antz

antz--- Now really, what we are dealing with is your agenda to divide according to your poorly interpreted pontifications on the subject at hand. Yes! I'm so glad someone else knows this! I thought I was alone! you are not alone in this board... it is me most of the time...

antz--- Now really, what we are dealing with is your agenda to divide according to your poorly interpreted pontifications on the subject at hand. I am not interpreting anything.. look at my post and most of it is supported by the Biblical verses... it is you who keeps on posting your interpretaions... Mine is not interpretation but Biblical...

so now you agree that not all disobedience is an act of will??? Nope! But you agree that willful sins are deadly after we received the knowledge of the truth as what the Bible say??? Hebrews 10:26For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Antz - David was forgiven for his sin against Uriah, despite having to still pay suffer consequences (discipline). He deserved death, but was spared. Please don't try to say that wasn't a willful act! It was... But due to God's justice saying... Tit 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Did you ever find David commiting the same sin after God's dicipline??? NO!! That is not his choice!!! How dare you speak to Peter like that... given the choice, Peter will never choose to do that... look at what Peter chose to do... Luk 22:33 And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death. 34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me. You see that... that is what Peter have chosen in his heart... to be with Jesus till death... but out of circumstances he was forced to deny Jesus... HOW DARE YOU ACUSED PETER OF WILLINGLY DENYING JESUS!!! and now you call me heretic... look in the mirror... Look at the Topic... if you will believe that all disobedience is an act of will knowing that willfully committing sin is deadly, that would mean all sins are deadly. this would be out of the Biblical principle because John clearly stated that there are deadly and non deadly sins. It is bizarre to those who are inclined in believing INTERPRETATIONS rather than beleiving IN WHAT IS WRITTEN. and besides, I know that we (real Christians) are bizarre... because for some we are peculiar people

This is what i am telling you... you just ask yourself and your heart will testify against your beliefs in OSAS... a Christian HAVE TO DO GOOD after the salvation from sins. Have to OBEY... What will you OBEY??? 1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: What is involve in the commandments??? Col 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; You see that... the problem with you is you read the verses and explain it for yourselves... Just ask and let the Bible answer!!! Then live with it... your heart said it already... YOU HAVE TO OBEY after you are saved. It is... you said it already... you have to obey after your salvation... HAVE TO... if you don't obey... what will happen... let us allow the Bible to answer... not me.. not you... THE BIBLE... Heb 6:4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. You see that... once you are saved and instead of obeying you fell away... you cannot be renewed again... meaning ONCE SAVED IS NOT ALWAYS SAVED!!! That is what the Bible said clearly... I don't know if you will hear it... Now... what is one way to keep yourself from falling away while waiting for Christ??? again... let the Bible answer... Same verse i posted above... 1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: If you are referring to Romans 1:1 onwards here... again... I agree THAT THE WORKS HAS NO PART IN SALVATION FROM SINS... but in SALVATION FROM HELL... it is clearly stated in the Bible and even your heart believes it... YOU HVE TO OBEY!!! We are not holding on to Jesus while we were not yet saved... but after you are saved from your sins, do we still not hold on to Jesus??? again.. let the Bible nswer... 1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, IF ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. You see that... which ye are saved IF ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, You maybe right is saying we are not a co savior of Christ but don't mock Him... HE CLEANSE YOU AS A GIFT NOT BY YOUR DEEDS... but after He cleanse you, you have to obey and keep yourself clean. really... not pre-requisite??? again let us give way to what the Bible say... let us read the verse again... Luk 9:23 And he said to them all, IF any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. you see that... IF any man will come after me... IF you will come after Him, deny yourself, take up your cross BELIEVE in what JESUS has said, not your own interpretation... IF you believe, then you will have eternal life... as it is written... John 5:24 Truly, truly I tell you, the one who hears my word and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life and does not come under judgment, but has passed from death to life. see that... YOU HAVE TO HEAR HIS WORDS.... and according to HIM... IF any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. I have no idea what LAW is that but as long as I am not violating God's Law... who cares... Let me post this first and continue answering the rest of your post...

