Atonement

Can you elaborate what you mean by "securing the blessing of God" as opposed to what's already ours? If it's already ours, isn't it secure through the Blood of Christ Jesus?

It's my daily prayer

Good stuff here

I see the confusion; sleep is just another way of saying dead or have died. The dead are fully conscience unless you have Scripture that tells us something different?

Daniel 12 1 “At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever. Greetings to you in the love of Jesus The word "sleep" cited in this passage is found in Strong's #3624 (fig. to die).

Greetings to you in the love of Jesus 1 Samuel 28 - Is the story of Saul using a witch to bring Samuel up from the dead in order to get guidance from him (verse 15). Samuel being dead, remembered what he told Saul when he was alive and as well told Saul that the next day he (Saul) and his sons would join him (Samuel) in death. We can see in this story of the Bible, the dead coming back and having remembrance, thus having a conscious (able to communicate with the living). God Bless

Yep, he stated and I quote As to say, I am being illogical or my logic is fuzzy (my position)... So I got out my thesaurus and quoted every Synonym and related word with fuzzy and illogical.. So your point is? If he can not handle the heat with words, then maybe the man should not use them in the first place to defend his position?? Ahh, but I did not see any of you quote his .. Yet I said the exact same thing he did, but just used every meaning in the sentence. WOW how some people just don't get it.. Exactly! Exactly!

Yep, he stated and I quote As to say, I am being illogical or my logic is fuzzy (my position)... So I got out my thesaurus and quoted every Synonym and related word with fuzzy and illogical.. So your point is? If he can not handle the heat with words, then maybe the man should not use them in the first place to defend his position?? Ahh, but I did not see any of you quote his .. Yet I said the exact same thing he did, but just used every meaning in the sentence. WOW how some people just don't get it..

Wow.. Another opinion based on what? What knowledge can you bring to this discussion? And if you know anything about Jewish history, they did not accept Christ as their Savior, nor do they today, yes, some have been converted to Christianity, but the majority of the Jews deny Christ as their Messiah, that is simple Biblical knowledge.. Thus this is why there will be a Great Tribulation period in the land of Israel. How long have you been studding prophecy? Not long enough we can see You have not studied Daniel have you? You might have read it. But forgot to study it. There will be a third temple built and animal sacrifice will be a implemented. Dan 8:12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. Dan 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary (temple) and the host to be trodden under foot? Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary (temple) of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. What is this abomination of desolation? The phrase abomination of desolation refers to Matthew 24:15: So when you see standing in the holy place (the third temple) 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel - let the reader understand. This Scripture is referring to Daniel 9:27, He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. You want to know a little history? Alright here is some history.. In 167 B.C., a Greek ruler by the name of Antiochus Epiphanes set up an altar to Zeus over the altar of burnt offerings in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem. He also sacrificed a pig on the altar in the temple in Jerusalem. This event is known as the abomination of desolation. In Matthew 24:15, Jesus was speaking some 200 years after the abomination of desolation described above had occurred. So, Jesus must have been prophesying that some time in the future another abomination of desolation would occur in a Jewish temple in Jerusalem. As I stated before, give a man enough time and they dig themselves into a hole. I see your Biblical knowledge needs improvement before you try to rebuttal my position. I'll run circles around you.. You know very little about prophecy and I see why it's not that important to you.. ...none of which answers the question, what is the objective contextual point of control for supposing that Daniel (or any other prophet, for that matter) is speaking of matters that will not be fulfilled for millenia, instead of decades? There is no basis for that supposition and you are still arguing retroactively. All of which serves to illustrate and answer the OP's question as to why we're divided on eschatology; speaking for myself, I refuse to accept fuzzy, illogical thinking as a valid technique for defining doctrine. Agreed.. It's only fuzzy to you and your position. I, like you, also dislike fuzzy, illogical, barnyard, backdoor, harebrained, imbecilic, uninformed, asinine, nonsensical, obtuse thinking to prophecy (and any other words you would like to add to it). Now you think Daniel will be fulfilled during the millennia, LOL.. My on My.. You have A LOT of studding to do before you come here and expect anyone who studies prophecy to accept your view. Plain and Simple

