David from New Bern

There is a progression in these verses. I am not suggesting a works relgion but a work ethic. I am not sure if that is well expressed, but Peter puts a responsibility on the person of faith... "Add to"...and Paul said, ...Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; Philippians 2:12 NKJV...When we talk about fundamentals we often sell grace, but shouldn't it be fundamental to say now that you are saved....."Add to"

I have no problem having a ready answer, I am suggesting that we read and evaluate the hunger of the inquirer rather than a full exposition of every Biblical curiosity an unbeliever might have.

I understand the emotion, but I'm not sure I would express it that way. Remember, Paul was killing Christians on his way to Damascus when he had an encounter with the Lord. The Son of Sam has committed heinious crimes and now shows the love of Christ by many people's testimony. Ted Bundy was the most vilest of sinners, but James Dobson said he was a changed man when he met him on death row. We have to be careful how we respond. Verbage is very important. Exactly the point. I was being ironic. However...God does hate. You are right Ovedya...God does hate and a lot of people can't handle that, but I would let Him communicate that according to His sovereignty and timing. You said it and I thought it, my righteous indignation kicked in quick, but then I have to make sure I am not assuming what God is doing. It is sorta like the Holacaust, unspeakable cruelty but it collected the Jews once again from the diaspora for what God is about to do next. The real issue with Phelps and his ilk is that he also assumes that he knows what God is doing. In his condemnation of others he is taking the position of God's authority. God's throne is only reserved for one Person: God. While I do not believe that it is wrong for believers to say, "This thing is hated by God" it is most definately wrong to say, "This person is hated by God," unless, of course, God Himself has said so in his word. We are in absolute agreement

Is there anything fundamental about surrender? Is there any requirement other than open ended belief? Surrender comes as a natural consequence of first having received God's salvation and living according to the divine life int eh new creation. Faith in jesus Christ is not open-ended at all. What does this add to our discussion? Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 2 Peter 1:2-9 NKJV

Sometimes I am simply too analytical...and I may be in danger of being just that here on this post. But as a general rule in the past, I will not engage an unbeliever in what feels like a debate that is hopeless because they are spiritually blind. I just answer questions with questions. I believe Jesus often used frustration as a teaching method. He didn't give all the answers and never argued you might have notice as I have. When they begin grappling with my questions that I keep offering, they then begin asking me for the answers, but even then I will not take them beyond the depravity of man and the sufficency of Christ until we find agreement on that alone. My experience is they want to argue about things that are critical of the church or preachers, etc... And we end up talking about things that they have no grasp of anyway or that were simply decoys to feel better about themselves but put the church down. Do you agree with my approach or can you help me see it different?

Is there anything fundamental about surrender? Is there any requirement other than open ended belief?

Keep digging , you are on to something! You will find the purpose of trials and tribulations

I understand the emotion, but I'm not sure I would express it that way. Remember, Paul was killing Christians on his way to Damascus when he had an encounter with the Lord. The Son of Sam has committed heinious crimes and now shows the love of Christ by many people's testimony. Ted Bundy was the most vilest of sinners, but James Dobson said he was a changed man when he met him on death row. We have to be careful how we respond. Verbage is very important. Exactly the point. I was being ironic. However...God does hate. You are right Ovedya...God does hate and a lot of people can't handle that, but I would let Him communicate that according to His sovereignty and timing. You said it and I thought it, my righteous indignation kicked in quick, but then I have to make sure I am not assuming what God is doing. It is sorta like the Holacaust, unspeakable cruelty but it collected the Jews once again from the diaspora for what God is about to do next.

I understand the emotion, but I'm not sure I would express it that way. Remember, Paul was killing Christians on his way to Damascus when he had an encounter with the Lord. The Son of Sam has committed heinious crimes and now shows the love of Christ by many people's testimony. Ted Bundy was the most vilest of sinners, but James Dobson said he was a changed man when he met him on death row. We have to be careful how we respond. Verbage is very important.

