SoulGrind

A little further research into the Bible will show that in the beginning was the Word... Further research will recognize the Word as being Jesus Christ. Also keep in mind, there is also the holy spirit. This can see a bit confusing... God, Christ and the Holy Spirit all sound like 3 distinct entities - when in fact, they are all a part of one being. The best way to attempt to describe this is this... I am my mother's son. I am the network admin for the company I work for and I am also a husband to my wife. While separately, I am those three things, it doesn't change the fact that all three of those things are me. So when God references "us" - I believe He is referring to Himself as God, Christ (The Word), and the Holy Spirit. Maybe someone with more theology under their belt can better clarify this for you. Hope this helps.

I have heard the argument that certain sounds (tonality, pitch, etc.) have a physical and mental effect on a person. A few pastor's I know have "preached" on the subject stating that music (regardless of the lyrical content) is only as good as the style in which it is played. I personally have a hard time with this approach. For me, personally, I am of the opinion that if the lyrics and the delivery give glory and honor to God - then SHOUT IT, SCREAM IT, AND YELL IT form the roof tops if you have to!

SoulGrind, please address the argument Till gives. I am sure you can find the article very easily. I am not finding any such article - if you really want me to look at it, send me a PM with where I can find it, then I will answer you.

SoulGrind, please address the argument Till gives. I am sure you can find the article very easily. Oh - I found him - he too takes scripture out of context, goes on and on with personal opinion, cites very few references, none of which are seemingly very credable (scholars? No. Scientists? No Archaeologists? No, the list goes on). That, in my opinion - is lip service, nothing more. NEXT!

Hi George This link from Grant Jeffries may help you with that question. My Webpage It certainly makes you think. WOW! I knew some of this stuff - but not all of it! Absolutely amazing. Will be very interesting to see the prophecy of the Christian Bible unfold before our eyes. And yet, the Bible even prophesied that there will be those who still don't believe, even when the signs are given. How sad. How sad indeed!

I'm sure there are countless - I was just quoting information - not making any personal statements (other than I believe and I find the statistics quite facinating).

Believe me, I don't understand it all either! It's quite a mind-numbing thing to consider. I understand the end result - 1+E18!!!! But the method to which it was derived - astounding! Either way, I too found it facinating! Hence the reason I shared the info!