Wow.. Another opinion based on what? What knowledge can you bring to this discussion? And if you know anything about Jewish history, they did not accept Christ as their Savior, nor do they today, yes, some have been converted to Christianity, but the majority of the Jews deny Christ as their Messiah, that is simple Biblical knowledge.. Thus this is why there will be a Great Tribulation period in the land of Israel. How long have you been studding prophecy? Not long enough we can see You have not studied Daniel have you? You might have read it. But forgot to study it. There will be a third temple built and animal sacrifice will be a implemented. Dan 8:12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. Dan 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary (temple) and the host to be trodden under foot? Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary (temple) of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. What is this abomination of desolation? The phrase abomination of desolation refers to Matthew 24:15: So when you see standing in the holy place (the third temple) 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel - let the reader understand. This Scripture is referring to Daniel 9:27, He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. You want to know a little history? Alright here is some history.. In 167 B.C., a Greek ruler by the name of Antiochus Epiphanes set up an altar to Zeus over the altar of burnt offerings in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem. He also sacrificed a pig on the altar in the temple in Jerusalem. This event is known as the abomination of desolation. In Matthew 24:15, Jesus was speaking some 200 years after the abomination of desolation described above had occurred. So, Jesus must have been prophesying that some time in the future another abomination of desolation would occur in a Jewish temple in Jerusalem. As I stated before, give a man enough time and they dig themselves into a hole. I see your Biblical knowledge needs improvement before you try to rebuttal my position. I'll run circles around you.. You know very little about prophecy and I see why it's not that important to you..

Again, read your facts please. Thanks for your opinion, it means a lot to me, but even if I was off by a 1,000 prophecies let's say.. That's still over 9,000 prophecies in the Bible and still over a 1/3 of the Bible would be Bible prophecy. There are 10,285 prophecies in the Bible so either way.. Facts are facts and opinions are opinions.. Unless you can some how prove facts wrong.. Then I'm all ears.. It is virtually impossible for anyone to make 10 straight predictions, 2000 years into the future would you agree with this statement? There is only one chance in 8 x 10 to the 63rd power, or 80 with 63 zeros after it that such a thing could be done. If such a set of predictions existed, it would have to be the Word of God right? So let's prove it, 1) The Jewish people would be scattered worldwide; yet Israel would become a nation again after a long time and at a time the Bible calls the "latter days"-ref Isa 66:8; Mic 5:3; Ezek 38:8. Against what appeared to be impossible odds, this prophecy has been fulfilled. It happened as predicted on May 14, 1948 after about 2500 years. That’s 1 out of 1 2) Israel shall be brought forth in one day, at once-ref Isa 66:8. Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That’s 2 out of 2. 3) Israel would be brought forth (or reborn) "out of the nations"-Ezek 38:8. Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That’s 3 out of 3. 4) Israel must regain the city of Jerusalem-Joel 2:32; Isa 28:14; Ezek 22:19. This happened just as predicted in 1967. That’s 4 out of 4. 5) There would be weapons that could destroy the world-Mk 13:20; Rev 6:8; Rev 9:18; Zech 14:8,12. Incredibly, this prophecy was written in the days of spears and arrows, yet today it is true. That’s 5 out of 5. 6) The Gospel must be published in all the world-Mk 13:10. This seemingly impossible prophecy was written when there was no printing press or television, but today it is true. That's 6 out of 6. 7) In the "latter days," when Israel was once again a nation, there would be a great military power to the extreme north of Israel in the land of Magog (which is modern-day Russia)-Ezek 38:2-4,8,15,16. Incredible. That’s 7 out of 7. 8) There would be a nation to the far east of Israel, to the end of the earth. This nation would have an army of 200 million. This is astounding. How could the Bible have told the location of a nation and given such a huge figure regarding the size of its army nearly 2000 years ago? China has boasted that they could field an army of this exact figure. That’s 8 out of 8. 9) There would be an economic alliance of the nations of the Old Roman Empire. It would have a military capability. This is an exact description of the European Union today (the EU), which has already adopted the one-currency system for many of their member nations Dan 2:44. That’s 9 out of 9 10) The Christian church at the time of the end would be lukewarm, neither cold nor hot for Jesus. Prophecy fulfilled. That’s 10 out of 10. And to think that is just about Israel.. This does not include all the prophecy about Christ's first arrival, His 2nd arrival, the rebuilding of the third temple, the Wrath of God etc. Surley it's a remarkable discussion and worth taking note. Good luck my friend God Bless you

