kenod

Personally, I would not "unchristianize" anyone because of their understanding of prophecy. And I would not regard my own understanding as infallible.

Thanks, mate, I can handle difference of opinions ... its the "other" that makes me go

I hope this throws some light on what the last trump is. Thanks, Eric. I am inclined to see the trumpets of the OT as types or shadows of the "trumpets" in the NT. The trumpets in the OT were used to gather the people together. In Revelation they represent a Voice speaking: Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. The seven trumpets of Revelation were not revealed to Paul. They are announcements of judgement. I regard the

What is "the last trump"?

This may sound shocking but yes. The first time was no good since the person was not saved according to scripture. 1John 2:19 I think you may be right in some cases, but I don't think it applies to mine. I always believed, but I turned away from living a godly life when I allowed myself to be overcome by personal circumstances. David "backslid" but he never lost his faith in God.

Possibly ... but I am willing to disuss it without rancour

Eagles is plural; body is singular. The body is the eagles' food, just as the Word of God is the believers' food. We "eat" the flesh of Jesus Christ by believing what the Bible teaches us about Him. The Word of God is our spiritual food (Luke 4:4). The "dead bodies (plural) that have been destroyed at Jesus' coming" are in Rev 19:17 - that's when ALL the fowls gather together. The words "taken" and "left" in Luke 17:34-36 do not mean destruction. This is the rapture. It is a world wide event (day & night). Rev 19 is a localised event. The reference to Noah and Lot in Luke 17 indicate the immorailty and ungodliness of the times. They show that God's people will be taken to a place of refuge before the judgment falls. The ark was "lift up above the earth" (Gen 7:17). The angels of God physically took hold of Lot and his family, and instructed them to go up into a mountain (Gen 19:16-17). The Revelation uses the word eagle three times: Rev 4:7, 8:13, 12:14 (8:13 is translated "angel" in KJV). The NT always uses eagle/s to refer to the godly. There is a well accepted word for vultures in Greek. Elsewhere the Bible uses birds or fowls. Still doesn't make it right for Christians though, does it? Hopefully, I have been able to disagree and state my understanding without making any disparaging comments about your understanding. Jesus said the truth is hidden from the wise and prudent. A young child can believe the Bible, but he/she cannot interpret the Bible. God set teachers in the Church for that purpose. And the Holy Spirit is given to guide us into all truth (John 16:13). I am not a teacher, but I believe I have been taught by one who is. .

It's a discussion forum, Anne, so why not jump in anyway. It's ok for Christians to disagree, you know.

The word "guess" is very condescending, Dennis, and not conducive to discusson. Whether we are right or wrong, let's try to show each other some respect. The Greek word for eagles (aetos - singular; aetoi - plural) is used five times in the NT. The context, as I see it, is the disciples asking where will the ones be taken from. Jesus has told them it is a world wide occurrence, and He now tells them "wherever there are believers feeding on the Word of God". The battle of Armageddon is a localised event and involves ALL the birds, not just the "eagles".

"ALL the birds" ... good point!

I believe it is figurative, Dennis. Look up the the word used for eagles, and then check out where it is used elsewhere in the NT. It always refers to those who worship God. I believe the ones "taken" are the saints, who are taken up in the rapture. Refer to my last post for the meaning of the word "taken". The word carcase is not rotting carrion, it is fresh meat ("strong meat" Paul says), food for the eagles. It cannot be the battle of Armageddon because Jesus' words indicate that it is a world wide event (night and day). Anyway, that's the way I see it.

Mat 24:39-40 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. It is interesting to note that the words "took" (v39) and "taken" (v40) do not come from the same Greek word. They are completely different. The first includes the meaning of destroyed, the second does not. The second word (taken) comes from the same word which is used for take (Mat 1:20), receive (John 14:3), and taken (Acts 1:2) Mat 1:20 Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. Acts 1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: Where the food is, the eagles will be gathered together. Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Psa 103:5 Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's. Isa 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles;