CHAPTER 3 - THE CHRIST OF PROPHECY Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me - John 5:39. THE WORD "Scriptures" in this passage refers to the Old Testament. Christ is saying that in the Old Testament we will find the prophecies referring to Himself. It is therefore in these prophecies, and their fulfillment, that we may look if we wish to find evidence that Christ is the Messiah, the Son of God, the saviour of mankind, and everything else which was prophesied of Him, and which He claimed to be. If we find these prophecies to be fulfilled in Christ, we will establish not only that Christ is the Messiah predicted in the Old Testament, but that those prophecies were given by God Himself. For if they were not given by God, no man would have fulfilled any number of them, as will be evident later in this chapter. In order to evaluate our evidence we shall use the same principle of probability which was stated and used in the preceding chapter. In evaluating these prophecies, we shall have to answer this question regarding each prophecy: One man in how many men has fulfilled this prophecy? I realize that some will object to this question, saying that these prophecies were made with respect to Christ, and no other man has, or even can, fulfill them. This, of course, is true when you consider the mass of prophecies regarding Christ, but it is not true of all individual prophecies. It was prophesied, for example, that Christ would be born in Bethlehem; certainly other persons have been born in Bethlehem. It was prophesied that Christ would be crucified; other men have been crucified. I certainly am not trying to be sacrilegious in asking these questions; but I am trying to look at the evidence entirely unbiased, that I may the better give a clear argument. The Inter-Varsity Christian Fellowship at Pasadena City College sponsored a class in Christian evidences. One section of the work of this class was to consider the evidence produced by the fulfilled prophecies referring to the first advent of Christ. The students were asked to be very conservative in their probability estimates. They discussed each prophecy at length, bringing out various conditions which might affect the probability of any man fulfilling it. After discussion, the students agreed unanimously on a definite estimate as being both reasonable and conservative. At the end of the evaluations the students expressed their feelings thus: If any one were able to enter into the discussions and help in placing the estimates, as they had done, that person would certainly agree that the estimates were conservative. The estimates used in this chapter are a combination of the estimates given by this class on Christian evidences combined with estimates given me later by some twelve different classes of college students, representing more than 600 students. I have carefully weighed the estimates and have changed some to make them more conservative. If the reader does not agree with the estimates given, he may make his own estimates and then carry them through to their logical conclusions. We considered the following eight prophecies: 1. "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting" (Micah 5:2). This prophecy predicts that the Christ is to be born in Bethlehem. Since this is the first prophecy to be considered there are no previously set restrictions, so our question is: One man in how many, the world over, has been born in Bethlehem? The best estimate which we can make of this comes from the attempt to find out the average population of Bethlehem, from Micah down to the present time, and divide it by the average population of the earth during the same period. One member of the class was an assistant in the library so he was assigned to get this information. He reported at the next meeting that the best determination of the ratio that he could determine was one to 280,000. Since the probable population of the earth has averaged less than two billion, the population of Bethlehem has averaged less than 7,150. Our answer may be expressed in the form that one man in 7,150/2,000,000,000 or one man in 2.8 x 105 was born in Bethlehem. 2. "Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me" (Mal. 3:1). Our question here is: Of the men who have been born in Bethlehem, one man in how many has had a forerunner to prepare his way? John the Baptist, of course, was the forerunner of Christ. But since there appears to be no material difference between the people born in Bethlehem and those born any other place in the world, the question can just as well be general: One man in how many, the world over, has had a forerunner to prepare his way? The students said that the prophecy apparently referred to a special messenger of God, whose one duty was to prepare the way for the work of Christ, so there is a further restriction added. The students finally agreed on one in 1,000 as being extremely conservative. Most of the members thought the estimate should be much larger. We will use the estimate as 1 in 103. 3. "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation: lowly, and riding upon ... a colt the foal of an ass" (Zech. 9:9). Our question then is: One man in how many, who was born in Bethlehem and had a forerunner, did enter Jerusalem as a king riding on a colt the foal of an ass? This becomes so restrictive that we should consider an equivalent question: One man in how many, who has entered Jerusalem as a ruler, has entered riding on a colt the foal of an ass? The students said that this was a very hard thing to place an estimate on. They knew of no one but Christ who had so entered. The students thought that at least in more modern times any one entering Jerusalem as a king would use a more dignified means of transportation. They agreed to place an estimate of 1 in 104. We will use 1 in 102. 4. "And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends"(Zech. 13:6). Christ was betrayed by Judas, one of His disciples, causing Him to be put to death, wounds being made in His hands. There seems to be no relation between the fulfillment of this prophecy and those which we have previously considered. We may then ask the question: One man in how many, the world over, has been betrayed by a friend, and that betrayal has resulted in his being wounded in his hands? The students said that it was very rare to be betrayed by a friend, and still rarer for the betrayal to involve wounding in the hands. One in 1.000 was finally agreed upon, though most of the students would have preferred a larger number. So we will use the 1 in 103. 5. "And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver" (Zech. 11:12). The question here is very simple: Of the people who have been betrayed, one in how many has been betrayed for exactly thirty pieces of silver? The students thought this would be extremely rare and set their estimate as one in 10,000, or 1 in 104. We will us 1 in 103. 6. "And the Lord said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prized at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord" (Zech. 11:13). This is extremely specific. All thirty pieces of silver are not to be returned. They are to be cast down in the house of the Lord, and they are to go to the potter. You will recall that Judas in remorse tried to return the thirty pieces of silver, cut the chief priest would not accept them. So Judas threw them down on the floor of the temple and went and hanged himself. The chief priest then took the money and bought a field of the potter to bury strangers in. Our question is: One man in how many, after receiving a bribe for the betrayal of a friend, had returned the money, had it refused, had thrown it on the floor in the house of the Lord, and then had it used to purchase a field from the potter? The students said they doubted if there has ever been another incident involving all of these items, but they agreed on an estimate of one in 100,000. They were very sure that this was conservative. So we use the estimate as 1 in 105. 7. "He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth" (Isa. 53:7). One man in how many, after fulfilling the above prophecies, when he is oppressed and afflicted and is on trial for his life, though innocent, will make no defense for himself? Again my students said they did not know that this had ever happened in any case other than Christ's. At least it is extremely rare, so they placed their estimate as one in 10,000 or 1 in 104. We will use 1 in 103. 8. "For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet"(Ps. 22:16). The Jews are still looking for the coming of Christ; in fact, He might have come any time after these prophecies were written up to the present time, or even on into the future. So our question is: One man in how many, from the time of David on, has been crucified? After studying the methods of execution down through the ages and their frequency, the students agreed to estimate this probability at one in 10,000 or 1 in 104, which we will use. If these estimates are considered fair, one man in how many men, the world over, will fulfill all eight prophecies? This question can be answered by applying our principles of probability. In other words, by multiplying all of our estimates together, or 1 in 2.8 x 105 x 103 x 102 x 103 x 105 x 103 x 104. This gives 1 in 2.8 x 1028, where 28 means that we have 28 ciphers following the 2.8. Let us simplify and reduce the number by calling it 1 in 1028. Written out this number is 1 in 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. This is the answer to the question: One man in how many men has fulfilled these eight prophecies? But we are really concerned with the answer to the question: What is the chance that any man might have lived from the day of these prophecies down to the present time and have fulfilled all of the eight prophecies? We can answer this question by dividing our 1028 by the total number of people who have lived since the time of these prophecies. The best information available indicates the number to be about 88 billion or 8.8 x 1010. To