Doesnt matter, you still sinned willfully. You cannot blame it on someone else. Even when someone does something we don't like, and it offends us, we still have to take responsibility for it. No one else is accountable for our sins. You sinned willfully, and you better get resaved, or you are going to hell according to your twisted "theology." I am taking responsibility on it that, that is why I admit it... You remember Peter... he cut a guards ear, denied Jesus for 3 times... yet it is not considered willful act because he was dragged by the circumstances to do it... it was a sin... but it was forgiven... How about posting it as another topic so not to dragged this thread out of topic... the topic here is... Is all disobedience an act of will?

That is correct Jade, after you received the TRUTH, as a Christian you SHOULD not willfully sin. But that does not mean you are sinless. Christian still sins but not willfully ....... It will fall on deadly sin if you willfully disobey God after you received the truth. And yet you wilfully sinned in here yesterday by taunting, and you had admited to that. You admited to doing it willfully. By your own admission, you wilfully sinned. Since you did that, there is no more hope for you, according to your beliefs, according to your interpretation of this verse. Hebrews 10:26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins, 27but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries. According to your beliefs, you have lost salvation with no hope of getting it back. didn't you read my post??? i was dragged because somebody puke at my post. i didn't mean to taunt around coz that is not my purpose here... realizing that and not doing it again means you did not willfully did it. but if you realize your sin and still willfully do it again and again without any other influencing factor but your own will, then the verse that you are using will be applied... Tit 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; That is why OSAS is a very dangerous belief for me... it gives false hope that one can commit sins again and again hoping that Christ and The Father is merciful to a willfull sinner. But as the Bible said, that is not the case. GOD will forgive any transgression a man had committed while he was outside the TRUTH but once he accepted Jesus, has been cleansed, has been purified (as a Gift to those who will accept Jesus, not by works Eph 2:8...)... then you have to keep his commandments until Jesus comes back... read... 1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

so now you agree that not all disobedience is an act of will???

That is correct Jade, after you received the TRUTH, as a Christian you SHOULD not willfully sin. But that does not mean you are sinless. Christian still sins but not willfully that is why John said, if you see your brother sin (not the deadly sin) pray for him. This is the reason why I disagree that ALL disobedience is an act of will. It will fall on deadly sin if you willfully disobey God after you received the truth.

16-17For instance, if we see a Christian believer sinning (clearly I'm not talking about those who make a practice of sin in a way that is "fatal," leading to eternal death), we ask for God's help and he gladly gives it, gives life to the sinner whose sin is not fatal. There is such a thing as a fatal sin, and I'm not urging you to pray about that. Everything we do wrong is sin, but not all sin is fatal. we ask for God's help and he gladly gives it, gives life to the sinner whose sin is not fatal. This tells me that all sin is life-preventing. Correct all sin is bad and can be life-preventing, but this clearly shows that there is two types of sin. However, the sin not leadly to death will eventually lead to a deadly sin if one does get away from that sin. Let us put our conversation in verses... I agree with pax that there are two type of sin and that make the OSAS belief not valid for me... as stated in the verse, always first remember who is speaking and to whom the words are addressed... as you can see... I John 5:16If anyone sees his brother committing a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray that God would give him life. This applies to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not telling you to pray about that. John is writing to his fellow Christians... that if they see their brother committing non deadly sin, he should pray... but not the the deadly sin... now, sometimes the very reason we are being misguided is because you put your interpretation on the passages that you are reading... why not let the Bible decide... which is deadly and which is not deadly... ask the Bible... Now let us ask the Bible... what is deadly sin??? Hebrews 10:26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins, 27but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries. You see, if we sin willfully AFTER... this is the very reason why i don't agree that all disobedience are an act of will because disobedience is sin and doing it willfully will fall into a deadly sin... Now... looking back to the verse... who is capable of committing deadly sins??? ]after that we have received the knowledge of the truth... those who have received the knowledge of truth...

that is just your own conclusion... the Bible clearly state that if you will refuse God then He will... (let's just read it) Proverbs 1:24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;... did you read that... he called... ye refused... now what will happen after you refused.... Proverbs 1:27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. 28Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me: 29For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD: read it... don't incorporate your own interpretation because Bible interpret itself... ONLY GOD CAN INTERPRET HIS WORDS... all you have to do is read... WHY??? BECAUSE IT IS ALREADY WRITTEN!!!

you did not answer my english lesson....

then how can you say it is willfully done if you don't know it? is this applicable to Christians??? if yes, what verse??? What verse??? What verse???