Hey I like it...I think even Simon Cowell would like it, even though he wouldn't get the lyrics. Back in the late 80's and early 90's I did a contemporary gospel radio show, back before the digital age was in full swing, and I would have given it air play. I particularly like the 1rst and last cut. When you have got a project for sale let me know I would like to purchase it. God Bless...keep rockin for the Lord

ouch.. nice David Well.. now that the "Easter hype is over"... dont let that "hype" drop.. keep serving the Lord and being excited about him dying on teh cross Look its Sam, may I help you?

Someone needs to denounce this...If they are a part of any Baptist fellowship or governing body, someone needs to denounce this publicly? This body needs to be disciplined. This is the kind of stuff that Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson needs to be talking about on their public platforms.

I am in agreement with the SOF, but having read it do we consider these to be absolute fundamentals? Example: If a person believes in soul sleep, that is in conflict with your statement, but is it necessary to believe our common belief in order to be orthodox. Many denominations believe that perfect sanctification is possible this side of the grave, and again that is in conflict with what you and I believe. I absolutely believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, but I know many who don't but who otherwise hold to same moral values and desires to see Christ in heaven. Again I like this SOF, I would sign off on it, but is it the fundamental (required) beliefs?

Walmart brings back out the Christmas stuff and puts it out by the grills...

As a Christian communicator. should I go see the Davinci Code in order to comment intelligently, or would it send a wrong signal to those who see me in the Theatre? Please advise...

If you haven't noticed yet, you can get into tangle quick with fellow Christians about some things that you consider to be pretty elementary to the faith. You will be surprised to find that they have a different take on the subject or simply don't believe what you believe. You can't help but believe they might not be a Christian. But then again, you are told you can't judge someone that way. In fact on this forum there will be someone that will jump to their defense. So my question would be, is there a consensus on this site as to what the core beliefs that can't be weakened or tampered with and still be orthodox?