To elaborate.. 1) The coming of the Lord is a truth of such importance that it is mentioned 318 times in the 260 chapters of the NT (on an average, once every 25 verses). 2) The only subject mentioned more frequently than the second coming is the subject of salvation 3) Paul mentioned the communion ordinance only twice in his 13 epistles and baptism only 13 times, but he mentions the return of our Lord 50 times 4) Here are the books on prophecy Genesis Joshua and Judges 1 & 2 Kings Isaiah Jeremiah Daniel Ezekiel Amos Obadiah Jonah Zechariah Haggai Malachi Matthew Mark Luke John 1 & 2 Thessalonians Romans Jude Revelation

It is certainly not God's intention for us to be so busy parsing out what might happen at the end of time that we have neither the energy or the courage to spread the gospel. Let me ask this: if our position on eschatology doesn't determine our eternal destination, why is it "huge and important?" The short answer is, it is not. I submit that endlessly debating eschatology is in part an avoidance behavior that wastes time, God's time. Only one thing determines our eternal destination. Does that mean that everything else is not important? I think our Lord's return IS huge and important. The book of Revelation promises a reward for those who learn and understand the book. I doubt that it wastes "God's time." I don't think that spreading the Gospel and trying to understand the end times are mutually exclusive. 3/4 of the New Testament is Bible Prophecy about the end times and over 1/2 of the OT is Bible prophecy about Christ first coming and the end times. So this is a very important subject matter. But I think Christians need to be more alert in how they respond to people. I agree, I don't believe it was or is a waste of God's time. Check your figures. The percentage of prophecy devoted to the end of time is much lower (Less than 5%). The epistles, which make up most of the New Testament deal with task theology or answering immediate questions which arose during the early days of the church. It is this sort of unfounded claim, a lack of knowledge of the subject matter, that leads to such wild speculation such as pre-trib/rapture. I agree that knowledge of the book of Revelation is important, but no more so than any other book of the Bible. We will agree to disagree. I will also ask that you recheck your figures and then check them again and afterwards check them one last time. You just proved your Bibical knowledge to me.. All it takes is time and man will hurt themselves... I'm sorry but it was not a trap to set yourself in

It is certainly not God's intention for us to be so busy parsing out what might happen at the end of time that we have neither the energy or the courage to spread the gospel. Let me ask this: if our position on eschatology doesn't determine our eternal destination, why is it "huge and important?" The short answer is, it is not. I submit that endlessly debating eschatology is in part an avoidance behavior that wastes time, God's time. Only one thing determines our eternal destination. Does that mean that everything else is not important? I think our Lord's return IS huge and important. The book of Revelation promises a reward for those who learn and understand the book. I doubt that it wastes "God's time." I don't think that spreading the Gospel and trying to understand the end times are mutually exclusive. 3/4 of the New Testament is Bible Prophecy about the end times and over 1/2 of the OT is Bible prophecy about Christ first coming and the end times. So this is a very important subject matter. But I think Christians need to be more alert in how they respond to people. I agree, I don't believe it was or is a waste of God's time.

Why? I never intended for this thread to turn into a debate, but to answer your question, my small brain understands the pre-trib view and IMHO is consistent with God's character as revealed to us in the Bible. Listen, the best thing to do is ignore the questions that are derailing this thread. This is not meant to be about another rapture thread and the possibilities thereof; but a question why there is so much atomicity behind these discussions; which is a valid question because many people try to stand on a soap box and preach their view's before studding Scriptures long enough to make a accurate assertion. But this discussion like many others (i.e baptism, tithing, once saved always saved) etc. these will always cause much adverse conflict within the Christian community. And the sad thing is, most Christians do not seem to be Christian as they answer. They have so much anger, pride or selfishness to accept they might be wrong or attempt to accept another theory. So one must take these topics with a grain of salt and look at the spirit behind the posts. Understanding that lowering oneself to be "right" by degrating, insulting, backbiting other Christians looks worse on them even if they are right. And if they are right, who would want to accept that by how that person conducted themself when answering it in truth?

