Brad

Yod the good news is that we see Christ everytime we see a Brother or Sister in the Lord. Peace

Preterism some will hear and some will not. They seem be believe all preterist are nuts. Sometimes we have to show them we are not. Edwards was highly influential in the Baptist life of America. He was the first historian of Baptists in America. Albert Henry Newman

Well I've been awake and still waiting for some good answers not smokescreens.

Eric it would be fair then to say that we both agree that this city spiritually called Sodon and Egypt was or is Jerusalem. So then please tell me is it Jerusalem before 70 AD or Jerusalem after 1948? And does Rev.11:7,8 happen in the future or has it been fulfilled before 70AD? If Ronald is right that the book of Revelations was written after Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD then Rev.11:7,8 must be speaking of Jerusalem after 1948 because Jerusalem would have been destroyed by the time John wrote Revelations. It is funny that John never mentioned Jerusalem being destroyed Hummmmm. Revelations 11 The Witnesses Killed 7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. 8And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. Can anyone answer these questions or not. Seeing that no one can answer my questions that are above, here is another question for you. According to this text of scripture in Matt.26:64 did Jesus tell Caiaphas the high priest that he and his followers would see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.

Not really...it could have been 20-25 years in the past by then.... John did mention measuring the size of a Temple that didn't correspond to anything in Jerusalem And, what need would there have been to have mentioned it? If it is set in a futuristic setting, as all here except for Brad will agree, it would be quite obvious that in some point at time it would be rebuilt. Obviously we are talking a modern era Jerusalem here. Of course, I suppose a great majority of all scholars are wrong in their date setting of this book and the minority preterist movement alone is right. If this be the case Ronald would you agree that John called this so-called modern day Jerusalem Sodom and Egypt. If so why would God have shown this to John that this so-called modern day Jerusalem is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt. Is this not the Great City where Jesus is to reign on the thrown of David forever? You see this is where the futuristic view leads us to believe. I remain a Preterist because I believe that Jerusalem has paid dearly for shed blood from Abel to all the Prophets killed, Jesus and the first century saints before 70 AD. Rev.11:7,8 does not apply to Jerusalem today as the futuristic view leads many to believe. How sad that those hold to a futuristic view who love Jerusalem today. unknowingly call it Sodom and Egypt.

Eric it would be fair then to say that we both agree that this city spiritually called Sodon and Egypt was or is Jerusalem. So then please tell me is it Jerusalem before 70 AD or Jerusalem after 1948? And does Rev.11:7,8 happen in the future or has it been fulfilled before 70AD? If Ronald is right that the book of Revelations was written after Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD then Rev.11:7,8 must be speaking of Jerusalem after 1948 because Jerusalem would have been destroyed by the time John wrote Revelations. It is funny that John never mentioned Jerusalem being destroyed Hummmmm. Revelations 11 The Witnesses Killed 7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. 8And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. Can anyone answer these questions or not.

Eric it would be fair then to say that we both agree that this city spiritually called Sodom and Egypt was or is Jerusalem. So then please tell me is it Jerusalem before 70 AD or Jerusalem after 1948? And does Rev.11:7,8 happen in the future or has it been fulfilled before 70AD? If Ronald is right that the book of Revelations was written after Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD then Rev.11:7,8 must be speaking of Jerusalem after 1948 because Jerusalem would have been destroyed by the time John wrote Revelations. It is funny that John never mentioned Jerusalem being destroyed Hummmmm. Revelations 11 The Witnesses Killed 7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. 8And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

I know it was out side of the gates, but what great city is Rev. 11:8 speaking of? I want to know what city you think it is so that we can speak of the same place.

If you are speaking of the Babylon of the book of Revelation chapter 17, it reads to me as being destroyed perminately and never recovering. Jerusalem was destroyed but has been rebuilt and the babylon of Revelation will never be enhabited again, and thus to me could not be Jerusalem. Sam Other One I have a question for you. What city is this text of scripture referring to? Revelations 11 The Witnesses Killed 7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. 8And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Yes Eric I believe Revelations to be fulfilled but before you ask me any questions I have one for you. According to this text of scripture in Matt.26:64 did Jesus tell Caiaphas the high priest that he and his followers would see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.