Apothanien Kerdos...Your answers are always well thought out...I mean nothing to devaluate anyone worth...A wasted life is one that failed to have the impact it could have had...but because opportunities were not used they were lost...So, wasted probably comes in varying degrees. I probably wasted some of my life last week. To have taken advantage of none of the opportunities afforded me last week would have been a complete waste. The step aside from our focus on Mother Teresa for just a moment...Most Christian waste their life because they don't see their position in life as an assignment for the cause of Christ. If I am a nurse God has put me in the place to be a Christian witness in that environment. If I am have the good fortune to retire in reasonable health he has given me the luxury, the freedom to spend the rest of my days in ministry or I waste it. I am not using "waste" as a personal value label but an accountability grade. On a personal note, I would like to find out more about you. You intrigue me with some of your answers...in a good way I still admire your mind...Somehow I could tell you were a debate coach (that is not a negative comment). However, I believe you are focusing on a minor issue of semantics. You don't like the word "waste" because it seems too personal you would prefer "incomplete". Now all I have to do is introduce another logical progression and introduce the word "disobedient." I am not so extreme to believe that I'm suppose to be spending all my waking hours proclaiming. I realize ministry to my family is just that a God called assignment of perhaps of greater significance. But even in my relationship with my family I am there to impact them for Christ. Doing that is not always preaching or even teaching them. It may be just displaying a Christian attitude toward life. While I'm not any longer in secular employment, when I was I was able to balance doing a good job as a restaurant manager but letting my faith be known by witnessing and displaying. That reminds me of a personal illustration. 12 years ago I was in seminary, an interim pastor on the weekends, and a full-time restaurant manager at a fast food chain. I was praying to God asking Him just how long was He going to ask me to carry this load. I was asking Him to put me in a full-time pastorate. I was praying about this matter very passionately. I was asking God, "What was He trying to accomplish by putting me through these hard hours and demands, it was nearly impossible." I felt like He who drew my mind and thoughts toward my restaurant job and reminded me that I was begging for an opportunity to be in serious ministry and I was leading a staff of 40 already. In that makeup of people I had influence over at least 12 single mothers, people with relationship problems and financial issues. I had wasted a lot time where God had already put me. So I went to work impacting people as far as I could go within professional limitations. Friend, God began to work and I stopped hating my job and within 6 months God moved me on to my first pastorate. "incomplete," if that is the word you prefer. There is a whole lot tied up in the words of Christ on the cross when He said "It is finished". In the original language teleo two meaning come forth, "satisfied or paid in full" but also the idea pf a servant returning to report to His master "job completed, noting more to be done." Jesus did not waste His life, Paul did not waste even his prison time. For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.1 Corinthians 2:2 NKJV Paul here was not talking about keeping his gospel presentations real simple, he was talking about becomng a man of single passion. He considered all else rubbish (that's waste isn't it?). Thank you for the compliments. If you want to know more about me, feel free to PM me with questions. Lately I've had a hard time responding to PM's because I've been busy, but if it's just answering questions I should have some time. As for what you said, I'm going to ask you to look at things in a different light. First, I'm going to disagree with what "waste" is. A wasted life, Biblically, is one that does submit to God in every area. For instance, if submission to God is spreading the Gospel solely, then anytime we brush our teeth, spend time with family, relax, etc., we are failing. Things that are almost essential in life become wasteful and thus turn us into failures. This, of course, cannot be true. Thus, waste should be defined as, "Anytime we live in rebellion towards God and forsake our moral duties as Christians and humans." This means that if I'm at a baseball game for my sun and skipping out on an evangelism rally, I am not a failure, I am merely fufilling my obligation as a good father. It means that if I do an ethical job at my work and refuse to do unethical things (like shred legal documents) but don't witness to them in the process, I am not a failure but instead a vast success. It also means that if I forsake my family in order to fufill my position as a missionary, or as a pastor, or just to witness to people, I am a failure because I'm only focusing on one aspect of who I am called to be. My justification for this is that if sucess is based solely off who we witness to in whatever situation we're in, we can never achieve it. Secondly, continuing with the nurse analogy...if I am a nurse and witness to people, but do a poor job in my vocation, then I have still failed God. I can tell all the people about Christ, but if my actions are inconsistent with what I am saying, it does no good. In fact, the entire book of James is about this fact alone. Specifically in the first two chapters, James goes in and explains that our actions must match up with our faith or else our words are meaningless. This means at work that I must do the best job I can and when I can, give audible glory to Christ for it. Witnessing, while important, is not the only measure of success. I am not attempting to downplay witnessing. I work in a public school with special education kids and I'm also a debate/forensics coach. 99% of the time I'm either helping kids learn how to read, pay attention, use their motor skills, teaching debate, helping them with cases, or doing other things related to my job. I do not preach, I do not witness on the fly, I don't tout my faith around verbally. This does not make me a failure. I put my everything in to what I do there, and this has caused some great chain reactions. The sped ed kids I work with have excelled to the point that I am getting a 100% on my reviews (something that is hard to do under the 105 things in a list of what to look for)...but the kids are becomming more and more independent so they don't have to have someone help them their entire lives. As for the debate/forensics squad, it was the laughing stock of the entire state until this year. Now this year we've qualified 8 different kids to four different national tournaments are are currently number 2 in our district...and the district is ranked 4th in the nation. I give glory to God on that, but a lot of that is me giving my all for Christ. Now, when kids come up to me with personal issues, I give them advice through a Christian worldview, and thus I am witnessing at that point. However, it is not my main focus. Does this make me a failure or my life a waste? Of course not. I am fulfilling two passages of scripture in both Corinthians and Colossians where Paul tells us to do everything unto the glory of God. This does not mean witness in everything, it means work our hardest in everything. Thus, if we do a good job at what we're called to but don't necessarily go out of our way to verbally witness, we are not failures. Third, your retirement. If God calls you to deal with pastoral ministry in some way whilst retired, that is wonderful. At the same time, if you chose to actually rest and enjoy the rest of your days with your family or traveling and enjoying creation, that wouldn't make you a failure at all. Ministry is not just confined to those who preach in the pulpit or witness on the streets. I have two books that I really want you to read. Being a Hebrew Christian I found these two books on sale and not at retail price (little joke there). "Heaven is a Place on Earth: Why Everything You do Matters to God. by Michael Wittmer and "The Call: Finding and Fufilling God's Central Purpose in Your Life by Os Guinness. I think these two books would help to shift your worldview. As for the original question, when people do good works but do not share the Gospel, this doesn't mean it is a waste; it means it is incomplete. If I help a poor person but do not share, I have still aided that person, fufilled the passage of Matthew 25, have pleased God because I have shown justice to the poor, but inevitably I have done an incomplete job in that without Christ, he won't be able to be completely fixed. This does not make what I did a waste, just an incomplete action. Does this make sense? If I were to preach to the poor man but not help his physical problem and ignored it, it woudl likewise be incomplete.

