anti-hillbilly

Today's church is double dipping I think; they don't pay taxes and they are getting govt money for faith based iniatives yet in how many towns do you see homes for unwed mothers or programs where the churches offer to pay medical expenses or day care for unwed mothers? They use those millions for political lobbying and campaigning for the republican party....and building bigger churches even though Jesus did most of his teaching and preaching outdoors. Theoritically I'm opposed to all taxation but it isn't gonna happen so we're left with reality. The reality is that democrats tax and spend and republicans tax and spend then borrow and spend and they spend it or funnel it to corporate pockets. They have to get the people to go along with this somehow so they "court" religious leaders and use effective marketing; they control the language [link]. Most churches and religious organizations have basically become an arm of the republican party or vice versa; they're not gonna take care of people they way Jesus told them to. SO I want my tax dollars to go for pell grants, extra cash for the elderly on social security, after school programs, universal health care, orphanages and the VA hospital system. Why should we liberals "go along to get along" on this issue when we're not the ones who are wrong here. You can see from the "history" of the plege that it wasn't the liberals who have changed the pledge to begin with. We are in favor of restoring it to the original words with the original intent. Also this would be a slippery slope that leads one step closer to a theocracy; bad, bad, bad. The religious right isn't content with freedom of religion and freedom of the people to worship as they please; they want to decide how everyone is to worship in this country and how everyone who doesn't "go along to get along" is to be punished when they don't comply (this would include christians of course since the majority of the people in this country are christian). Like it or not, even a atheist has a right to bring their children up as they decide and Micheal Newdow made a point when he went before the supreme court; he said that every morning when his daughter said the words "under God" when reciting the pledge; she was basically having the govt make her say that her father was wrong. Now we might know he's wrong but if you flip that around I wouldnt want the govt make my child say, "one nation NOT under God". --- The pledge is a secular pledge and should be restored as such so that all of us Americans can say it in one unified voice. (Interestingly the first lawsuits ever brought against the pledge were by the JWs for obvious reasons....the bible verse that says not to pledge oaths). Yes the govt is conficsating money; they're sucking the middle class dry and like 100 years ago when Teddy Roosevelt (a republican) came to office the rich are getting richer. Back then 1/8 of the population owned 7/8s of all the wealth in the country. Teddy Roosevelt busted up the corporations and earned the nick-name "trust-buster"; he was also an environmentalist. BUT now you can see that while everyone is consumed with phoney issues like "the pledge" and bills that attempt to put the 10 commandments into courtrooms, they're not paying any attention to the anti-trust laws that are being violated with all the corporate mergers that are going on. Even all this pandering by the republicans about the immagation issue is an attempt at trickery if this thread is true [link]. The religious right is hurting Christianity imo as well as our form of goverment; they're backing a bad horse either thru ignorance or thru their leadership's own personal lust for power and money; maybe a combination of both. Don't allow yourself to be fooled by the "Godly talk" because when you cut to the chase; it's just clever propaganda; marketing at it's worst (or best) depending on how you look at it. I sure hope the left doesn't start doing the same thing but it looks like it's heading that way. It's a shame in this day and age people want to hear what they want to hear and that "talk" is more important than policy. Boy we did get off on some tangents here didn't we. LOL. Oh well, I guess that's what forums are for. In a way it reminds me of the political conversations we used to have around my grandpa's kitchen table only now-a-days religion is mixed in with it.

On a comparison scale, I like both of them better than the other prominent Christian leaders. James Dobson makes me think of the wolf dressed up like grandma in "Little Red Riding Hood", I think Pat Robertson has lost his mind and Jerry Fallwell is just mean and tyrannical. Billy and Franklin are kind and seem more concerned with God than the others but I remember reading that they too maintained a surplus of over 30 million dollars in their ministry. That's a lot of old grandma and grandpa contributions that those folks probably needed for themselves. I'm sure there are many more poor ministers out here that never get any prominence that are doing a lot more for the Lord than all of these "big names" put together.