The point is that you have to spiritualize scripture in a way that neither Jesus nor the Apostles did to reach that conclusion. There are just too many things which are still yet to come. Huh? If anything, the church of today is ignorant of scripture and thinks that revelation by the Holy Spirit trumps the Word of God. Example; the way the Torah is relegated to being "void" though the scriptures never say this. Duh? that is a big "if" which I must disagree with. This would be a more accurate statement; "if" there are yet prophetic passages to be fulfilled (as I believe there are) then it is impossible that all things were fulfilled in 70 AD Then why is America the only nation which could be called "christian" in the world? On top of that...why isn't America truly a "christian" nation? Scriptures talk about the Great Apostasy in the end of days. I think this world is best described as being in an apostate condition than a church triumphant. This one fact alone should be enough to show you that preterism can NOT be true. But there are many other factors to consider as well that would disprove preterism without even opening the pages of the prophets. How can anyone think this is heaven? It just boggles the mind..... Yod if you are in Christ, Christ is in heaven and you are there in Him. Understand it in the spirit not the flesh and have the mind of Christ, not a carnal mind.

Yes, Brad, you are right. Eric, Yod, and myself prefer our information straight from the Holy Writ and not what some man interpreted it to be. This is just a cheap shot Ronald. I can turn this around and point it right back at you by saying that the information I get is straight from the Holy Writ and not what some man interpreted it to be. What does that prove, nothing. Same from what you just wrote.

Yod I have no problem with someone foretelling the future, but when it comes to interpeting scripture I believe all scripture has been fulfilled. We as the Church have chained God's word to scripture only. Now if all scripture has been fulfilled as of 70 AD then anything else prophesied as far as something else to happen would not be accepted. However if it's from God it will happen reguardless. The only thing I can see being prophesied would be according to the Kingdom of God increasing and nations being smitten with the rod of iron who rebel against God's authority. Isaiah 44:7 Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and lay out before me what has happened since I established my ancient people, and what is yet to come- yes, let him foretell what will come.

Good point Eric, also think about Satan, who is a spirit, is said to be in the Lake of Fire, being "tormented day and night forever and ever" (Rev. 20:10). We should not suppose that his "spiritual" torment is less severe than any "physical" torment. The word "hell" does not always refer strictly to the "afterlife" state. Often times it has application to the judgment of people on Earth. For instance, in Matt. 11:23; Lk. 10:15, Jesus said of the city of Capernaum, "You

I don't know if it rises quite to the level of heresy....he's just severely mistaken. I have had quite a few disagreements with Brad...but c'mon...there is no need to get ugly. He has always been a friend to me. And he is "tolerated" because he is a sincere brother who is still growing. I don't think anyone's life has been adversely effected by his musings yet. Yod Nobody is getting ugly here. Noble for you to come to a friend's defence, but I find his posts as near as you can get to being heresy as it is possible to get You say no one's life has been adversely affected by his musings yet, well possibly not for those that know their bible, but what about the new christians who are struggling to come to grips with what the bible is truly saying. Take a look at the number on the visitor's list and you'll see what I mean. I dont wish to fall out with a brother, yod, and if you say he's still growing he should be encouraged to grow in the right direction, I should think anyway. but there seems to be no stopping him. in brotherly love, eric. Tell you what Eric just for our sake I'll try not to post on any tread unless the topic starter is myself. That way you can warn all the young Christians not to read my postings that you call heresy and I will not even know. All I can say it that if what I say can not be proved to be false through scripture and not just accusations and other views then it must be true. Heck I'm not claiming to have all the truth, I'm still learning. It just happens to be from another source then from where you are getting your information.

What is your idea of a literial day. If you think that the first four days had 24 hours in them then you could be mistaken.

I have a question for anyone who is a futurist. Did Jesus say that Caiaphas the high priest and his followers would see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." Or not. And if so then how if they were all going to be dead 2,000 years later and every eye is to see this event. Jesus Faces the Sanhedrin Matt. 26 57 And those who had laid hold of Jesus led Him away to Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders were assembled. 64Jesus said to him, "It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."