Apothanien Kerdos...Your answers are always well thought out...I mean nothing to devaluate anyone worth...A wasted life is one that failed to have the impact it could have had...but because opportunities were not used they were lost...So, wasted probably comes in varying degrees. I probably wasted some of my life last week. To have taken advantage of none of the opportunities afforded me last week would have been a complete waste. The step aside from our focus on Mother Teresa for just a moment...Most Christian waste their life because they don't see their position in life as an assignment for the cause of Christ. If I am a nurse God has put me in the place to be a Christian witness in that environment. If I am have the good fortune to retire in reasonable health he has given me the luxury, the freedom to spend the rest of my days in ministry or I waste it. I am not using "waste" as a personal value label but an accountability grade. On a personal note, I would like to find out more about you. You intrigue me with some of your answers...in a good way

Meeting physical needs in Christ's name is a very crucial part of the truth of the gospel. In Colossians 1:15-16, Paul teaches us that through Christ everything was created. The things that are visible and the things that are invisible. While our physcial body is temporary, that does not make it less valuable to God. To elevate "spiritual" needs above "physical" needs is a form of gnosticism. Christ never insisted that we rise above our humanity, to some greater "spiritual" existence. He cared for the physical needs of people because He cares for humanity, the whole person...not just their "spirit". There are over 2300 Scriptures pertaining to the poor and needy. Social justice is clearly an important issue to God, and not just because He has an alterior motive. He genuinely cares about the entire being. Living the truth of the gospel is not just about getting souls saved. Of course we should share the reason for the hope that is within us (1 Peter 3:15), but quite often people don't care to know unless they know you care. Paul also teaches that it was God's kindness towards us that led us to repentance. If we do the acts that Jesus did (which was meeting spiritual needs AND physical needs), then we are living the gospel. How do you know that the people Mother Teresa touched weren't moved by her compassion and put their faith in Christ? How do you know that in their utter bewilderment over her kindness, that they didn't ask her why she cares? How do you know that she was silent and did not respond with the gospel of Christ as her reason why? First of all, you're assuming. Secondly, do you think any person dies without an opportunity to know God? Is God not Sovereign? Scripture clearly teaches 1) that any act of kindness or goodness is the direct result of God's doing and 2) those who have the ability to understand, and have seen creation are without excuse. God can save a soul without a word ever being spoken. You seem to imply that unless someone is going around praying "the sinner's prayer" with people that they are not fulfilling their calling, or that souls will be lost unnecessarily. This isn't so. It's not like Mother Teresa, or anyone for that matter, will destroy God's ultimate plan. Of course we can be hinderances, but more often than not, it's those who are sitting on their butts in pews (considering this their "worship") who are hinderances to advancing God's kingdom. Someone who is out LIVING their faith, showing compassion, sacrificing, suffering for others and caring for humanity is far less likely to be the one who needs to "move over". Usually the people in the way of ministry are the one's who speak the words of Christ fluently, but because they lack compassion and selflessness their words fall on deaf ears. Again, you're assuming. But even so, being sensitive to the culture you're ministering too isn't foolishness it's actually wise. You can't go into a country and offend them by disrepecting their heritage and culture and then expect to win them over to your point of view on anything...especially your religion. Certainly this doesn't mean we conform to their culture, but a great sensitivity is needed. Any missionary in any foreign culture understands this. Honestly, the reason I find this topic somewhat disturbing is there's a spirit of arrogance behind it. It's easy to point the finger at someone with a high profile and examine their life under a microscope, but how often are we as eager to probe our own thoughts and motives? How many of us have willing laid down even a few days of our lives in service to those who were desperate, much less willing to devote our entire lives to such? We sit in the comfort of our own homes, in a free country and scrutinize and analyze someone's life to see if it matches up to our standards. Did Mother Teresa ask each person she