simplify the computation let us call the number 1011. By dividing these two numbers we find that the chance that any man might have lived down to the present time and fulfilled all eight prophecies is 1 in 1017. Editor's note: It is probable that 88 billion or 8.8 x 1010 assumes a growth rate for the earth's population which is much too small - that most of the people who have ever lived are still alive today - suggesting that this number may be too large by a factor of ten. If so, this will affect the final result by the same factor of ten; ten times fewer total people who might have fulfilled these prophecies means only one tenth the chance that one of them might have done it by accident. Our number would become 1018 instead of 1017. The number used in this book is very conservative. Let us try to visualize this chance. If you mark one of ten tickets, and place all of the tickets in a hat, and thoroughly stir them, and then ask a blindfolded man to draw one, his chance of getting the right ticket is one in ten. Suppose that we take 1017 silver dollars and lay them on the face of Texas. They will cover all of the state two feet deep. Now mark one of these silver dollars and stir the whole mass thoroughly, all over the state. Blindfold a man and tell him that he can travel as far s he wishes, but he must pick up one silver dollar and say that this is the right one. What chance would he have of getting the right one? Just the same chance that the prophets would have had of writing these eight prophecies and having them all come true in any one man, from their day to the present time, providing they wrote using their own wisdom. Now these prophecies were either given by inspiration of God or the prophets just wrote them as they thought they should be. In such a case the prophets had just one chance in 1017 of having them come true in any man, but they all came true in Christ. This means that the fulfillment of these eight prophecies alone proves that God inspired the writing of those prophecies to a definiteness which lacks only one change in 1017 of being absolute. Sometimes we weigh our chances in the business world, and say if an investment has nine chances in ten of being profitable, and only one chance in ten of being a failure, it is safe enough for us to make the investment. Whoever heard of an investment that had only one chance in 1017 of failure? The business world has no conception of such an investment. Yet we are offered this investment by God. By the acceptance of Jesus Christ as our Savior we know, from only these eight prophecies which lack only 1 chance in 1017 of being an absolute proof, that that investment will yield the wonderful dividend of eternal life with Christ. Can anyone be so unreasonable as to reject Jesus Christ and pin his hope of eternal life on such a slim chance as finding the right silver dollar among this great mass, covering the whole state of Texas two feet deep? It does not seem possible, yet every man who rejects Christ is doing just that. More than three hundred prophecies from the Old Testament which deal with the first advent of Christ have been listed. Every one of them was completely fulfilled by Jesus Christ. Let us see what happens when we take more than eight prophecies. Suppose we add eight more prophecies to our list, and assume that their chance of fulfillment is the same as the eight just considered. The chance that one man would fulfill all sixteen is 1 x 1028 x 1017 or 1 in 1045. Let us try to visualize this as we did before. Take this number of silver dollars. If you make these into a solid ball, you will have a great sphere with a center at the earth, and extending in all directions more than 30 times as far as from the earth to the sun. (If a train had started from the earth at the time the Declaration of Independence was signed, and had traveled steadily toward the sun at the rate of sixty miles per hour, day and night, it would be about reaching its destination today. But remember that our ball of silver dollars extends thirty times that far in all directions.) If you can imagine the marking of one silver dollar, and then thoroughly stirring it into this great ball, and blindfolding a man and telling him to pick out one dollar, and expect it to be the marked one, you have somewhat of a picture of how absolutely the fulfillment of sixteen prophecies referring to Jesus Christ proves both that He is the Son of God and that our Bible is inspired. Certainly God directed the writing of His Word. In order to extend this consideration beyond all bounds of human comprehension, let us consider forty-eight prophecies, similar in their human chance of fulfillment to the eight which we originally considered, using a much more conservative number, 1 in 1021. Applying the same principle of probability used so far, we find the chance that any one man fulfilled all forty-eight prophecies to be 1 in 10157. This is really a large number and it represents an extremely small chance. Let us try to visualize it. The silver dollar, which we have been using, is entirely too large. We must select a smaller object. The electron is about as small an object as we know of. It is so small that it will take 2.5 x 1015 of them laid side by side to make a line, single file, one inch long. If we were going to count the electrons in this line one inch long, and counted 250 each minute, and if we counted day and night, it would take us 19,000,000 years to count just the one-inch line of electrons. If we had a cubic inch of these electrons and we tried to count them, it would take us 1.2 x 1038 years (2 x 1028 times the 6 billion years back to the creation of the solar system). With this introduction, let us go back to our chance of 1 in 10157. Let us suppose that we are taking this number of electrons, marking one, and thoroughly stirring it into the whole mass, then blindfolding a man and letting him try to find the right one. What chance has he of finding the right one? What kind of a pile will this number of electrons make? They make an inconceivably large volume. The distance from our system of stars, or galaxy, to the next nearest one is nearly 1,500,000 light-years; that is the distance that light will travel in 1,500,000 years going 186,000 miles each and every second. This distance is so great that if every man, woman and child in the United States, 200,000,000 of them, had a library of 65,000 volumes, and you collected every book in all of these libraries and them started on this journey of 1,500,000 light-years, and decided to place one letter from one of the books on each mile (e.g., if "the" was the first word in the first book you would put "t" on the first mile, "h" on the second mile, and "e" on the third mile; then leave a mile blank without a letter and start the next word in the same manner, etc.), before you complete your journey you will use up every letter in every book of every one of the libraries and have to call for more. Space, by some authorities, is supposed to extend in all directions to the distance, not of 1,500,000 light-years. but more than 4,000 times that far or 6,000,000,000 light-years. Let us make a solid ball of electrons, extending in all directions from the earth to the distance of six billion light-years. Have we used up our 10157 electrons? No, we have made such a small hole in the mass that we cannot see it. We can make this solid ball of electrons, extending in all directions to the distance of six billion light-years 6 x 1028 times. Suppose again that we had this great amount of electrons, 10157 of them, and we were able to make 500 of these tremendous balls, six billion light-years in radius, each minute. If we worked day and night it would take us 1010 times the 6 billion years back to creation to use up our supply of electrons. Now, one of these electrons was marked and thoroughly stirred into the whole mass; blindfold your man and ask him to find the marked electron. No man could in any way look over this mass of electrons, blindfolded or not blindfolded, and pick out any one electron, let alone the one that had been marked. (The electron, in fact, is so small that it cannot be seen with powerful microscope.) To the extent, then, that we know this blindfolded man cannot pick out the marked electron, we know that the Bible is inspired. This is not merely evidence. It is proof of the Bible's inspiration by God--proof so definite that the universe is not large enough to hold the evidence. Some will say that our estimates of the probability of the fulfillment of these prophecies are too large and the numbers should be reduced. Ask a man to submit his own estimates, and if they are smaller than these we have used, we shall add a few more prophecies to be evaluated and this same number will be reestablished or perhaps exceeded. Our Bible students claim that there are more than three hundred prophecies dealing with Christ's first advent. If this number is correct, and it no doubt is, you could set your estimates ridiculously low on the whole three hundred prophecies and still obtain tremendous evidence of inspiration. For example you may place all of your estimates at one in four. You may say that one man in four has been born in Bethlehem: that one of these children in four was taken to Egypt, to avoid slaughter; that one in four of these came back and made his home in Nazareth; that one in four of these was a carpenter; that one in four of these was betrayed for thirty pieces of silver; that one in four of these has been crucified on a cross; that one in four was then buried in a rich man's tomb; yes, even that one in four rose from the dead on the third day; and so on for all of the three hundred prophecies and from them I will build a number much larger than the one we obtained from the forty-eight prophecies. Any man who rejects Christ as the Son of God is rejecting a fact proved perhaps more absolutely than any other fact in the world. Science Speaks By PETER W. STONER, M.S. and ROBERT C. NEWMAN, S.T.M., Ph.D., 1976 http://www.geocities.com/stonerdon/science_speaks.html#c9