Okay a few things. 1) You quoted Philippians 2:15, Jer. 31; 33 and yet these have nothing to do with the Jews as being labled as "generation". Why not also quote: Psa 12:7, Psa 24:6, Psa 71:18, Psa 95:10, Deu 1:35, Gen 7:1. Because none of it would make much sense to. 2) Huh? Genetic ordinances 3) 'genea' in Greek has the following meanings a. fathered, birth, nativity b. the several ranks of natural descent, a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character especially in a bad sense, a perverse nation c. the whole multitude of men living at the same time d. an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years 4) So again it's a position you have that you believe this, and that's fine. But it has little to do with the OP. Not even at a observation stance. Would it make sense about the five comings of Christ as this thread suggest.

Okay so let's say that he is squeezing Preterism between the cracks.. So what? It's his thread correct? He is the OP right? So if the man created a thread and wants to discuss Preterism, the man has every right too. What does your first responce have to do with anything that he wrote about? He's talking about the five comings of Jesus, but you respond by stating what you believe (your theory, your position) correct? I provided another theory to add, and you did not know what that view was. I'm not trying to take anything serious on here, but I'm asking you to defend your first responce to him. Again, SO WHAT if he is using Preterism.. Hatcha! cha! cha! Actually, the feller has every right to be a preterism. I was merely disagreeing. But I didn't mean to get in a schoolyard tussle. My mammy always told me to be nice! But serious. I think Matt. 24 is talking about Christ's future second advent. Not something that happened 2,000 years ago. "This generation" means "The Jews." Or so I believe! Peace & Health, Brian And the valid question remains.. Prove "This generation" means the Jews? Or at least back it with other Scripture. By just stating you believe this theory with out sharing your view when asked why you believe it, is not obeying the Word of God which you are quoting.. 1Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: You used, Jer 2:31 O generation, see ye the word of the LORD. Have I been a wilderness unto Israel? a land of darkness? wherefore say my people, We are lords; we will come no more unto thee? Which is talking about the generation that was in the wilderness for 40yrs. This does not say the generation is the Jews.. So that position is already flawed with just one Scripture quoted which does not mean that anyway..

Okay so let's say that he is squeezing Preterism between the cracks.. So what? It's his thread correct? He is the OP right? So if the man created a thread and wants to discuss Preterism, the man has every right too. What does your first responce have to do with anything that he wrote about? He's talking about the five comings of Jesus, but you respond by stating what you believe (your theory, your position) correct? I provided another theory to add, and you did not know what that view was. I'm not trying to take anything serious on here, but I'm asking you to defend your first responce to him. Again, SO WHAT if he is using Preterism..

Interesting. I wonder though, why Christ spoke about the fig tree blossoming before He said this generation would not pass. What is the fig tree? Cleary it's Israel correct, which is the apple of God's eye? Zec 2:8. So what is interesting in your rebuttal is that if Israel blossoms as mentioned by Christ in Luke 21. Then my questions is how could Israel blossom in 70 AD? When in fact she was destroyed? Let me take this a little step further, when in the last 2000 years did Israel blossom? Was that not until May 14th 1948? Which is also Bible prophecy being fulfilled concering the valley of dry bones coming back to life? Eze 37.. the Bible also speaks about the rebuilding of a third temple correct? What will the Jews be doing in this third temple? Animal sacrifices correct? Dan 9:27; Dan 11:31; Dan 12:11. So it appears that when Christ returns the Jews would be making daily sacrifices. Which is also a reason why their is a Great Tribulation against Israel for not accepting her Messiah in the first place.. At least this is how I understand prophecy. I don't care about the pre-trib, mid- trib or post-trib per se. The fact is you could die today and you need to be ready today. But in general Christ is coming back to fulfill all prophecy. Hey, Unfortunately, I don't know much about that view. I interpret the "fig tree budding" as meaning "all these signs taking place." Christ was talking about the tribulations that would fall upon the Jewish people. There is supposedly a gathering back to the city by Antichrist, who will rebuild their temple. Then after he's gained power, he'll sit in the temple boasting himself that he is God. When the Jewish nation repents during the tribulation, Christ will return from heaven, & destroy the enemies. Then the Millennium! Peace and Health, Brian P.S.-- I think Ezekiel 37 means "The first resurrection." That is the "hope of Israel" that Paul is talking about. Well that is okay, we don't know everything about prophecy correct? But I do know about the statements you have rebuttal the OP on, so then I added my rebuttal to see how you would answer them in line with Scripture. You stated that you "don't know much about that view". With the answer you gave me, I will let lie. But I believe that your first rebuttal should probably be disregarded from the topic because it's just speculation from your position correct? I'm not putting words in your mouth, I just want this clarified.