The only reason "under God" causes division is because of anti-American, anti-God types like the ACLU and People For The unAmerican Way that keep stirring strife. Let them be the peace makers and stop insisting the words "under God" be removed. Also to Katy Ann, if this is such an unimportant issue, why don't the liberal Democrats agree to let the words remain and then let the Congress get on with other matters? They complain how unimportant something is, yet they fight tooth and tonail for their side to prevail. Something doesn't make sense about this. You're wrong; you're just repeating the "political speak" of the right. I'm not anti-American or Anti-God and nor was the baptist minister who intentionally wrote it as a non-religious, secular, pledge. The Catholic organization, Knights of Columbus, spearheaded the drive to have "under God" added to the pledge in 1954 during the cold war. Francis Bellamy Bellamy commented on his thoughts as he created the pledge, and his reasons for choosing the careful wording: "It began as an intensive communing with salient points of our national history, from the Declaration of Independence onwards; with the makings of the Constitution... with the meaning of the Civil War; with the aspiration of the people... "The true reason for allegiance to the Flag is the 'republic for which it stands'. ...And what does that vast thing, the Republic mean? It is the concise political word for the Nation - the One Nation which the Civil War was fought to prove. To make that One Nation idea clear, we must specify that it is indivisible, as Webster and Lincoln used to repeat in their great speeches. And its future? "Just here arose the temptation of the historic slogan of the French Revolution which meant so much to Jefferson and his friends, 'Liberty, equality, fraternity'. No, that would be too fanciful, too many thousands of years off in realization. But we as a nation do stand square on the doctrine of liberty and justice for all..." Bellamy is buried in Rome, New York. another [link] This issue has more to do with politics and power than it does God. The far-right needs to stop trying to force it and get back to the Lord's business of feeding and clothing the poor with the millions of 501c3 dollars they take in annually; I would think God would be more concerned with that. -- Time to give to Ceasar what is Ceasar's and give to God what is God's....but then...hmmmm, that might include paying taxes.

This is the only one I could find with a quick search; but I'm not clear on the circumstances, who it is referring to. I don't know if it includes any slave or just Hebrew slaves. Deu 23:15 Thou shalt not deliver unto his master the servant which is escaped from his master unto thee:

[link]

I'm not sure if I've read it all; I skip around a lot and sometimes if I get to an extremely cruel part (that is suppose to be God's will) I turn the page and dismiss it. I don't believe the Genesis creation account; I think it's just a story. But...hmmmm, The concept of a merciful, loving God sometimes gives me the most doubt whenever I hear of a child being raped and murdered. I remember reading a book my mother-in-law had (my husband had told me it troubled him). It was about some child murders in England during the 1960s. Some guy and his girlfriend were abducting both little boys and little girls and he'd molest them then kill them with his girlfriend's help. He would also "audio tape" his attack. They had part of a transcript of one of the murders of a little girl about 12 and she was begging for her life and asking him to stop because he was hurting her and then she started screaming for Jesus to help her. "Please Jesus, please God oh God Jesus help me!!". Of course He didn't intervene and save her and the pervert strangeled her to death. I can't help but wonder how a merciful God could not help a child like that and then I get real uneasy and think, "because there's nobody up there to help, that's why" or I remember some of those passages in the OT where God tells people to kill kids and pregnant women. That really scares me so I have to mentally "pull back", regroup and pray. Because of God not protecting other innocent little children I find that even though I pray for my children every day I never totally trust God to watch out for them. I don't like feeling that way but I do. I've been praying for an answer to this delimma off and on for years and so far I haven't gotten an answer. I try not to think about it too much.

My husband lost his faith and he was a devout believer. I never thought he would be an atheist but it happened and the main reason it happened (I think) was because of the doctrine of eternal hell. I try not to think about hell at all for that reason.

That's just stupid. I wouldn't have changed the name to spiritual skate night; I'd have kept it like it was.

Yeah, I'm just over the hill from Area 51 in NV and there are always lights in the night sky over yonder. I have yet to see any little green men, though. Oooh I bet that is interesting! Have you ever used binoculars or a telescope to try and see anything?

Being able to legally say, do and think what I want as long as I don't hurt anybody. To legally come and go as I please without restrictions.

Well they did have that school getting blown up in Chechnya two yrs ago; to which our govt told them to "negoiate" with the Muslims. Putin wasn't too happy about that and responded by asking why our govt wasn't negoiating with Al Quaida. [link] Here's another recent article about Michael Gorbachev "warning" the west. [link]

Maybe they're secret government projects.

I think it's wrong to blame lack of faith for someone not being healed. The bible says if a person has faith the size of a mustard seed that person's prayer will be answered. I think people who refuse medical attention for a sick child certainly fulfill that requirement -- then they have to suffer thru watching the child die. If you're sick, see a doctor, don't expect a miracle from God. I think God is up there but I'm one of those people that does not believe He intervenes too often. He has created this world and it's natural laws and while we're here we are subject to those laws which sometimes include sickness. Fortunately He has equipped man with enough brains to sometimes figure out how to manipulate those laws and figure out ways to fight the nastier ones that have to do with health.