I don't know if it rises quite to the level of heresy....he's just severely mistaken. I have had quite a few disagreements with Brad...but c'mon...there is no need to get ugly. He has always been a friend to me. And he is "tolerated" because he is a sincere brother who is still growing. I don't think anyone's life has been adversely effected by his musings yet. BTW Yod thanks for what you said. I know that we can now talk without wanting to burning each other at the stake. Yod did you read my posting on Is Preterism Anti-semitic ? If so what do you think about what futurist indirectly call Jerusalem today.

Eric I only post from others when I can't do a better job on the topic posted. If I were to post like you did concerning me I would have the to fight off many coming to their defends.

And that quite easily in one statement alone debunks preterism. If this is Heaven, we're all in one big huge amount of trouble because God lied! Well, the Bible says He doesn't lie, so this must not be Heaven after all!!! I would sure hate to think I had to share Heaven with the likes of Bin Laden, Bill Clinton, Saddam Hussein, Marilyn Manson, John Kerry, Ted Kennedy, and other anti-Christian folks. Sounds more like we're living elsewhere? Now Ronald you have taken this way far out of Preterism. Life for those who hate Christ is hell on earth. The New Covenant or Heaven is only for those who know Jesus. You might say that we share the same planet but the two are in a different spiritual dimention.

Hi Yod, I heard it said that he had partial preterist beliefs. Partial Pret's believe that the second coming is still in the future, but believe in 70 AD as a fulfillmeny of the AoD. I personal do not know much about the man only by name. I believed he lived before the 1830's when the pre trib. view came into the seen. The new earth is just the life we now live in because of the New Covenant. The old earth was when Jerusalem still had their temple with the OC system still active until 70 AD.