I'm not so sure of that - let's use a simpler system to analyze this. If Jesus was one man in 50, that would be well, 1 in 50. Now if the population increased to 100, then that would be 1 in 100. So yes, the odds do go down. I do agree that this was an odd one to throw in. Follow the link in the original post to read their reasons for using this particular prophecy. Are we absolutly certain of this? I haven't bothered to check this out for myself, but it would be a curious study, would it not? Uhm - that's a very big deal as no one else has ever made such a claim (at least not from a Biblical standpoint). Well, this would also be difficult, as each of the versus mentioned were in direct support of the fullfilled prophecy. Of course, we could still use the same argument as the "Donkey" for a few, but not necessarily the ability to match decendant of Abraham, the tribe of Judah, the House of David, and birthplace of Bethleham. That's 4 out of 4 that can not be predetermined by Jesus if he were mere man. Besides, the similarities between OT prophecy and NT prophecy revealed are too numereous to refute. Sure, one or two "coincidences" would be easy to rule out I'm sure, but more than 10, now we're getting into something a little more than coincidence - now we're talking pre-ordained structure. And due to the timelines involved, the only way this could be achieved is through divine revelation from God, revealed in man through Christ. I dunno about you, but I'm no math major with an M.S. like the author who made produced claims... PETER W. STONER, M.S. Chairman of the Departments of Mathematics and Astronomy at Pasadena City College until 1953; Chairman of the science division, Westmont College, 1953-57; Professor Emeritus of Science, Westmont College; Professor Emeritus of Mathematics and Astronomy, Pasadena City College. Unless you have the credentials to refute this gentleman's claims, then I guess you're in the same boat I'm in.