Interesting. I wonder though, why Christ spoke about the fig tree blossoming before He said this generation would not pass. What is the fig tree? Cleary it's Israel correct, which is the apple of God's eye? Zec 2:8. So what is interesting in your rebuttal is that if Israel blossoms as mentioned by Christ in Luke 21. Then my questions is how could Israel blossom in 70 AD? When in fact she was destroyed? Let me take this a little step further, when in the last 2000 years did Israel blossom? Was that not until May 14th 1948? Which is also Bible prophecy being fulfilled concering the valley of dry bones coming back to life? Eze 37.. the Bible also speaks about the rebuilding of a third temple correct? What will the Jews be doing in this third temple? Animal sacrifices correct? Dan 9:27; Dan 11:31; Dan 12:11. So it appears that when Christ returns the Jews would be making daily sacrifices. Which is also a reason why their is a Great Tribulation against Israel for not accepting her Messiah in the first place.. At least this is how I understand prophecy. I don't care about the pre-trib, mid- trib or post-trib per se. The fact is you could die today and you need to be ready today. But in general Christ is coming back to fulfill all prophecy.

So true.. Very true my friend.. Check out these lyrics from White Cross Because of Jesus I have peace of mind Because of Jesus I'm no longer blind Because of Jesus old things have passed away Because of Jesus you can start again today Still I don't understand his love the love he has for me I just know one simple fact he died to set me free When I see that I have fallen I just go to him Because Jesus is the only one who can take away my sin Because of Jesus I have peace of mind Because of Jesus I'm no longer blind Because of Jesus old things have passed away Because of Jesus you can start again today There were times I thought that he had left me on my own I have learned how much he loves me and now, now I know That I am like a jewel to him and he watches over me And he is so concerned about me that he will never leave Because of Jesus my old life is gone Because of Jesus instead of being weak I'm strong Because of Jesus all things have been made new Because of Jesus I have come to know the Truth And the music is just awesome behind it Check it out here: You can listen to them all.. Check out this song.. Because of Jesus White Cross - Because of Jesus

You should really knockoff the accusations guy. You have grounds whatsoever to make a statement like that. Your jealuosy is showing. Oh I have all right to say that.. It's blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.. I don't care if you agree with it or not.. Truth is turth, and facts are facts and there is no gray area in between. Maybe you should read your Bible a little more about this topic before you start to blasphemy as well.. Just a thought

Thank you, I think it's Nelly who sings that one song.. "It's getting hot in here so take off all your clothes" Not a Christian message at all. ALL music Satan has been corrupted in some form or another. Okay, so then the crux of your argument really hinges on lyrical content, not musical format, right? So I should be able to simply change the words of the three songs above, leave in everything else, and it will be something which glorifies God? "Don cha wish your Savior was hot like mine. Don cha wish your Savior was a healer like mine..." "Hallelujah it's raining manna It's raining manna, Hallelujah It's raining manna..." "It's getting hot in here so open up your Bible..." Those are now Christian songs because we've changed the lyrics... Now you're getting the idea.. How one band changed the AC/DC song "Highway to Hell" to "Highway to Heaven" And there are many request for that song.. It's great!! You should check it out.. Amen I was being facetious. Lyrics are only 1/2 of the equation. That's why it's leaven. Same reason you blasphemy the holy spirit?