The term "Nanny State" was coined by House Speaker Newt Gingrich, and describes excessive government involvement in social issues and problems. It has nothing to do with marketing ploy, as you suggest. If paying the bill for research that got nowhere in the private sector isn't excessive government involvement in a social issue, what is? Do you really think the government is going to do this because they care about your health? The only thing a politician cares about is re-election. He cant buy your vote, so he promises to invest in a way to save your life. How cruel is that? Name me ONE positive thing that resulted in government meddling? What medication keeps us alive past 40 that the government had a hand in? None that I know of unless you count vaccinations. The bulk of our money has been spent on the military industrial complex yet when our soldiers get to the field they don't have what they need. When they come home without limbs the govt doesn't even pay for all their medical care. So much for supporting the military. Newt Gingrich is quite a guy isn't he Marnie LOL. Yes it is a (link: "marketing ploy" to help the republicans get re-elected and along with several other handy little "jingles" it's been quite effective at demonizing their democratic opposition over the years. They need those jingles because republicans, despite all their talk about values and morals, have had the most (link: corrupt administrations in history; this one being no exception. I'll tell you one thing, their votes are most definitely for sale to the highest bidder. It's time for campaign finance reform but don't hold your breath. I do think there are some politicians who may actually care about this country and the people in it; but their voices and ideas are drowned out. Or they're subjected to character assasinations by the corporately owned media that dominates the airwaves and print media. As I said before, our money is being taken and spent; the bulk ends up in corporate pockets. This administration isn't only spending what we're paying in already they borrowing and spending (or stealing). It is time for the goverment to fund healthcare and start financing the big medical research projects. Research isn't cheap but everybody benefits when there's a genuine breakthru. Perhaps they should put a couple of selections on our federal income tax forms...where we could have a choice in directing where we the people want at least a portion of our tax dollars spent. After all, they're certainly not going to stop taxing us but as for myself I'd much rather see the billions that have ended up in the pockets of Haliburton or Carlyle Group put toward health care, medical research, social security checks, after school programs, or college grants. They need to cut out all this govt money being funneled to faith based iniatives too; what a scam. But hey, that's just me.

The govt foots the bill for a lot of things (both foreign and domestic) and is always sticking it's nose in where it doesn't belong (both foreign and domestic) so the least they can do is stick it in and foot the bill for something that may actually help somebody. Private industry and big business relies on govt corporate welfare which too many people try hard to overlook (why, I don't know) courtesy of the middle class taxpayer. I'm all for stem cell research, all types; even pipe dreams come true sometimes. If they didn't, the life expectancy would still be under 40 and we'd still be driving horses and buggies and using kerosene lamps. If I'm gonna be forced to pay taxes you better believe I expect some benefit from it; filling corporate contractors pockets while they reap billions in profits does not benefit me. I pay taxes so it's not a "nanny state" if that money is put to good use for the people instead of being funneled to the corporate elite. "Nanny state" is just a negative marketing ploy used for the sole purpose of getting the masses to vote against their own best interests.