Do you see the comings mentioned in Mat 24:27 and Mat 24:30 as the same event? I know many people do. Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. I see verse 27 as the rapture (John 14:3, 1 Thes 4:16-17, Rev 19:9), and I see verse 30 as the second coming when Jesus physically returns to the earth to rule and reign (2 Thes 2:8, Rev 1:7, Rev 19:11-16). The "coming" in v27 is as the lightning, which I understand as a sudden, unexpected catching away of the saints. At the "coming" in v30, He "cometh with clouds" and "every eye shall see Him". So, according to my understanding, Jesus actually comes three times: 1. He comes to redeem His Bride - to die for our sins 2. He comes to catch His Bride away - the rapture 3. He comes with His Bride to rule and reign on the earth I know it is a matter of some disagreement, but as long as we are loving and serving the Lord Jesus with all our heart and soul, I believe He will take care of us all. .

Luke 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. Jesus said: "I am the light of the world". But only a minority will see the Light. There are three groups that will not see the Light of the "lightning" - those who are asleep (spiritually asleep) - those who are blind (spiritually blind) - those who are dead (spiritually dead). .

The "Good News" is that we can be clean right now. "if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. (1 John 1:7)

Malachi Martin's books are interesting because he was a Jesuit priest in Rome before being released from his vows. I looked at "The Keys Of This Blood" which among other things, investigates the pedophilia among the church hierachy. "Forbidding to marry" (1 Tim 4:3) has come at a high price. We need to be careful to distinguish between the system, which has been functioning as a political oganisation since the time of Constantine, and the genuine believers who are ignorant of the history of the Vatican. We also need to see that the political organisation of any denomination perpetuates the failings of the "mother". But we can be confident that even the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church of Jesus Christ - the universal body of believers who are born again by the Spirit of God. .

You don't think the computer (internet) already does evil? I suggest you read 2 Thessalonians 2 1 John 2:18-27 Rvelation 13 Revelation 17 and put your ideas to the Test.

You need to be able to support your ideas with Scriptural evidence. This means putting all the evidence together to reach a conclusion. That computers could be used by the antichrist (beast) is quite possible, I think.

I believe you are right. The antichrist spirit existed in John's day. It is spiritual, and it is deceptive (close to the true).

I don't see the RCC as anti-christian in the sense that they do not deny that Jesus Christ is divine. The question we have to ask is: does the teaching of the RCC, and other denominations for that matter, contain false teaching along with the true. God's Church (the universal body of believers) will only believe what is true. Lukewarm, is a mixture of hot and cold (right and wrong) and God will reject that. (Rev 3:16) There is a difference between the people and the system. Look at the history of the papacy and you see the effects of the system being imposed on the people. Nevertheless, many people in the RCC are genuine Christians, and serve Jesus Christ, not the church.

And the Jews devoutly and sincerely worshipped Jehovah, but they rejected the Word of God. In the Garden of Eden there was the Tree of the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL. Every denomination has many genuine Christian believers, including the RCC. Jesus said "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Remember that the "serpent" is very "subtil" (cunning). We need to look for something that will be able to deceive. Those whose loyalty is to a denominational system rather than to Jesus Christ will be deceived.

The Bible says wisdom and understanding are needed to recognize the number. I believe that means spiritual wisdom, not education. I feel that it will be something the "common people" can work out for themselves. Your name or my name might add up to 666 in Latin, or Hebrew, or some other system, but do we match all the other criteria mentioned in 2 Thes 2, Rev 13 & Rev 17? It is interesting to note that the "man of sin" (2 Thes 2) will be revealed before his actual coming: 2Thes 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed (apokalupto), the son of perdition; 2Thes 2:9 Even him, whose coming (parousia) is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Yes, I see it rather like that too. The right hand and forehead are symbolic of a deeper meaning.

I enjoyed reading through the posts, and particularly liked the comment: "I expect to see the Garden of Eden, just as God intended it for us." I've always thought that the beauties of the earth that we are familiar with, will be what we see, but in their perfection. I have a mother, a brother and a son who I know for certain are waiting for me on the other side. I expect to see them as they would be in their prime, say 20-25 in earth years, although they are not yet in their resurrected, glorified bodies. What I am interested in is what people expect to see when they see God. I believe I will see what the disciples saw after Jesus rose from the dead. Does anyone believe they will see the Father and the Holy Spirit as separate beings to the Lord Jesus Christ? Ken