Is Preterism Anti-semitic ? This was taken from: http://www.strato.net/~dagreen/questionsan...ers2.html#note1 QUESTION 11: Can you possibly deny that preterism is anti-semitic? ANSWER: I cannot deny that there are some modern-day "Jew"-haters who use preterism to teach that all "Jews" since A. D. 70 are under a special curse of God and that therefore people like Hitler aren't such bad guys after all. However, that teaching is an abominable perversion of preterist doctrine and those who spread it should be avoided by everyone. Yes, I can deny that preterism is anti-semitic. As surprising as it may seem, it is actually consistent futurism that logically fosters "Jew"-hatred. Here are some verses that show this to be true: And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the Great City which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. (Rev. 11:8) This verse designates Jerusalem as "Sodom and Egypt" because it was in Jerusalem that the Lord Jesus was crucified. If we are to say this verse refers to a time in our future and is not yet fulfilled, then we must also say that Jerusalem remains the spiritual "Sodom and Egypt" to this very day because of its Messianic blood-guilt, and that it must remain so indicted until the Judgment of Rev. 11:13-19 is fulfilled sometime in our future. This conclusion is inescapable if the passage has yet to be fulfilled. And if Rev. 11:13-19 is yet unfulfilled, this logically implies that Paul's indictment against Jews must also remain intact to this very day, specifically, that "the Jews [who "killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets"] ...are ...hostile to all men" and that "they always fill up the measure of their sins." (I Thess. 2:14-16) Consistent futurism logically produces a very dangerous ambiguity and ambivalence toward modern-day "Jews" in that, on the one hand, they are in some sense "God's chosen people," while on the other hand they remain a blood-guilty race of enemies (Rom. 11:28) who are opposed to all men, and whose metropolis is "Egypt" and "Sodom" until Revelation 11 is fulfilled. This is the hateful fruit of consistent futurism. In the preterist doctrine, in contrast, Jerusalem was "given to the nations" by God in the late 60's, A.D., and the Great City was then trampled under foot until it was destroyed in A. D. 70. In those terrible "days of vengeance," the wrath of God against the Jews came to the utmost (I Thess. 2:16; Heb. 10:26-31) and they paid the price for their Messianic blood-guilt to the last penny (Lk. 12:54-59). After that day, the blood-descendants of Abraham became --covenantally speaking-- simply one of the many ethnic classes in the family of man (Eph. 3:15). There is not one ethnic group (or "race") of men today that is in any sense rejected by God or favored by God over others, but all are freely accepted in Christ and are made One through faith in Him. How many lives would have been saved if this preterist view of Israel in Bible prophecy had been taught instead of consistent futurism? Probably millions. QUESTION 98: Do you believe in "replacement theology?" Was Israel replaced by the Church? Since the Jews are no longer God's chosen people, does that indicate that Jews are an accursed race because of what they did to Christ? ANSWER: Abraham's descendants were not cut off and "replaced" by a gentile church. The Jews never became an accursed race. Yes, there was a wicked and perverse generation of accursed Jews in the Last Days. (Matt. 25:41; Mk. 11:21; Gal. 3:10) And yes, after A.D. 70 Abraham's descendants were no longer in any sense uniquely God's chosen people. But those facts in no way indicate that the Abrahamic blood-line became accursed. Israel was hardened "in part" in the Last Days. (Rom. 11:25) It was through the world-changing, Last-Days work of the Holy Spirit that the "firstfruit" remnant of Israel was saved, (Rom. 11:5,16) and that "the fulness of the gentiles" was brought into Israel, (Rom. 11:25) and that the pre-Cross saints ("the dead" / "all Israel") were resurrected. (Rom. 11:15,26,28) All were gathered together at the Parousia of Christ and united into one eternal, spiritual, resurrected Body. (Rom. 11:26) In the ages before the Advent of the Son, God's people were not only separated from Him (as the animal sacrifices testified) and separated from each other (the divided kingdoms of Israel and Judah) and separated from the unclean, gentile world, but wars with each other and wars with gentiles, and ultimately Death itself, separated every son of the kingdom from the worship of the Father. Through the power of the Cross of Christ, those "old things" of "tears," "death," "sorrow," "outcry" and "pain" passed away in the end of the age. (Rev. 21:4) In His Parousia, the historic kingdom was transformed. It was changed from having been a worldly, hand-made kingdom that embodied Condemnation (separation), Sin and Death (Heb. 9:1,11,24), to being the God-made Kingdom "from out of Heaven" (II Cor. 5:2; Rev. 21:2,10) in which all the elect, the living and the dead, Jew and gentile, were united and made alive in Christ, never again to be separated from God or from each other. Now all the saints are granted free and equal access to the throne of grace, through faith in the Son. (Heb. 7:12) Now all the saints are "priests of God." (I Peter 2:5,9; Rev. 1:6; 5:10) Now all the saints worship Him "face to Face." (I Cor. 13:12; Rev. 22:4) Now all the saints are One in Christ. (Jn. 17:11-23; I Thess. 5:10) The Church, which Israel's Messiah bought with His own blood, was not the replacement or condemnation of biblical Israel. (Jn. 3:17) It was its fulfillment. Christ's Kingdom today is the full and perfect realization of the hope and goal of Old-Testament Israel. Preterism is not anti-semetic. Everything we have today is because of the fulfillment of the promises made to the Jewich Father's. Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers. (Rom 15:8) The prediction of Judgment unto (Biblical Israel) was for THAT generation. That generation of opposers of Christ had said, "His blood be on us, and on our children." (Matthew 27:25) And it was. That judgment came about in A.D-70 and the nation was decimated. Some say that the Jews today are guilty of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. This is not a preterist view of things manly because we don't see the Jews today as the race of Biblical Israel. They are no more guilty of the crucifixion of Jesus then the Gentiles who reject Him now. Biblical Israel the nation that was officially guilty of the death of Christ received its judgment. God's judgment is not uopn Jews today because of what other did many years ago. Preterist Christians love the people of Israel and have a burden to see all Jews, whether Sephardim or Ashkenazim, come to know their King also. Galatians 3:16 teaches us that, "to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." The promise was given to Abraham and his seed, who is Christ Jesus. Acts 13:23 tells us that, "Of this man's (David's) seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour." So, therefore, the promise referred to was that the Saviour would be raised to redeem to his people from their sins. It was faith in the coming Messiah, Jesus Christ, that brought a good report to the people. Everything we have today is because of the promises to the Jewish Father's. There are more Questions about Preterism @ http://www.strato.net/~dagreen/questionsan...ers2.html#note1

Hello "small thin nail"! Nah...my name is Ted which means "Gift of God" I go by Hidden Manna on other forums but Brad is my real name.