Brother Chad

Okay Brother John,

I am going to take each one separately and try to explain them to you as best I can using the Bible alone. Here goes your number 1:

1. Jesus is God. On this we agree. As such he is all knowing. That would mean that he would fully understand if a "trinity" existed or not, even when he was in this world. It is ludacrous to me to believe that Jesus would pray to a god in heaven that did not exist. That would actually be an example of him praying to an idol or false god, which we are forbidden to do. If there were no Father in heaven, he would have had to pray to himself, which he clearly didn't do.

First, yes we agree that Jesus is God, but I believe that He is God the Father manifested in flesh. I can prove this with I Timothy 3:16,

I will give it one more shot with you guys and then you are on your own.

-There is one indivisible God (Deuteronomy 6:4). God is a Spirit (John 4:24) and therefore invisible to man (John 1:18; I Timothy 6:16).

-God is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent (Psalm 139; Revelation 19:6).

-In the Old Testament, God manifested Himself in many ways called theophanies (Genesis 18:1; Exodus 33:22-23).

-In the New Testament, God manifested Himself in human flesh as Jesus Christ, the Son of God (John 1:1, 14; I Timothy 3:16).

-In the Old Testament God revealed Himself by the name Jehovah or Yahweh, which means the Self-Existing One or the Eternal One.

-The New Testament often describes the one God as the Father (Romans 8:14-16; John 3:16).

-The Bible uses the term Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit to refer to the one God. Describing what God is and emphasizes God in activity such as creation (Genesis 1:2) and regeneration, baptizing, filling, adn anointing (Acts 1:4-8; 2:1-4).

-The Word refers to the one God, particularly to the thought, plan, or expression of God.

-God manifested Himself in flesh in the person of Jesus Christ. This manifestation of God is called the Son of God because He was literally conceived in the womb of a woman by the miraculous operation of the Spirit of God (Matthew 1:18-20). The Son did not pre-exist the Incarnation except as a plan in the mind of God, namely as the Word.

-Jesus has a dual nature-human and divine, or flesh and Spirit. Two complete natures are united inseparably in the person of Jesus Christ. In his human nature Jesus is the son of Mary. In His divine nature Jesus is the one God Himself (II Corinthians 5:19; Colossians 2:9; I Timothy 3:16).

-Jesus is the Father (Isaiah 9:6; John 10:30; 14:6-11), Jehovah (Jeremiah 23:6), the Word (John 1:14), and the Holy Spirit (II Corinthians 3:17; Galatians 4:6; Ephesians 3:16-17).

-The Bible clearly teaches the doctrine of the oneness of God and the absolute deity fo Jesus Christ.

-Trinitarianism contradicts and detracts from important biblical teachings. It detracts from the Bible's emphasis on God's absolute oneness, and it detracts from Jesus Christs full deity.

-The Bible does not speak of an eternally existing "God the Son"; for the Son refers only to the Incarnation.

-The term "three persons in one God" is inaccurate because there is no distinction of persons in God. He has one visible body- the glorified human body of Jesus. The only number relevant to God is one.

I don't have time to explain all these to you, but I don't think you have a clear understanding of Jesus as man and God. No offense here. Alot of what you just said has to do with His humanity relating to His deity. Nowhere does the verses you use show a trinity. Maybe I John 5:7 but we all know that this verse was added in the 1500's and can't be found on any old manuscripts of the Bible.

Do we now? Someone on these boards actually refuted that lie a while back.

I forgot who though.

I dont think YOU have a clear understanding of who Jesus is.

In the passages in Revelation both chapter 2-3, and chapter 22, he is speaking AS DEITY, and immediately makes that clear, by saying I AM ALPHA AND OMEGA. And yet you choose to ignore the implications of this in light of the passage from chapter 3 verse 12.

Was Jesus lying about who he was? No. Was he lying about who the Father is in chapter 3? No. Was he lying when he said he did not have the authority to grant Salome's request? No, and yet he definitely is and was God.

Yes, Jesus was God the Father in Spirit and a man in flesh. Did I get it right?

When you start separating the Father from Jesus, you are saying we have a tritheistic God. We only have one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ. This is what the apostles and Jesus wanted us to understand. Why do you think the Pharisees wanted to kill him? Because He claimed to be God the Father. (The Father and I are one). If this were a trinity, why not claim the Holy Spirit in this verse. Because our God is an invisible Spirit who is holy. God is a Holy Spirit, thus they are one in the same. Just different ways God shows Himself to us.

