wykael

It's a tough question. I know I have heard quite a few testimonies of similar situations when people have seen either of the two destinations. Sometimes it scares them to faith. Sometimes it reaffirms faith. Sometimes they just blow it off. But the fact that the Lord sends them back sometimes indicates that perhaps life support isn't such a bad thing, depending on the circumstances. Personally I don't want to be on extended life support, and then return as a vegetable. How can I serve the Lord in that state?

I wholeheartedly agree with the statement that a Christian needs to be constantly striving to defeat sin. Not only the unintentional, but the intentional. As Paul stated, I continually do what I am not supposed to do, and don't do what I am supposed to do. If that doesn't describe willful sin, I don't know what does. But Paul is not saved then? Hardly. Being a Christian is striving to be Christ-like. But we are not Christ, and we will fail. That's not license to fail. But it is meant to give us hope, since we know we are human, and can pick ourselves up aftere yet another failure, and try again. "You don't drown by falling into the water. You drown by staying there." (not a Bible quote. Just a favorite of mine to remind myself that a failure doesn't make me a failure. What I don't agree with is Suzanne's apparent claim that she doesn't willfully sin. Sorry, but that's a load of crap. Come down out of the hot air balloon (as I have read elsewhere in this thread) and admit you are human. If you claim to be without sin, you are claiming to be like Christ, and you are not, except through the blood of Jesus. Thanks for all the judgement you have cast in this thread. Sorry we can't all be as "good" as you. But that doesn't make you any more "saved" than the rest of us. We don't look for permission to sin. But we do fail from time to time, and it's sure nice to know that through all my failures, I'm still a child of God. My kids disappoint me sometimes too. But I certainly don't turn my back on them because of it. Why? Because I am raising them in a home of Christian ideals, and that's how God parents. Nebula, what is meant by "watch and be ready" is exactly the point being made here. Personal failure in sin is forgiven. But that doesn't mean we are to just go out and sin because we're automatically forgiven. At the day of attonement, every child of God will be allowed into the place He has gone to prepare for us. But we also will have to account for our deeds here on Earth. Watch and be ready. Go and sin no more. Do your very best to follow the example Jesus has set out for us, and live up to the sacrifice He made for us. And when you fail (and we ALL do), turn to Christ. Ask for forgiveness. And try your best not to do it again, because in the end, you will be asked about it.

This is the point I was trying to make earlier. We all sin daily. So if this argument is going to hold any water, none of us would be raptured except those who had just been in the middle of a "forgive me" prayer and happened to be at the right point in the prayer. I agree. God does not say he distinguishes between levels of sin. That's a human concept. We're the ones who even grade how bad murder is. God just calls it murder. We have the ideas of purjury and little white lies. God just calls them lies. So if we are now taking it upon ourselves to determine which sins are acceptable for God to rapture us, and which sins are not going to be acceptable at the moment of rapture we are waking a dangerous path. That's for God to decide. And He doesn't make a distinction on the severity of sin. So either we are raptured even with our sin, or we are not. But Jesus came to cover our sin. Not to permit our sin, for those of you who seem to think we are looking for a reason for it to be okay to sin. But that we need to try to live without sin, and also not in fear that those sins we end up commiting because we are human will keep us out of the kingdom. Take this another way. Twist the quesion a little. Ok, so we are worried about what sin we might be commiting when the rature occurs. How about if you are driving down the highway, thinking a lustful thought about the new secretary who started - not about having sex with her. Just lustful thoughts about her appearance. WHAM! A semi plows into us and we are killed instantly. Will you be allowed into heaven? Or are you doomed, even though you pretty much did okay through the years. Or maybe it isn't a lustful thought. Maybe you "borrowed" a stapler from work that you plan to return the next day. Now you can't return it. That's stealing. Your employer didn't say it was okay to take it home with you, so it's stealing. Are you now sentenced to hell? Are one of you really pious enough and mighty enough to determine which sins God will forgive carte blanche and which sins he will reject us for? That's why Jesus came. To save us from our sinful nature. To repeat, this is not an argument that it is okay to sin. This is not saying we have free license. If you really love the Savior, you aren't looking for a free license. You are then looking for ways to please Him. So don't tell me I'm looking for a free pass. That isn't the point. My point is that you are either a child of God, or you aren't. God will rapture his children. From there, we will each have to reconcile our choices with Him.

Salvation has many "benefits" in this life and the next, besides the "insurance" it provides. But this thread is entitled "Sin."

Based on your arguements above, we're all doomed. That is, of course, unless you can convince me that you have not sinned since becoming a Christian. That you haven't told someone they looked good, when they really didn't (lying). That you mind never wandered to thoughts of another person besides your mate - even for a second. That you never reacted sharply and failed to show God's love when someone needed that most of all. That you never questioned why something happened in your life and wondered if God was really there and looking out for you. That you never said something negative about another person or spread gossip regarding the affairs of others. That sin has been completely absent in your life. Take it a step farther. Can you really claim that you have never willfully sinned since coming to Christ? Even on a seemingly small matter? If this is the case, then your argument that you have to take up your cross and be ready to carry it for all eternity or else...well it dooms us all. Jesus didn't say "follow me, but only if you're ready to be perfect." Jesus appealed to the weak and to those in some of the worst sin, and offered to save them. Are you honestly telling me that He didn't think these people would backslide? He provided grace for this just because we are human and not divine. Yes, we need to ask forgiveness. But His grace is granted because we believe, and choose to follow Him. Not because we "sin no more." His grace covers our sin. We need to ask for it, but we're not forgiven for the sin we committed 15 minutes ago because we ask for it. We're forgiven because we love Him.