Thank you, I think it's Nelly who sings that one song.. "It's getting hot in here so take off all your clothes" Not a Christian message at all. ALL music Satan has been corrupted in some form or another. Okay, so then the crux of your argument really hinges on lyrical content, not musical format, right? So I should be able to simply change the words of the three songs above, leave in everything else, and it will be something which glorifies God? "Don cha wish your Savior was hot like mine. Don cha wish your Savior was a healer like mine..." "Hallelujah it's raining manna It's raining manna, Hallelujah It's raining manna..." "It's getting hot in here so open up your Bible..." Those are now Christian songs because we've changed the lyrics... Now you're getting the idea.. How one band changed the AC/DC song "Highway to Hell" to "Highway to Heaven" And there are many request for that song.. It's great!! You should check it out.. Amen

You will rebut my position? Haven't you been doing that since I first responded? Actually what I wrote was "I don't believe that mingling worldly elements with Godly worship constitutes Godly worship." I stand firmly behind that statement. Actually the root is "pharmakon," for "drug or spell-giving potion." Both "Pharmakeus" and "Pharmakeia" come from this root. The "Pharmakeus" is the practititioner of "Pharmakeia," (also its variant "Pharmakos") which is the area of witchcraft (so translated in Gal. 5:20 in the KJV) associated with the fixing and administering of potions. Yeah, I'm just a little familiar with this subject. Some believers actually attempt to connect modern pharmacists with purveyors of witchcraft, which is an argument not without its merits, especially in today's world where millions of people are taking drugs their bodies don't actually need. Nevertheless, there is no single Scripture or passage of Scripture which prevents me from taking a drug as a part of worshiping God. And getting back to your original argument, I should be able to do so, because it's simply taking something that God created and using it "for His glory." That is the inherent flaw in your argument, friend. I am perfectly free to ingest any plant that God created, however you and I both know that although I have such freedom, doing so is not prudent, and can actually lead to sin. I understood what you wrote about the internet, and I responded that with "the internet was first invented by university professors who wanted to access information and communicate more effectively." I would have thought that implied that it was first used by university professors, not the black market. Here is a good summary of the internet's history: http://www.isoc.org/internet/history/cerf.shtml I'm not sure what you mean about "boxing your god," so I'll not respond to the comment. The internet as a subject does not compare with the issue of Heavy Metal and the faith. I didn't say that at all. Where did I ever write that God didn't ordain music? I didn't ignore the verse actually, I just didn't respond to it, because it was cited incorrectly. "Because in Him all things were created, in the heavens and on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or lordships or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through Him and unto Him." (Col. 1:16) The "all things" in this verses refers to all things created by Him and through Him. It does not refer to things created by man. Actually, if you want to get technical, God did not create music, it was Jubal in Genesis 4 that is attributed with the creation of music. Some have claimed that the creation of music was the result of the fall, and so it has no place in true worship. Of course I don't belong to that camp. The point is, you can't claim that heavy metal music is blessed and ordained by God simply because a verse in the Bible says that all things were created in Him (Christ). By such reasoning, as I stated before, we could say that pornography, gambling, and a host of other things considered evil, or things that are used for evil were equally created by God and should therefore have God's blessings upon them. So your application of this verse as justification for Heavy Metal music in Christianity is really erroneous. Then you misunderstand my position. I think that to prove that I am blaspheming against the Holy Spirit you would need to prove that "Christian heavy Metal" is a work of the Holy Spirit. Having a doctorate degree in theology you should know that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit refers specifically to slandering the works of the Holy Spirit, as when the Lord cast out a demon by the power of the Spirit in Matthew 12. I really am shocked that a man of your supposed education would misapply the Word of God in such a manner, frankly. Accusing me of the unforgivable sin as a means of defending your own position is just about equivalent to the Catholic anathematizing a heretic, isn't it? By what authority do accuse me of such blasphemy? What I was referring to was your consistency for jumping to conclusions and making straw men from my arguments. I was merely asking you to take my position at face-value rather than making something from it that it is not. I have been a member of Worthy since about 2002 and participated in various online discussion forums long before my joining here. yet since I have been here I have participated in many debates on various subjects which include aspects of what we are talking about here. I also happen to be familiar with the various debate tactics that people will use in order to "win the debate," even though my goal has never really been to win anything. Your knowlege cleary far seeds mine.. Sorry I must not continue in this argument with you.. You seem to have all the clues and understanding in Greek, and music and all areas. Wow some of us actually went to school for for Greek,Latin and Hebrew.. *shurgs* God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble. James 4:6. You win..