So I guess by all your verses on the right hand of God, you are implying that when we get to heaven we will see Jesus literally sitting on the right hand of God? I thought you said He was God. I guess the Holy Spirit will be sitting on His knee. It makes no sense. You can interpret anyway you want, but the monotheistic Jews who wrote the Bible did not believe in a trinity and neither will I.

Here are some basic questions for you to answer.

1) How can the Son not know as much as the Father, yet be Co-EQUAL? (Matt. 24:36)

2) How can there be an eternal Son when the Bible speaks of the "begotten" Son, clearly indicating that the Son had a beginning? (John 3:16; Hebrews 1:5-6)

3) Whom do we worship and to whom do we pray? Jesus said to worship the Father (John 4:21-24), yet Stephen prayed to Jesus (Acts 7:59-60).

4) There is only one throne in heaven (Revelation 4:2). Who sits upon it? We know Jesus does (Revelation 1:8, 18, 4:8). Where do the Father and the Holy Spirit sit?

5) Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus? Colossians 2:9 says the latter.

6) If Son and Holy Ghost are co-equal persons in the Godhead, why is blasphemy of the Holy Ghost unforgivable but blasphemy of the Son is not? (Luke 12:10)

7) Show me anywhere in the Bible where these phrases are used: Three-in-One, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost, eternally begotten, three distinct but co-equal and co-eternal, three separate but united in power and purpose; persons in the Godhead, the person of the Holy Ghost, the person of the Father, three but not three but One, three expressed as One, triune God.

Check this out: God is Eternal and what does the word son mean, "offspring". A being that is Eternal and an offspring is impossible to explain or comprehend because it is an impossibility!!!

Points 1, 2, 5, and 6. All of these are assumptions or misquided questions based on your limited experience with a few years of linear time.

Recall, scripture records that Jesus prayed and asked the Father to glorify him with the glory he had WITH the Father, before the World was. So the glory he recieved after the resurrection was ACTUALLY the same glory he had from the beginning.(Jn. 17:5, )

Mark 16:19

So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Acts 2:33

Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Acts 7:55

But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Acts 7:56

And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

In the new testament, "Son of Man" and "Jesus" are interchangable. They are one and the same.

Recall also that in Revelation 1, John identifies the Speaker as the "Son of Man" and the Speaker identifies himself as "The First and the Last"i.e. Deity. The Same speaker identifies himself as the "Root and the Offspring of David", meaning he is AT THE SAME TIME fully God and fully man. You cannot seperate the humanity of Jesus from the Deity of Jesus, because he IS the Root of David, and he IS the Offspring of David. Then the same speaker anounces in chapter 3 that he in fact has a God, who is the Father. This in spite of the fact that he is himself fully God.

Point 3. This is a trick question that is really irrelevant to the issue at hand.

Point 4 you have diliberately ignored revelation 5, and as well the passages from Hebrews and the psalms., and as well other passages.

point 7: None of those terms appears directly in scripture, I agree, but that does not refute the underlying principles I have shown nor of the doctrine of the trinity.

Those terms don't appear because the doctrine is man-made. The verbage used to explain it are not biblical. And I agree with you that Jesus was both fully-man and fully-God. Jesus can say that he has a God because he was a man. He can say that He is the first and the last because He is God. But He is not God the Son, He is God the Father manifested in flesh. The Son is not eternal. It does not say that HE is anywhere in the Bible. He was born of a woman at a specific time in Bethlehem. He was there in the beginning, but only as the thought or plan of the Father. The Father knew that we would fall and it was the Sonship that made Him go through with His plan of creating us.

Malachi 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

What do you all think this is saying, without using your trinitarian minds. Just take it for what it says and see that there are not three persons in the Godhead.

Here are some basic questions for you to answer.

1) How can the Son not know as much as the Father, yet be Co-EQUAL? (Matt. 24:36)

2) How can there be an eternal Son when the Bible speaks of the "begotten" Son, clearly indicating that the Son had a beginning? (John 3:16; Hebrews 1:5-6)

3) Whom do we worship and to whom do we pray? Jesus said to worship the Father (John 4:21-24), yet Stephen prayed to Jesus (Acts 7:59-60).