So true - nor can you plan who you are sentenced to die along side with (in the case of the two criminals Christ was crucified with). Nor can one predetermine their own ancestrial lineage. Nor can one rise from the dead (unless you're the Christ or someone God has commanded to live again, i.e. Lazarus).

No, we don't know that God commanded it. If we did, we wouldn't be arguing about it. Where as it has been determined that it was a commandment from God? If they could have worked it out for themselves, as you acknowledge they could, then it doesn't have to come from a divine source. So how exactly do you have an argument that it MUST have come from a divine source? Simple, until Moses, the inspired author of the first five books of the Bible wrote down the commandment to circumcise babies on the 8th day, there were no other accounts of practiced circumcision. "...And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you." [Genesis 17:9-11 - KJV] "And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised." [Leviticus 12:3 - KJV] Prior to this, there was no practice of circumcision (Biblically or historically as far as I can tell from the research I've done). Only after the Hebrews introduced it to the "gentiles" did circumcision become a common practice.

Other instances of prophecy relating to Christ are as follows: The Messiah was to be... ...born of a virgin [isaiah 7:14]. Jesus fulfilled the prophecy in Matthew 1:21-23 ...a decendant of Abraham [Genesis 12:1-3; 22:1]. Jesus fulfilled the prophecy in in Matthew 1:1; Luke 3:34 ...of the tribe of Judah [Genesis 49:10]. Jesus fulfilled the prophecy in Luke 3:33 ...of the house of David [2 Samuel 7:12-16; Jeremiah 33:14-16]. Jesus fulfilled the prophecy in Matthew 1:1; Luke 1:32; 3:31] ...born in Bethlehem [Micah 5:2]. Jesus fulfilled the prophecy in Matthew 2:1-6; Luke 2:4-7 ...taken to Egypt [Hosea 1:1]. Jesus fulfilled the prophecy in Matthew 2:13-15 ...heralded by a messanger [isaiah 40:3-5; Malachi 3:1]. Jesus fulfilled the prophecy in Matthew 3:1-3; Mark 1:1-3; Luke 3:1-6 The Messiah would... ...enter Jerusalem on a donkey [Zechariah 9:9]. Jesus fulfilled the prophecy in Matthew 21:6-11; Luke 19:28-38; John 12:12-15 ...be betrayed by a friend [Psalm 41:9; 55:12-14]. Jesus fulfilled the prophecy in Matthew 26:20-25, 47-50; Luke 22:3-6; John 13:18-30 ...be betrayed for thirty pieces of silver [Zechariah 11:12-13]. Jesus fulfilled the prophecy in Matthew 26:14-16; 27:3-10 ...be silent as a lamb before his accusers [isaiah 53:7]. Jesus fulfilled the prophecy in Matthew 27:12-14; Mark 15:3-5 ...be crucified, with his hands, feet, and side pierced [Psalm 22:16; Zechariah 12:10]. Jesus fulfilled the prophecy in Luke 24:39; John 19:18, 34-37; 20:20-28 ...thirst on the cross and be given drugged wine or vinegar [Psalm 69:21]. Jesus fulfilled the prophecy in Matthew 27:34; Mark 15:23; Luke 23:36; John 19:29 ...see lots cast for his garments [Psalm 69:21]. Jesus fulfilled the prophecy in Matthew 27:35; Mark 15:24; John 19:23-24 ...die with transgressors [isaiah 53:8-12]. Jesus fulfilled the prophecy in Matthew 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 22:37; 23:32-33 ...be buried by a rich man [isaiah 53:9]. Jesus fulfilled the prophecy in Matthew 27:57-60; Mark 15:42-46; Luke 23:50-53 ...rise from the dead [Psalm 16:10]. Jesus fulfilled the prophecy in Matthew 28:5-6; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:5-7; Acts 2:31 That's some pretty eye opening stuff if you ask me...

