in life, whether we will serve God or continue in our own way, 'doing our own thing' are rapidly coming to an end as the time for Jesus to establish his kingdom is very near. The time in which he will put satan into the abyss and return all things to the origianal intentions that His Father had in mind to begin with. Sickness and death will be done away with and ALL will be taught the truth about God and His purposes and then be able to make that intellegent choice. Just as Joshua said to the Israelites, "I put before you today life and death, YOU must chose life." When he was explaining to them about the 'blessing and the benediction'. I hope this makes sence to you and gives you some light on the matter. Your friend and fellow servant....Bruce As We Always Seek The Truth

Hi Josh, I've been reading the comments on your question with a great deal of interest. I have to agree with the sentiments of Chirsty. She said that only we ourselves can remove ourselves. On that point I have to agree. God looks at the intentions of our hearts and our sincere desire to alighn our lives in accordance with His requirements. All thru the Bible we are told about the struggle between the Spirit and the flesh. And in many places we are told that we are to be refined in the fire like fine gold. Which means that we will be tried in our resolve to overcome this world. In this way we show our desire to become sons of God and it is our desire to remain clean from the sin that so easily entangles us that He wants and promises to help us to do as long we continue in His love. However if we 'practice' sin wilfully and expect to be saved we are in trouble. The 'wages of sin is death'. There is a difference between wilful sin and adamic sin. It is true that all are sinners and Jesus' sacrifice paid the price for such, but as it says in Hebrews wilful sin will not be forgiven. So like I said at first God looks at the intentions of our hearts and if in it He finds a sincere follower then indeed there in nothing that can take us away from Him. Paul said that it is with 'fear and trembling that we should make our calling and election sure' and that we should 'work out our own salvation', and in another place he implicated himself as having the posibility of 'after preaching to others, he should loose out on the prize somehow'. All this showing that there is no guarantee. I have other thoughts on this subject that I will not go into at this time. I hope that this is of some help. As we always seek the Truth