4) There is only one throne in heaven (Revelation 4:2). Who sits upon it? We know Jesus does (Revelation 1:8, 18, 4:8). Where do the Father and the Holy Spirit sit?

5) Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus? Colossians 2:9 says the latter.

6) If Son and Holy Ghost are co-equal persons in the Godhead, why is blasphemy of the Holy Ghost unforgivable but blasphemy of the Son is not? (Luke 12:10)

7) Show me anywhere in the Bible where these phrases are used: Three-in-One, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost, eternally begotten, three distinct but co-equal and co-eternal, three separate but united in power and purpose; persons in the Godhead, the person of the Holy Ghost, the person of the Father, three but not three but One, three expressed as One, triune God.

Check this out: God is Eternal and what does the word son mean, "offspring". A being that is Eternal and an offspring is impossible to explain or comprehend because it is an impossibility!!!

Matthew 20:23

And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

If Jesus is not a seperate person from the Father, then this statement could not be true.

1 John 5:7

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Watch this, Jesus' own words...

Jn. 14:

16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

So there is a clear distinction between the personality of Jesus, The Father, and the Holy Spirit, to the point that Jesus denies ownership of the words he speaks, and attributes them exclusively to the Father. Again, this could only be true if there is a triune nature to God...

In revelation 5 we see the Lamb, who is Jesus, is a SEPERATE person from the Father, who is sitting on the throne.

In revelation 3:12, the speaker, who was earlier identified as Jesus, and as the "First and the Last", refers to one whom he calls "My God". If Jesus is the First and the Last, how can he have a God? Unless that "God" is the Father, a seperate person from himself?

Revelation 22:16 (Whole Chapter)

"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you. this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

This proves that Jesus is deity, and at the same time Eternally the "Son of God"; and that he did not simply gain that title due to the incarnation or the resurrection. Because he is at the same time the root, and the offspring of David. This is exactly why Jesus asked the pharisees the following...

Matt. 22:42Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David.

43He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,

44The LORD(the father) said unto my Lord(the Son), Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

45If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

(parenthesis mine.)

Hebrews 1:3

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Hebrews 10:12

But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Again we see that Jesus is a seperate person from the Father, and yet eternally deity in and of himself.

I don't have time to explain all these to you, but I don't think you have a clear understanding of Jesus as man and God. No offense here. Alot of what you just said has to do with His humanity relating to His deity. Nowhere does the verses you use show a trinity. Maybe I John 5:7 but we all know that this verse was added in the 1500's and can't be found on any old manuscripts of the Bible.

I haven't had time to get back to this topic for some time so I am going to give you all some food for thought. First we all say that there is one God (Galatians 3:20). There is no argument there. Now I will try to help some understand that Jesus Christ is that one God and not another person of God. John 10:30 says, I and my Father are one. This is not a unity, but a reference to them being one in the same. The Jews understood this and killed Him because of it.

Colossians 2:9, "For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." This says all the fullness, not a part but all, meaning the Father is dwelling in him (the man Jesus Christ).

I Timothy 2:5, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ." If trinitarians would just understand the fact that Jesus was fully God and fully man, this doctrine would be seen for its heresies.

James 2:19, also tells us that there is one God and that we should believe this, why not say here three persons in one God if that is what God wanted. The trinity is a man-made doctrine that was established 300 years after the apostles.

Is God the Father not a "Holy Spirit"?

Did Jesus say "The Father and I are one"?

Both answers are yes and thus we see that Jesus is God the Father manifested in flesh and so are both the Holy Spirit. You do not need to have three persons in the Godhead to accomplish what God did in the Bible. He showed Himself to us in different ways to do His work. Very simple!

This is explained very easily if you know how to look at the incarnation (I Timothy 3:16). Jesus was God manifested in flesh. He was fully-God and fully-man. For God to experience being fully a man He had to set aside His divinity in Jesus. Without this basic fact, neither the oneness view or the trinitarian view would work. Jesus being a man prayed to God, felt emotions, did not know everything, died on the cross for our sins. Jesus as divine healed the sick, cast out devils, and performed many other miracles. I used to separate Jesus' two natures to fit what He was doing at the time, but you can't do that and do justice to who He was.