Ah - there it is... I missed it. I owe you an appology.

Your were trying to use the Biblical instruction to circumcise after 8 days as an argument that it must have come from God. The response is along the lines that they could have worked it out for themselves if earlier circumcision resulted in problems. Does this not undermine your argument about how it must have come from God? I'm sure they COULD have worked it out. But it has never been determined that the HEBREW/ISRAEL nation "worked it out." What we do know is that God commanded it, and they (Israel) followed the commandment. So, no, there is no undermining. The only thing that would undermine such a thing would be to present legitament, historical texts accounting for such trial and error attempts on behalf of ISRAEL prior to receiving the Levitical Law. Until such proof is offered, we must concede that God's chosen nation was shown the proper way while the rest of the world had to work it out for themselves. Also, if you consider what circumcision was for - it was a coventant between God and the nation of Israel - no other nation practiced circumcision prior to this commandment - so one has to wonder how anyone else worked it out prior to the Levitical Law's being written.

It was a rhetorical question... so, I'll ask it again. If there was no Heaven would you still believe? Seems to me like believeing in God in hopes of going to paradise is pretty selfish, no? Is that like saying that you believe in a cure that a doctor has for your illness is pretty selfish? No, not really. You're greatful to the doctor for providing the cure and putting your faith in the doctor to administer that cureg. I don't consider that being selfish - I consider that placing your faith in the right person for the right reason. We should be setting our sights on heavenly things. God offers us life eternal in Heaven in exchange for our repentance and acceptance of Him and our offering up of worship and praise. Sounds fair to me.

You still make the assumption that it's about YOU. That goes for al persons here on WB - yourself included. Hmmm... No link here... Still no link... Sure you posted a link? The quotes don't lie... Anyway - You did post a follow-up message (too long to quote) on page 5 (using default settings) of this forum - no links there either - just some information about a Dr. Lardner. But this came after my request for proof. Who needs to be careful about the way they write? ANYHOO... All this "He Said, She Said" is getting old. I'm done with it. I'll "discuss" the topic of this forum, but I won't play into your (TheProcess) finger pointing game any further.

What happened to the zombies then? The Bible does not go into any further detail, therefore, anything beyond what is already written is mere conjecture.

SoulGrind, are you going to respond to this? This article (which is has anti-Biblical overtones vs a neutral tone) suggests that pre-scientific societies often have useful procedural medical knowledge. However, while this may be true, it does not state which societies, and the Biblical claim does not state any form of "trial and error" on behalf of the Hebrew/Israial nation. Therefore, we must give the authors of the Biblical account the benefit of the doubt (as we would in any other form of literature) until sufficient evidence is presented one way or another.