You have a good point here and your two cases is one of my basis as well... You just keep on viewing this and you will see a Biblical basis of what you just said... next time when you say it, it wouldn't be just what you think... But it would be according to the Bible Have a nice one and May God Bless you...

Can I willfully do something sinful without realizing it? Yes. hhmmmnnn.... Why are you changing my question??? Are you trying to hide something??? c'mon... don't hide the TRUTH... answer the question... I was correcting your language! Did you mean something other than what I took you to mean? If so, please clarify. then this might be an english lesson for a while and i don't mind being the student here because you knows english better than I do so i will ask this like a student... for you what is the difference between not knowing it and not realiszing it??? what is wrong with my question??? why you change it???

WHOEVER EDIT THIS TOPIC... THANKS A LOT!!!

Can I willfully do something sinful without realizing it? Yes. hhmmmnnn.... Why are you changing my question??? Are you trying to hide something??? c'mon... don't hide the TRUTH... answer the question...

OK... When you said All disobedience is an act of will, did you mean all sins that people are committing is willfully being done by the person committing the sin??? Yes. Good... Next question... Can you willfully do something that you don't know???

OK... When you said All disobedience is an act of will, did you mean all sins that people are committing is willfully being done by the person committing the sin???

Can you clarify first my question at the beginning to avoid confussion?

Just to clarify so there is no room for confussion and because i am not that good in english... Do you mean all sins that the people is commiting is willfully being done by the person committing the sin??? Thanks,

You know this is out of topic so what i will do is create another topic for this in order to make things in order... i am sorry but i should have told this from my previous post...

What verse???

OHH... I see... So you have to be OBEDIENCE to His words... This is great... What will happen if instead of being obedient one becomes willfully disobedient??? And what is the proof that one is being obedient??? What happens is that Holy Spirit convicts us, of our disobedience, and in some cases, the Lord will have take disciplinary measures with His children, like a good Father would. He will never leave us nor forsake us. When we stray, He calls us back to Himself. He loves us and those He loves, He disciplines. Take note my question very carefully.... What will happen if instead of being obedient one becomes willfully disobedient??? WILLFULLY DISOBEYING GOD!!! And you forgot to answer the other question... And what is the proof that one is being obedient???

You know.. from the above post.. you are on the right track... because those that you have said is written in the scriptures... but can't you read it??? after that you have been saved from sins, after that you have been cleased by the blood, but the next one is not entirely correct because it shouldn't be past tense, it should be present progressive because from the day you receive the salvation from sin you have to walk daily with that cross... read... Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. be careful not to conclude thing very early... you have to consider the whole wisdom of the scriptures... ones you are justified, cleansed, legally declared right by the virtue of the finished work of Christ on the cross... you have to take up your cross DAILY, and follow Him Where did you get that belief??? it is clearly written... James 1:15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. If you don't want the sin to have power over you, follow what Jesus has said... take up your cross daily This is also on the right start but due to negligence it is going out of the truth... Look... It is true after being born again you are new creation.. it is written... II Corinthians 5:17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. But you have to be specific on the salvation you are talking... rephrasing what you have said... Salvation from sin is not based upon what you do because it is a gift to those who wants to accept Jesus. That salvation will cause an inner transformation in you because there is a new path that you should walk in... read again the verse... Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. The Bible said it is not YOU... but HE WHO HEARS HIS WORDS... if you want to be one of them... TAKE THIS OPPURTUNITY TO THINK THINGS THROUGH... HEAR WHAT JESUS IS SAYING!!! TAKE UP YOUR CROSS DAILY...