You have not really explained yourself clearly here. You seem to be saying that Jesus set aside certain aspects of His diety, then claiming you can't divide them. Also I Timothy 3:16 discusses the incarnation, but is not a full theology of it. There are other passages that you need to bring to bear as well

I realize that there are other scriptures needed to prove my point. I don't have that sort of time to go over the whole thing all at once. God couldn't however be fully man if He used His deity to fight the temptation in the desert for forty days and nights. If He did this then He would not have been fully man. Correct?

God does not need to be three "persons" to achieve what He did throughout the Bible. We just need to look deeper than man's interpretation to see it. This is the truth that the apostles taught and somewhere after them man's explanation got off track trying to combat all the heresy going around. I will agree that some scriptures are easily interpreted to be trinitarian, but the Book as a whole does not support the trinity. God bless all of you brothers and sisters.

Actually modalism is a man-made doctrine and was not taught by the apostles. It was actually developed by Sabellius in 3rd century Rome. It basically states that Jesus is the Father and the Spirit and reveals Himself as such at different times. Actually you are favoring a single aspect of scripture (the unity of God) over other scriptures. The Trinity is actually a better statement of the entire council of the word of God. Modalism (your position) is not.

Even though there are aspects of modalism in our beliefs, we do not adhere to all of them. Same can be said of trinitarianism. The way it is looked upon today is different from the Nicene Creed and others.

So if Jesus is just another manifestation of God....why did Jesus pray to God? If Jesus is just another form of God...how is it God knows when He'll return but Jesus (God) doesn't?

This is explained very easily if you know how to look at the incarnation (I Timothy 3:16). Jesus was God manifested in flesh. He was fully-God and fully-man. For God to experience being fully a man He had to set aside His divinity in Jesus. Without this basic fact, neither the oneness view or the trinitarian view would work. Jesus being a man prayed to God, felt emotions, did not know everything, died on the cross for our sins. Jesus as divine healed the sick, cast out devils, and performed many other miracles. I used to separate Jesus' two natures to fit what He was doing at the time, but you can't do that and do justice to who He was. Jesus was God, but in order for God to really feel the temptations and trials that we go through had to make Himself fully a man. The only thing He lacked that we have is a sinful nature. You can't separate His human nature and divine natures. He is the only man who ever possessed both and they fused together to make the man Jesus. Think of it this way, if God had just come to dwell in a body and was not truly a man, then His sacrifice on the cross would have been completely pointless. We need a human sacrifice to atone for our sins and that is why God manifested Himself in flesh and became a real man. Forever more we will see the one on the throne, Jesus Christ, in all His glory! He is God. He is the Father, the Son, and He most certainly is the Holy Spirit. God does not need to be three "persons" to achieve what He did throughout the Bible. We just need to look deeper than man's interpretation to see it. This is the truth that the apostles taught and somewhere after them man's explanation got off track trying to combat all the heresy going around. I will agree that some scriptures are easily interpreted to be trinitarian, but the Book as a whole does not support the trinity. God bless all of you brothers and sisters.

Remember it is very hard to give up something which you have been taught to be right. If we look for ourselves with an open heart, Jesus Christ will open the doors and let understanding come in.

. It is man-made and the Bible through interpretation has bent to it, but the real truth is in the Bible and it is the Oneness of God!

On this we will have to disagree. The fatal shortcoming of the position you are espousing is that you must deny a multitude of scriptures that speak to the personal relationships that exist between the members of the God-head (or you must affirm that they were an allusion and not real). If you believe that there were not distinct prsonalities withing the God-head you must redefine what it means that The Son makes intercession before the father for us, and that Jesus sent the Spriit into the world. You damage the heart of the doctrin of the atonement, namely that the Father sent the eternal Son into the world and that the Father turned His back on the Son.

You also damage the doctine of the independence of God, because without the relationships that exist within the God-head, God would need humanit for relationship.

You also damage the doctrine of the God-Man. You imply that His divine and human natures acted independently of each other. These natures, according to scripture, were indivisible

The doctrine of the trinity encapsulates all of the verses that speak to the nature of God. One-ness theology ignores or changes verses to fit its structure

You should find out what we believe before you start telling us what we believe. The things you have said about us are not true at all. The "oneness" beliefs is what I am referring to.