WhySoBlind - My original post (on the apologetics forum) wasn't strictly for my friend, but the entire population of the "Big Island" of Hawaii. My friend was just an additional focal point. Regardless, in light of new information, I have recently heard that while the earthquake was only a 6.3 in magnitude, there was the potential for the upsetting of the local volcano - which was a major concern to the Hawaiian population - thankfully, the volcano did not erupt. I think the point stands that regardless of the situation, prayer, whether it is with the intent of "asking" or of "praise", we must be cognitive of whom we are speaking to; the Almighty King of Kings and we must be humble and thankful with reverence to His glory and grace. I know that you say, "that Christians have a habit of calling every stroke of good fortune an 'answer' to prayer." You may be right that not all good fortune is a result of an immediate prayer, but it may be the result of previous prayers long forgotten (by us) or prayers from others on our behalf. Plus, God sees our needs before we ever do. If He chooses to bless us by meeting those needs regardless of whether we asked for them or not makes no difference, we need to present ourselves to the Lord in humility and grace and praise Him for the blessings He has poured out upon us. Even in the example of a "dollar raise" - For the person who is in need of that dollar raise, this is an answer to prayer. It may be insignificant to those of us without such a need, but it's not any less signifact to those who are in need. And to downplay their need by saying it is nothing more than "dumb luck" is disheartening to the believer and it tramples the Word of God under one's feet - for now we are robbing God of His glory. Whether we ask little or much from God shouldn't matter - we should ALWAYS be greatful and humble before God for such answers - even if in reality, it truly is by pure chance. So be thankful to God for giving you "dumb luck." I am of the firm belief that the events that took place in Hawaii (surrounding the earthquake) were being directed by God Almighty, for there were too many "what if's" that could have happened. No one was killed. Very few injuries (if any) were reported. The damage was contained to man made structures, and the volcano did not erupt. Whether you believe this is by chance or not - I am not here to judge. I just feel that we should praise God that nothing more severe happened. And in the end, to me, this is an answer to my (and several other people) prayers for the overall safety of the island, as well as my friend. But honestly, I don't care to rehash the discussion from the apologetics forum. I wanted to discuss with others in a "believers" forum the power of prayer. I'd love to hear how God has worked in everyone's lives and answered (or not answered) prayer in everyone's best interest. Hearing such testimony is comforting and uplifting, especially in a world where this is so much negativity and repression of faith and prayer. To God be the Glory!

I had posted in the apologetics forum awhile back about the power of prayer - of course the athiests (and a few Christians) chimed in on both sides of the coin. While many disagree about the practical use of prayer, many more do agree. I for one agree that prayer is as necessary as breathing. My mother sent this to me in an email this morning. I thought I'd share... Paul Harvey Program Content/Kansas Senate Opening Prayer This is an interesting prayer given in Kansas at the opening session of their Senate. It seems prayer still upsets some people. When Minister Joe Wright was asked to open the new session of the Kansas Senate, everyone was expecting the usual generalities, but this is what they heard: "Heavenly Father, we come before you today to ask your forgiveness and to seek your direction and guidance. We know Your Word says, 'Woe to those who call evil good,' but that is exactly what we have done. We have lost our spiritual equilibrium and reversed our values. We have exploited the poor and called it the lottery. We have rewarded laziness and called it welfare. We have killed our unborn and called it choice. We have shot abortionists and called it justifiable. We have negle cted to discipline our children and called it building self esteem. We have abused power and called it politics. We have coveted our neighbor's possessions and called it ambition. We have polluted the air with profanity and pornography and called it freedom of _expression. We have ridiculed the time-honored values of our forefathers and called it enlightenment. Search us, Oh, God, and know our hearts today; cleanse us from every sin and set us free. Amen!" The response was immediate. A number of legislators walked out during the prayer in protest! In 6 short weeks, Central Christian Church, where Rev. Wright is pastor, logged more than 5,000 phone calls with only 47 of those calls responding negatively. The church is now receiving international requests for copies of this prayer from India, Africa and Korea. Commentator Paul Harvey aired this prayer on his radio program, "The Rest of the Story," and received a larger response to this program than any other he has ever aired. With the Lord's help , may this prayer sweep over our nation and wholeheartedly become our desire so that we again can be called "one nation under God." Who says their isn't power in prayer? Glory to God on High! AMEN!

You're right, I did say that God is love - just a parent loves their child. But redeemed098 is correct when pointing out the fires of Hell, just as a loving parent warns a child that the stove is hot.

