Old Timer

What I can

OC, we do not agree on Ephesians 4. I gave my reasoning in post #65 above. If you do not see my point as stated there, then so be it. Col. 2:15? I fail to see how that speaks to this subject. Christ defeated Satan by His sacrifice and resurrection. Col. 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; You mention 1 Cor. 15:4-8 which says: 1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. This is speaking of those that saw Christ AFTER He was resurrected. Notice it says that some of these have since died, fallen asleep. He was see by Paul on the road to Damascus. You say,

Hello, Butero, I can take up Lazarus and the rich man at another time but I will conclude my discussion of the Transfiguration here. This event is described in Matthew 16:27 to 17:13, Luke 9:27 to 9:36 and Mark 9:1 to 9:10. In all three of these narratives Jesus says as in Luke,

Hello, OC. I think I fully grasp what you are saying in your last post. The view that you state is held by many but you must also be aware that even biblical scholars that do not believe in soul sleep would take issue with your interpretation of some of the verses you mention, especially Ephesians 4. Your last paragraph comes as a bit of a surprise when you say,

Ok, I see what you mean. Sorry if I misunderstood you. With reference to my post #53: Christ was dead in the grave for three days and nights. During that time His spirit returned to God and was safely kept until it was returned to Christ

It

Please don

Certainly the spirit returns to God who gave it. Christ committed His spirit to the Father on the cross. It is the condition of that spirit that is in question.

Butero, Swordfish, lol. Yes, really, I did know the definition of the word

That's right, they did not satisfy me. Did you read my reply above? I'm still waiting for the answer to my final question: What does the word

Christians should be looking for the Lord's return and not be concerned about "going to heaven." 1Thes. 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? Tit. 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Butero, thank you for taking the time and effort to supply answers to my questions. I found most folk are unwilling to do so, just quoting one verse, generally 2 Cor. 5:8. Your answers, one at a time: The verses you supplied to show that the dead are judged AFTER Christ returns is my point, as you said. But then to go on to a

It sure would be easier to ignore what I see in scripture and believe, like almost everyone else, the dead go to heaven and enjoy themselves in the presence of Christ. BUT

I repeat: The Mt. of Transfiguration was a look given into the future after the resurrection. Luke 9:23 even mentions the disciples were asleep before they saw the transfiguration. Before they witnessed the transfiguration they are told that some would not die until they see Christ coming. If this was not the event they were to see before they died then tell me when did they see Christ's 2nd coming?

Butero, if any doctrine is not found in scripture it is one of

I have tried my best to explain what the word

Butero, I inserted text into the verse to make my position clear. I have no intention to alter the verse. I took issue with Openly Curious because he suggested moving the comma. I am perfectly satisfied with the way the verse reads in Luke leaving the comma where it is or removing the comma altogether. Christ was in the grave, dead, for three days and nights. He committed His spirit to the Father. The

Yes, I do believe in what is commenly called soul sleep. No, I am not a member of the SDA church and I attend a local Bible Church on Sunday. Almost all members of this church do NOT believe in soul sleep. I have engaged in a Soapbox Debate defending this position and have an open invitation to anyone who wishes to debate the issue. This position was held by many Christians since the time of Christ and I feel that "going to heaven" distracts from the Blessed Hope of Titus, the 2nd coming of our Lord. William Tyndale said, "And ye, in putting the departed souls in heaven, hell and purgatory, destroy the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul prove the resurrection." I partake in many threads whenever I see "strange" beliefs intruding upon our Blessed Hope because of the non-bibical idea of "going to heaven."

PowerInTruth, I realize I am giving ammunition to those that disagree with me as I write this post but as I have taken a position on this verse, Luke 23:43 in this thread, I will make a brief reply to your post. I agree with your first paragraph. Especially,

Yes, Fallaci refereed to herself as a Christian atheist and I do not remembering reading anything from her that explicitly defined that description. I think she meant she was an atheist who believed in the morals, ethics and values of a Judean-Christian society. I hope her last book, Oriana Fallaci interviews Herself, The Apocalypse is shortly translated into English.

ROME -- An Italian journalist and self-described atheist who died last month has left most of her books and notes to a pontifical university in Rome because of her admiration for Pope Benedict XVI, a school official said yesterday. Oriana Fallaci had described the pontiff as an ally in her campaign to rally Christians in Europe against what she saw as a Muslim war against the West. As she battled breast cancer last year, she had a private audience with Benedict, who was elected only a few months earlier, at the papal summer residence in Castel Gandolfo. In one of her final interviews, Fallaci told The Wall Street Journal: "I am an atheist, and if an atheist and a pope think the same things, there must be something true." Benedict was surprised by the gift of the books, which dated back as far as the 17th century and included volumes about the formation of modern-day Italy, American history, philosophy, and theology, said Monsignor Rino Fisichella, rector of the Pontifical Lateranense University in Rome. "The veneration that she had for you, Holy Father, persuaded her to make this donation, which will be known as the Oriana Fallaci Archives," Fisichella said during a ceremony at the university yesterday to announce the gift of the books. Benedict greeted Fallaci's nephew and his family during the ceremony, according to the Italian news agency ANSA. After decades of conducting major interviews and covering wars as a correspondent for two of Italy's largest dailies, Fallaci concentrated her famous passion and energy in her last years on vehement attacks against a Muslim world she judged to be the enemy of Western civilization. Absent from the publishing scene for nearly a decade, Fallaci burst back into the spotlight after the Sept. 11 attacks in the United States with a series of blistering essays in which she argued that Muslims were carrying out a struggle against the Christian West. At the time of her death, she was on trial in northern Italy, accused of defaming Islam in her 2004 book, "The Strength of Reason." In it she argued that Europe had sold its soul to what she called an Islamic invasion. Fallaci had also taken the Catholic Church to task for being what she considered too weak before the Muslim world, despite her praise of Benedict. She died three days after the pope delivered a speech at a German university in which he quoted a Byzantine emperor who characterized some of the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad as "evil and inhuman," particularly "his command to spread by the sword the faith." The speech sparked anger in the Muslim world, prompting Benedict to express regrets and say the words did not reflect his personal opinion. [url=http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2006/10/22/bequest_from_fallaci_who_assailed_muslims_is_called_papal_tribute/]

I agree! And in the future... Zec. 8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you. Zec. 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.