Somewhere since I last came here we hit a stumbling block. There is actually one person in here saying that Jesus isn't God? Look people here is the problem I think we all stumble upon with the trinity. God clearly makes it known in I Timothy 3:16 that He manifested Himself in flesh. This we know to be true. Where we get the hang-up is not giving enough significance to the fact that Jesus was fully-human and fully-devine. He was GOD in human form. He wanted to feel everything that we do, temptations, feelings, struggles, and the whole mess of other things. Now if He had only used His divine nature in taking on human flesh, then He really wouldn't have been fully-human. That is why Jesus prayed to God, Jesus the man prayed to God. It is not God praying to God. In doing this the Son would have been subordinate to the Father. Only man needs to pray, not God. All these distinctions in the Father-Son relationship can be seen after the Incarnation. Jesus is both God and man, yet God wanted to be fully man so He let that nature rule in Him as man. That is why He did not know everything, that is why He bent to His Father's will and not His own, that is why He prayed, that is why He felt all those emotions He did and that is where the problem lies. In the Trinity you have Jesus' deity being separated from the Father's deity, when the distinction should be between the Father as deity and Jesus' humanity. God never stops being God when He takes on flesh and BECAME A MAN (JESUS), even trini's will attest to this. While Jesus was here on earth as God, He was in heaven too. Jesus was God in the flesh, the only image we will ever see of Him. You have to get the humanity in there to understand what God is trying to show you. The trinity has been around so long people take it for granted as right. It is man-made and the Bible through interpretation has bent to it, but the real truth is in the Bible and it is the Oneness of God!

Hi there, i saw the above thread btu didn't seem to answer my question, my question is regarding salvation and loss but nto exactly, i personally don't feel you can lose it however i was wondering if someone can clarify this point for me, i do not believe there are any contradictions in the bible the "apparent contradictions" i have found have always been able to be studied out so that is what i am trying to do here and if i am taking something out of contecxt please elt me know.

first off,

John 10:29

My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

10:30

I and my Father are one

this talks about man cannot take you otu of Gods family so nto sure if it applies, the key one is 10:30 jesus and God are one,

6:37

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

he and God are one so he nor God will cast us out.

then you have which seems to remove any other possibility.

Romans

8:38

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

8:39

Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

SO now that those are out on the table my problem is understanding

Revelations 22:19

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

the part that is bugging me is "God shall take away his part out of the book of life"

but given the above verses he won't cast us out and nothign else can remove us, so, i am trying to study out wether i am just misreading this, the book it's talkign about is the book that records the names of those correct? so am i taking this out of context or perhaps it is talking abotu spiritual blessings that God will no longer give to you? again not trying to brign this into a OSAS my only reason for this is to understand the meaning of this verse, thanks so much for your help, i appreciate it.

Josh

The best example I can give you is the one of Judas Iscariot. Obviously, while he was one of Jesus' disciples he healed many of infirmities, cast out devils and did everything the other disciples did. However, when he betrayed Jesus he lost his salvation and the devil entered him. It is just too easy to think that we are saved once and stay that way no matter what we do. I believe it was Paul who told us to guard our salvation with trembling and fear, lest it be taken away. Jesus wants us to be saved and when we are, the Holy Ghost will help us in keeping it, but it can be lost, that is a Biblical fact!!!!!

what do you think of bi-racial people?

That they are children of God just like the rest of us. Why what do you think of them?

For me, Jesus' proclamation was enough.

When He said that the Father is the ONLY true God... that's very much enough.

Lord Jesus, the Son, precisely is not the Father...

The Father is the ONLY true God (according to Jesus Himself)...

Therefore, the Son (nor the holy spirit), is definitely not the TRUE God.

The statement of Jesus not being the Father is not all together true. Jesus specifically said that "the Father and I are one" and "if you have seen me, you have seen the Father". Jesus was both fully man and fully devine. He was God manifested in flesh. (I Timothy 3:16) He was not God the Son, He was the Son of God in His humanity and He was God the Father in His divinity.

Everyone hates me. no one likes me. life is too hard. I cant deal. i dont like myself. i am angry and bitter and i frown a lot and its too much and i wanna be someone else! what do i do? whats wrong with me? what am i doing wrong? I hate people. I hate everyone. why does everyone hate me.

Are you a young person? When I was in high school, I felt these same feelings that you are feeling now. Just learn to live with them for a while and things will change. Life can be hard and difficult and mean, but eventually things will get better. Just hang on!

God is indeed one God. In Hebrew, there are two expressions for oneness, Yachid and Echad

(I forget which is which) One means "one unique and individual" the other is "one in unity"

God describes himself as "one in unity" which, in his triune nature is the correct term to use. If he was not triune, then the other expression would be used.