Some food for thought... What are the chances that one man could fulfill even eight of the prophecies of the Messiah? In 1969, a mathematician named Peter W. Stoner gave his students eight prophecies that were fullfilled by Christ and asked the students to figure the probability of their all being fullfilled. The prophecies he chose stated that the Messiah would... Be born in Bethlehem (Prophecy: Micah 5:2 - Fullfilled: Matthew 2:1-6; Luke 2:4-7) Be preceded by a messenger (Prophecy: Isaiah 40:3-5; Malachi 3:1 - Fullfilled: Matthew 3:1; Mark 1:1-3; Luke 3:1-6) Ride on a donkey (Prophecy: Zechariah 9:9 - Fullfilled: Matthew 21:6-11; Luke 19:28; John 12:12-15) Be betrayed by a friend (Prophecy: Psalm 41:9; 55:12-14 - Fullfilled: Matthew 26:20-25, 47-50; Luke 22:3-6; John 13:18-30) Be betrayed for thirty pieces of silver (Prophecy: Zechariah 11:12-13 - Fullfilled: Matthew 26:14-16; 27:3-10) Be betrayed for money used to purchase the potter's field (Prophecy: Zechariah 11:12-13 - Fullfilled: Matthew 26:14-16; 27:3-10) Be silent as a lamb (Prophecy: Isaiah 53:7 - Fullfilled: Matthew 27:12-14; Mark 15:3-5) Have his hands and feet pierced (Prophecy: Psalm 22:16; Zechariah 12:10 - Fullfilled: Luke 24:39; John 19:18, 34-37; 20:20-28) The class came up with a whopping number: the combined probability of one person's fullfilling eight of the Old Testament prophesies would be one chance in 1E+17. (Yes, that's a one followed by seventeen zeros.) And since the initial finding by Stoner's students, his grandson Don has updated the number to 1E+18, since the world's population is now larger. See http://www.geocities.com/stonerdon/science_speaks.html Inside the Mysteries of the Bible The American Bible Society Copyright 2006 There are (at least) 17 prophecies documenting the coming Messiah. There are 17 fullfillments of prophecy documented that show Jesus Christ as the prophesied Messiah. There are other prophecies related to events pertaining to the crucifixion that have also been fullfilled.

You seem to be telling lies about me, or talking rubbish at least. I ask that you produce a quote from me where I say those words, or something like them. Where did I use the argument, "I know, because I know"? Telling a lie would invite the notion that I stated something about you that is untrue - I did no such thing. I never stated that "you" use the argument 'I know because I know', and I do appologize if you took it that way. If you re-read what I stated, I said: That is a general statement. However, in light of the fact that you stated it was a forgery without providing proof at that time does not bode well for credibility. When you state something like "It's a forgery" - you are stating something as if you have knowledge of such a thing. Therefore, to be taken seriously, I highly recommend that you qualify your statements in a manner that produces evidence (which I see you finally did in one of your latest posts). To do this, a statement similar to the following is helpful: EXAMPLE: "I know something is a forgery BECAUSE... Proof A, Proof B, etc.etc. - ref to Proof A, ref to Proof B." For more information, do a google search on writing essays in the MLA Format - not only will you structure your arguments more succinctly, but they will carry more weight and provide you with a stronger position and establish your credibility. Just trying to be helpful here - not condemning or bashing. And if you don't believe me, feel free to discuss such things with any High School or Entry-Level College English instructor. Best regards,

Don't you just love Christians? It seems SoulGrind wants to use FORGERY as evidence, and if I object to this then apparently I am "swine". Well what do you want from me? That I should simply accept everything that I am told by Christians, no matter how dubious? How arrogant an attitude is that? PROVE that it is forgery - I have yet to hear one piece of evidence - just some nonsense about "I know, beause I know." That's not evidence, that's opinion - and not even a good one at that.

Anyone who does not believe (have faith in) in Christ is therefore not a CHRISTian. First you say you have to be anointed, but then you say being anointed by God is not the criteria. So who (do you think) does the anointing, oh mage of the anointer's cup? Ah - I see clearly now. All that archaeological evidence that proves the existance towns, cultures, people, times, places - it's all made up and false. Shame on those pesky archaeologists for trying to trick us with nonsense. And oh - those historians - they keep trying to tell us what happened - like they know! They weren't there. And what do we know about astronomy - we can't even put a man on mars (yet) - let alone tell anything about stars (such as the one that the wise men followed and the shepherds saw). And those Doctors - what do they know! All those cures, and medicines, and evidence that back up Biblical accounts (example of circumcizing babies on the 8th with relevance to Vitamin K). Must have been coincidence, or the doctors are in all a part of this Christian drama! My cup of sarcasm drippeth over! Back to a secular, non-Christian account - Josephus wrote of the risen Christ... As for the other "zombies" - well, if one person (Christ) was written about by a secular source, I guess the others are within the realm of possibility. If you're trying to change my point of view, or what I "know" from both science and scripture, you're doing a terrible job at it.