Amen! Amen! Well stated! Exactly! One of the biggest problems in America today is the lack of accountability! Regardless of pitying him, or hoping he finds Christ, he still needs to be held accountable for what he did.

What I hear you saying here is "be careful if you are thinking of becoming a Christian. You have to drop everything if you're going to follow Christ, so make sure you are strong enough. If you're going to take up the cross and follow him, you better be prepared to carry it all the way." That's not the message Christ gave to us sinners. We are told to love Christ. If we love Him, we want to please him. We can please him with our hearts, our thoughts, and our actions. Are we going to please Him with everything we do? If we love Him, we will try to. But we will fail from time to time. If that failure caused us to no longer be one of His, then Peter would not have been raptured, had the rapture occurred at the time of the crucifixion. He denied Christ 3 times. But He loved Jesus. He was sorrowful for this. His heart was in the right place, and I believe He would not have been left behind, had the plan been for rapture at that moment. I'm sorry, but I just don't see that God is vengeful to His own people. Now someone who deliberately sins time after time, and either expresses no remorse or does a ritualistic "forgive me for having sinned" with no actual sorrow for his sin - now that's a different breed, isn't it. That person doesn't seem to actually have Christ in his heart. That person has self in his heart. And without Christ in your heart, you won't be raptured. But the way to eternal life is through believing. Not through lack of sin. Choosing not to sin is a by-product (almost) of loving the Lord. If your wife doesn't want you to leave the cap off the toothpaste, because you love her, you will try not to leave the cap off the toothpaste. When you fail and she happens to catch you, will she divorce you? Hopefully not, if she actually loves you. She may call your attention to it. You will feel remorse since you actually love her. And your relationship will move on with you trying not to leave the cap off the toothpaste. wykael

My experience seems to be similar but different compared with others in this thread. I grew up in a "good Christian" home. We went to church every week. In fact, for 2 years, my parents pastored a small church in a small town. When I got out on my own, I quit going. My arguement was that my relationship was with God. I didn't need all the rules of a church to tell me how to talk to my best friend and mentor (God). So I didn't go. I got married. I had kids. My wife decided we needed to baptize our 2nd child, so we needed to join a church (our first was baptized in a church we didn't belong to). We joined a local congregation. Nice church. Nice pastor. But we didn't go very often. In fact, we almost looked for reasons not to go. When I found my current congregation, I wasn't looking for a different church. We visited the church my Mom was attending. I guess we were lucky (eg. guided). We felt at home right away. There was no question we were where we belonged that morning. We basically haven't missed a Sunday in 2 years. Do I always enjoy every aspect of the service? No. Of course not. But overall, I leave each Sunday Noon feeling like I at least got something out of it, and maybe contributed a bit as well. I wouldn't expect that you will find a church in one Sunday like we did. Give them a fair shot. Give them 3 or 4 visits to see how they "feel" to your spirit. Try different denominations. Try independent churches. Try home churches. The important thing is to be with others who are like minded - other believers. Association is important. The world chips away at us every day. We do need that recharge of people who believe as we do. When you are where God wants to use you (or feed you), you'll know it. But persistence pays off. You might not know right away like we did. Keep seeking Him. Keep seeking His will. He'll help you find your place. The only criteria I would suggest is to make sure what you hear from the stage/pulpit is not popularized Christianity. God hasn't changed his mind on issues in the world, just because His original opinion isn't politically correct. Congregations shouldn't either. Don't let one of the end-times pastors breathe pop-culture into your spirit instead of Christ. If that's what you are hearing, you haven't found the right place yet. Good luck! And God Bless! wykael

I think this conversation has turned to a very important topic. Is there a distiction between how bad a sin is? From what I have learned, we need to call sin sin. If God says it's sin, we need to say it's sin. God destroyed 2 cities in the old testament for immoral behavior such as this. Did he destroy them for expoiting workers who were willing to earn pennies a day? Not according to the only record we have of the events. Apparently, God has a problem with this behavior. If we as a nation/world, and our companies as representatives of our interests say it's something other than what God says it is, doesn't that put us in a very precarious position? I don't think I personally am in a position to argue effectively against God. I think that's a tough one to win. That said, however, we have not been put here to judge. We haven't been put here to condemn those who feel different from how we do. We are here to educate them. We are here to love them. But we are not here to support their decision to sin. That's not Biblical. Jesus went into the homes of sinners. He supported them as people and tried to set them on the right path. But he did not condone the sin. I think we need to learn from his example.

I work for a Chrysler dealer, so I'm all for it.