Moving onto to "defense" of the trinitarian standpoint:

There are so many places in scripture to go with this, so I guess the beginning is as good as any:

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

I'm sure in your previous discussions on trinity you've run into this verse and probably many others that will come up, but I'll assume for the sake of discussion that you haven't

God refers to himself as "us". This has been written off by some protagonists as a "royal 'we'" but there is no such concept in the original hebrew and I believe the concept did not exist anywhere at the time of writing. Indeed when the original hebrew is translated to its very root, the expression for God "elohim" is translated "the powers". Note that this is also a plural in nature as aversed to "the power" or "the great power"

secondly, who is God addressing? He speaks, but there is no mention of angels around him as he speaks and indeed, if he WAS addressing angels, then by the what he says, we would be as angels and we are not as angels.

The statement is a conversation between God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, this is further held out by the fact that we have the physical presence of Yeshua, a spiritual nature as that of the Holy Spirit, and a representation of the characteristics of God the Father, his abilty to emote (love, anger, compassion, jealousy etc...)

Theres still plenty more to go at, but I feel thats enough to discuss for the moment. When we're ready to move to the next point, I wouldnt mind exploring the person of "Dabar Yahweh" ("The Word of God") particularly in reference to Genesis 15:1-3

The plural as I have been told was used at the time of these writings and the Jewish people used them to show how great God really was. Anyway, right after God supposedly talked things over with a thought in his mind (Jesus or Logos) and a spirit. In the next verse what does God do? So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. This to me seems like an opportune time to make it known at creation that they created man in their own image. I know that you all say that God is three persons in One God, but the tie-ins to polytheism are just too great for me to fathom. I was shown this truth not to long ago and it has become somewhat of a mission to help others see where true trinitarianism leads to.

So far so good brothers and sisters. I like all the comments and I really like that everyone in here is polite. I realize that eventually it could get messy, but I hope this just to be a discussion of two different viewpoints. Here is the first point that I will bring up:

I saw someone using the verse from Deuteronomy 6:4. As we all know, the Jewish people are God's chosen ones. And isn't funny that this verse is the most distinctive and important statement of faith for the Jews. So much so that many a devout Jew would make this confession of faith just before their death. Now we must remember that the Jewish religion believes in a monotheistic God and this is a major reason for the Jewish rejection of Christianity throughout history (trinitarianism).

Someone also commented that all three were present at the creation, yet in Isaiah 44:24 God said, "I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself". Twice in one verse God says that He alone was the creator. So when the Bible says that Jesus created the world, to me that says that He is God because "God is one." (Galatians 3:20)

That is all the time I have for this session, keep up the good work all of you. I know that some of you are just as intrigued by this subject as I am, but let's not forget that our true calling from Jesus is to love one another!

God bless you all brothers and sisters in Christ!

Three words: The Athanasian Creed.

I appreciate what you said but I don't want any of the man-made doctrines to get in the way here. Just Scripture! The creeds are subject to a group of mens interpretations as are some scriptures in the Bible. Still the last thing I want to put my faith in doctrinally is something that was man-made hundreds of years after Jesus and the disciples were around. God bless!

I would like to start my membership in this forum by seeing what the trinitarians here believe. It has been my observation that many have different ideas as to this doctrine. Let us try to only deal with the scriptures in this discussion and see what holds weight. I believe the "Oneness" of God is evident throughout the Bible and I believe I can show where if given the right questions. So let's see where this goes shall we?

re: Is belief in the Trinity essential to one's Salvation?

Snow

No, in fact to get it right, I believe you have to see the trinity for what it is: A man-made doctrine that was not endorsed or taught by the disciples of Jesus. There are many views to the trinity and it is very confusing for most to talk about because it is not scripturally based. God has shown through His Word that He is one. (Galatians 3:20) He never says 3 in 1. This is as simple as it gets:

God is the Father of creation. God manifested Himself in flesh. (I Timothy 3:16) The Holy Spirit is God in us. Never does God have to be one or the other. They are all manifestations or roles of the one true God. Remember too, that there is only one God, and one mediator between GOD and man, the man Jesus Christ. When you start to show three "persons" in the Godhead, you eventually will lead to polytheism. Most of the scriptures used by trinitarians actually lead to binitarianism with the Holy Ghost being a sub-member of the three.