encountered if they knew Christ? I have no idea. But until I've attempted to live the gospel of Christ in honesty and truth (in word AND deed) then I have no room to be critical of her. All I have to look at are her deeds, and her deeds were good. If all you can say is "what if" she didn't do this and "what if" she didn't do that, you have nothing but speculation and vain imaginations to go on. If you aren't out in every hospital ICU preaching Christ to the dying in your area, why aren't you? Does this make your life a waste? It's troubling to me that in Western Christianity there's a bit of a sport in criticizing other believers or speculating about them. I'm going to quote Steve Stockman from his book "Walk On" where he addresses this issue. Of course, he's referring to the criticism associated with Bono, but it applies here too: Likewise, what kind of community seeks to demonize a woman who gave her life in service to others? When did it become un-Christlike to give up physical comfort, selfish ambition, personal convenience and devote your life in sacrifice to the needs of human beings? How far from being the Bride of Christ have we fallen when evangelical Christianity would rather speculate on the ministries of other Christians than live Christ and care for the dying? Cheap shots at someone like Mother Teresa (i.e. calling her life a waste) in order to "spark conversation" seems much more offensive. No one has dismissed the humanitarian value of Mother Teresa's work. I have not asked anyone to draw the conclusion that we are to make a gospel presentation as the prerequisite to a hot meal or a place to die with dignity as in Calcutta. The conversation reported and quoted should send out red flags and questions though. Is Mother Teresa aware that Hundus are headed to Hell? Her quoted response should concern us. Why, because quite frankly a lot of people prefer to believe this. If she feels no urgency to confront their spiritually dangerous state, is she not with good intentions making their last days on earth comfortable but sending them to an eternity of Hell with false hope? Would she not be damning them to hell by her ommission of basic Christian concern? Is what she doing a valuable way to prove your love for someone as a precursor to sharing the key to the Kingdom, yes. And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

Naahh, your post doesn't rattle me... I am not part of that group , as I have never held high profile folks like Mother Teresa and Princess Di and Reverand Graham or any number of "good people" any higher than my family members.. we are all just folks..some of us are in a position to just do some "really good things".. Rom 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. 8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. We certainly do know that she fullfilled the law... I understand your question is pointed at her and her alone..or is it the catholic church?? if she was teaching works...she was wrong .. If she never told those near death about Jesus, she was wrong. Did she understand the blood of Jesus?I certainly do not know.. I do not understand it personally but folks are still going to be defensive about "good people"... I remember the very day I realized it.. someone said something about Princess Di long before she had died and a friend just bristled with indignation that anyone say any thing less than wonderful about her.... that really surprised me and I started a prayer for that person that God would help them to see that we are all equal in Gods eyes....hopefully she has come to see that herself... If Princess Di had not died on the same day as Mother Teresa she would have recieved all that adoration instead of Di... ...I don't get it... Do you think your post is going to help someone see the truth?about Jesus being the only way to salvation? I have Catholic family members and they are Christians who understand that the only way to salvation is through the blood of Jesus and only through the blood of Jesus... I understand that some Catholics believe works get them there but there are other people from other denominations who feel the same way so I am not going to pick the Catholic Church as unchristian. Funny You should mention that Scripture (Matthew 7:21-23 NKJV) as it was the first thing that crossed my mind when I read your first post... Ok, David, I am outta here .....I hope that was not to rambly... but I am considering posting the question about the Missionaries on another section...I am curious... Thanks for participating in the conversation... Mother Teresa or the Catholic Church or Ecumenical Movements that supply soup kitchens and clothing ministries or whatever...There is no target here...Mother Teresa has become the poster child of the conversation merely because we or the Catholic Church have promoted her as the icon of superhuman acts of kindness and service.