Noone is forcing religion down anyones throat. Yes they are; that's why they're trying to put the 10 commandments into judicial buildings. I suppose if someone offered to give you a bible you would view it as trying to force it down your throat. I'd accept it but I have several already so it'd be better to give it to someone who didn't have one. This is only a guess, but you aren't a Christian are you? Guess again; I am a Christian. I think, if you were, you would understand why we would be concerned to see our government so willing to throw out the core beliefs upon which this nation was founded. No, you think that because I'm a Christian I'm suppose to think like the evangelical types; like the religious right..... I don't! This nation was founded upon Roman Law and liberty (attempts at it at least, the southern founders refused to give african slaves freedom so we fought a bloody civil war 80 yrs later and a civil rights movement 100 yrs after that......in the bible-belt of all places.. to get it for them). The laws were not meant to keep our government free of fundamental principles like honor, justice or truth, but to protect the people from the government diminishing religious influence. Our laws don't do that now. The laws were put in place to keep the majority from mistreating and bullying over the minority. Getting "religion" of any persuasion doesn't guarantee that a person will be honorable, value justice or be truthful; just look at all the politicians who are "claiming Jesus" today and getting caught in one scandal after another. Go back and look at that video again. The "many" forefathers you speak of were not in the majority and, as you said, their disdain managed to become visible in their writtings regardless. While they didn't like christianity they did take a neutral position toward it in the law and that's good. Even the christian founders had no problem with neutrality toward religion; but then, the European inquisitions and protestant witch burnings were probably still fresh in their minds as well as what happened at Salem Massachuettes. While our founding fathers were able to separate their personal feelings about religion from the laws they set to paper I can guarantee you that the christian evangelical leaders of today are not able or willing to do that; they cannot rise above their personal feelings and beliefs. God help us all if they are able to override the Constitution and Bill of Rights. When we begin to remove it and its influence from government, we remove morality itself from government Writing "God" and the OT 10 commandments on buildings is not going to make people moral. Only 3% of the population identifies itself as atheist yet in our religiously saturated environment there's plenty of crimes committed; prisons are full of people who probably went to Sunday school. -- Our govt is suppose to take a neutral position and not show favoritism toward any one religion or denomination; that is the just and moral position to take. Nonetheless, I still believe in what he was trying to achieve, whether or not he did. What he was trying to achieve was political in nature and he was "using" other people's belief system to achieve it; so I do NOT believe in what he was trying to achieve. He was trying to "fool" Christians (the way Butero referred to it earlier), I think it was shameful and insulting and I'm glad he got caught. I'm sick to death of hearing politicians TALK about family values and God. Stop talking about it and start doing good things to help people instead. I do not believe the best place for the ten commandments is the church, as you allude. Thats like saying, the best place for a woman is in the kitchen. I've never seen the 10 commandments posted in any church I've ever attended. Kinda dumb to demand they be posted in public buildings if the churches won't even post them on their property?? -- I think the inside of a church is a good place to post them, then maybe put them on a big sign outside the church so every car that passes by can see them. It'd be legal, provide lots of exposure and you wouldn't have to waste money attempting to violate and weaken our nation's laws by forcing their display inside judicial buildings. If that succeeded what's next, a "Hail Mary" inside courtrooms and courthouses? Then the Muslims will want their stuff in there, then the wiccans etc. etc. Do you see the bad prescedent that could be set here? -- There's a place for everything and our govt provides us the freedom to exhibit and advertise our beliefs on our own turf which is quite public already! Personally I think the govt bends over backward to accommodate religion since they don't make churches pay taxes and they don't audit them to see how they spend or steal the money. I wish I could be so persecuted. The way I see it is the ten commandments are both TRUE and WISE. The primary argument from people like yourself is that, since the ten commandments come from "religion", they, for some reason, do not belong in a government building. That's your perogative. I don't honor the sabbath and keep it holy; do you? I gave you my primary argument already but once again the 10 commandments do come from a specific religion and it is against the first amendment for the govt to endorse or outlaw any particular religion; they're suppose to be neutral. Jesus' death on the cross is suppose to be a "Free gift" not something to be forced on people. Your disdain for religion is even more aparant than that of the forefathers whose writing you so happily use to justify your own position. My disdain is for religious bullies and hypocrits who would do better to practice what they preach and clean up their own act; religious bullies who want to make law based on their own personal interpretations and narrow beliefs.... but do not want to follow the laws that have served this country well for 230 yrs. Lets fool ourselves into thinking that all men are born good and morality is somehow built into our genetic code, and see where that gets us 50 years from now. And a theocracy 50 yrs from now will get us right where those Muslim countries are today; just with a different diety and different leaders speaking on behalf of the diety and playing the "enforcer". I'm sorry we disagree on this and I hope I haven't made an enemy. In recent years I've noticed that voicing opinions in opposition to the voices coming out of Colorado Springs or Lynchberg Va. is an instant way to make enemies out of brothers and sisters in Christ; most unfortunate but somebody's got to do it. It might as well be me.

I've got an idea! Why don't we do away with 501c3 status of churches and religious organizations (they're political entities anyway) and set that money aside to feed and clothe the poor........something the churches should have been doing without taxpayer assistance already (instead of building massive church buildings). As for the minimum wage what difference does it make if there's an American Union in the works; the Mexicans will provide all the slave labor the big corporations need without anyone standing in their way.

Check out the Daily Show as well where he talks about how Global Warming will be worse than a Nuclear Holocaust (which shows how nutty this guy is). I'm gonna have to watch and see how he phrased that exactly. Actually there's some truth to that...depending. Global warming would affect the entire planet and stop crops from growing which would lead to millions of deaths by starvation. There's been a couple of mini ice-ages in the past 800 years. In Europe, the crops wouldn't grow for years (1200s) and people started to starve, break out in boils, the plague occurred then. Naturally they thought it was "Revelation" coming true and the end of the world...of course they were wrong about that but half of the european population ended up dying. (History channel). There was also a mini ice-age in the early 1800s and a lot of people moved west cause the crops in the eastern U.S. wouldn't grow. Of course an all out nuclear holocaust would ruin everything but on a localized scale nuclear war, while devastating to the area it's in, wouldn't affect the crops on the other side of the world. I've never thought of him as being nutty even if I disagree with him on something. But that's just me. Thanks again!