Your first statement is not quite accurate as a simple search of the Concordance will show. Thomas only asks one question as far as I can tell: Jhn 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? Jesus did not rebuke him, but answered with perhaps the most profound statement in the Bible: "I am the way, and the truth, and the life" It is Thomas that shows blind faith in, and unwavering love of, Jesus when he says, " (Jhn 11:16) " Let us also go, that we may die with him." Thomas was the only Apostle that did not have the benefit of first hand knowledge of Jesus. They also only believed because they had seen. But it was Thomas who, seeing Jesus, immediately understood and responded, "My Lord, and my God!" Should he be admired for his insistance for first hand information? That's almost a non-question. Of course not. Jesus follows with , "Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed". Is he to be admired for sticking with Jesus even when he did not exactly understand Him? For simply trusting in His love? Most certainly yes! May the peace of the risen Christ be yours, David. Fiosh Fiosh...Thanks for your response the word "always" was an over sell of the question. I didn't mean to mislead. I was considering his unbelief after the resurrection to be a questioning attitude. Like your answer and thanks for helping me with my preciseness.

If I demand an answer or my faith is contingent on knowing the answer, or I get hung up in pointless trivia, then I agree. But asking questions such as this is how we learn and uncover many hidden truths and method of uncovering future interpretative challenges. "People who say God said it and that settles it for me" usually aren't Bible student and remain dependent on others to tell them what to believe. I believe in the authority of God's Word and I don't have to understand it all to submit to it. But, I'm going to keep asking questions here and in my personal pouring through the Scripture.

David, perhpas a better questin would have been... "Do Missionaries who are out in the field serving the most needy in the world tell those whom they help about the saving power Jesus? perhaps you could start a new thread.... if that is your question of course... Personally I do not understand watching someone on the verge of death go to hell and not to give them an opportunity to hear about Jesus... Paul said he would have rather perish than his brethern. Romans 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. 3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Some folks are offended when a "good person" is disparaged and will defend them. What do you think of this suggestion for your question? Should this have been a personal message?? No, the OP is what it is...If it rattles you or anyone else...we all need to be rattled to get us honest and to draw in ink instead of pencil all the time. There is no way to talk about anything of real substance without often dismantling some people's nice little world and not offending they way they prefer to see it. The non-catholic world holds Mother Teresa with great respect and see her as representative of Christian ideals. The Catholic church hold her in such high esteem that they fast tracked her to sainthood. Now, that is another whole thread of discussion. But, my point with this, it is completely fair to examine her theology or lack of theology being she is upheld by the majority of the population as the example of faith and good service. Let the record show that good benevolent people will be in Hell. High profile religious servants will be in Hell.

When the Biblical narrative mentions Thomas he is always asking question that no one else would ask. But, he is forever labeled as doubting Thomas because he wouldn't accept 2nd hand information. Is Thomas right for demanding firsthand revelation? Should he be admired for this insistance?

God does nothing without purpose, and even the smallest details have significance. Other than the fullfilment of prophecy, Why was Jesus in the grave for 3 days?