I bet you would have laughed if that congressman was a democrat. Forcing religion down people's throats in violation of our traditional govt laws is not morality it's politicial pandering. It's also extremely dangerous but I somehow suspect you won't understand why. The laws our founding fathers passed kept church and state separate; they reflected neutrality toward religion. Yes they had a healthy respect for God but keep in mind a healthy respect for God doesn't necessarily equate to a healthy respect toward religion. Many of our founding fathers actually expressed outright disdain for Chrisitianity and this IS refected in many of their writings. We should be grateful that they rose above their disdain and maintained a neutral position so that those who do embace Christianity are not hindered. Now back to the video; that republican congressman demonstrated that he didn't have a clue what the 10 commandments were and yet he was sponsoring a bill to put them in judicial buildings. It's obvious he was doing that for political reasons and not because he thought we'd lose some sense of direction without them as he said on the video (how could he lose some sense of direction when he didn't even know what they were). As for the building part evidently you didn't get it at all. What better building could a person put the 10 commandments in? Answer: Why a CHURCH building of course!

I don't need to. I have heard Al Gore lecture many times on it. The film is nothing more than his slide show (he admits this himself) and the slideshow is absolutely horrible. Why watch what I have already seen via slides? When, where did you see him lecture? This new confounded contraption called "Television." Apparently he did a lecture on some "station" called C-SPAN. He also did an interview on "The Daily Show." What I'm really curious about is how you are questioning if I've seen it but refusing to deal with what I said. Hmmmmmmmm, distraction? What's wrong with questioning? I thought you saw him in person or something; my mistake. I heard about the movie but haven't seen it nor have I seen him give any interviews. I'll go to C-Span and watch it; they should have it archived there, thanks!

I don't need to. I have heard Al Gore lecture many times on it. The film is nothing more than his slide show (he admits this himself) and the slideshow is absolutely horrible. Why watch what I have already seen via slides? When, where did you see him lecture?

I wasn't the one who first strayed off topic; I was addressing the person who did. You should scold them! I know the words "separation of church and state" are not in the Constitution. However, separation of church and state are clearly outlined in the first amendment to the Bill of Rights. Since it's the very FIRST amendment it must have been quite important to the founders. -- For the stubborn, Thomas Jefferson made the concept crystal clear in his reply to the Danbury Baptists. What makes America a great place to live? Lots of things! Clean air and water standards (start to slip a little on this one) Worker Safety Protections (went backwards here in the mining industry ) A 40 hour work week Social Security for the Elderly The Civil Rights Movement The Equal Rights Movement Discrimination Protections Rural Electrification (like TVA) Child Labor Laws The Minimum Wage (starting to slip on this one too) Americans with disabilities Act The Freedom of Information Act (well this one was good; we're starting to backtrack on it though) Food and Drug Safety Regulations Organized Labor The School Lunch Program The Voting Rights Act (danger! danger! this one is in danger!) Other things: The latest in medical technology and advancements Diverse churches, plenty to choose from! Dvds Cds cable television birth control satellite radio grocery stores malls bookstores and libraries (my favorite place) gourmet coffee shops public schools interstate highway system satellite radio It's not perfect; there's more work to be done but still, if it weren't for the wars going on this would be the best time ever to be alive in the United States! The best time in the history of the world to be alive actually! The only places that might have it better are Sweden, Norway and Finland so we're doing pretty darned good for the most part.....so far.

Have many of you have actually seen the film?

I totally disagree with that post; separation of church and state was necessary to prevent Christian on Christian abuses. Do the Salem Witch Trials ring a bell? How bout the inquisitions? The more prominent of our founding fathers believed in God but not Jesus and were downright hostile to the Christian religion; it is to their credit that they maintained a neutral position toward religion when forming our laws (which are based on Roman Law). The DVD you watched has to be part of that rewriting of history that has been going on in some "christian circles" in recent years. While their intentions may be in the right place they're undermining our form of goverment and that is sad! There's a saying that goes, "The Road to Hell is Paved with Good Intentions". I think it's applicable where this issue is concerned. Now I have to say that I'm very grateful to have been born in this country. I hope we can keep it a country fit to live in; that means keeping it a FREE country.