Jesus Admirer

I want to point out that John 10:28,29 are dependent on verse 27 before them. Jesus said his sheep who follow him, which means if his sheep follow him, then no man can pluck them out of his hand, but the condidtion is if they follow him. Jesus also said to pick up our cross and follow him, which I believe sheds light on John 10:28,29. I believe there's enough scripture which imply we can lose salvation, if we turn back into a sinful life style, or make sin a way of life. (Iniquity) Rev. chapters 2 and 3 would imply that very strongly. But I don't believe a Christian will lose their salvation immediately after sinning one time, especially in the case of a baby Christian. I believe God will have much grace not willing that any should perish. Nevertheless, God might prefer more from a mature Christian who knows better. I'm not sure at which point a Christian might lose salvation, but for a Christian to live continually in sin, and sin become an iniquity without repentence, then their salvation could be in jepordy. God hates sin, and will judge unrepentive sin in all I understand about scriptures.

I'm not going to post on this thread anymore, because I have to agree with Cobalt1959, that I do get rather irritated. One thing Cobalt1959 said to me is also true, and that is nobody will listen to me, if my irritation is showing. So what I'm going to do is give a link to a website of a very peacful Baptist Preacher with a degree in Divinity, who gives a good account of the PreWrath Rapture theory, so all can learn it from him if you're interested. Please know that this Minister doesn't even know me, so I hope you will except him as a peaceful preacher apart from my irritations with pretribulation rapture defenders. I also want to add that this Minister has received his degrees from a Baptist Seminary, but the PreWrath Rapture Doctrine isn't a Baptist Doctrine. I first read a book about PreWrath from a Minister who had been an Assembly Of God Minister for over 30 years, but was denounced by the Assembly of God denomination, because he changed his mind about a Pretribulation rapture, and then started preaching the PreWrath Rapture. But now this Baptist Minister Dr. Elbert D. Charpie also preaches PreWrath, which isn't a Baptist or Assemblies of God Doctrine. Because both the Baptist and Assembly Of God Denominations will generally preach a Pretribulation Rapture Doctrine. There will also be other books named on his website written by others who share the PreWrath Doctrine. Here is an insert from his website about this Minister: Dr. Elbert D. Charpie lives in Johnson City, Tennessee where he has pastored Grace Baptist Church for over ten years. He has studied end time events for several years and developed "In View of the End" about five years ago. Dr. Charpie earned his Master of Divinity and Doctor of Ministry degrees from New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary. Here's the link to his website that will give the PreWrath Rapture view. http://prewrathministries.org/index.html

Please notice my quote above from myself. Apparently you missed that, because now you claim I aimed all I said at you, but that wasn't true. I said in my post that my comments were aimed at a whole sect of people, which you also didn't notice. But know this: My correspondence with Christopher John started, when he attacked an article I wrote on my own website. If you will go back to my first post on this thread, then you will see I only gave links to my article, which is on my own website. (Which means I never said anything then)It was Christipoher John who attacked it, before I ever intended to have any interaction with him. I have been responding to his comments every since. It was first Christopher John who accuse me of False teaching, before I ever said a word to him. So I wrote this, just to set the record straight. You can go back and read it all yourself. (No need to take my word for it.) So Christopher John first attacked me, and I responded. It's just that in your first post to us, you directed at both of us, what he started. I will agree that he very politely attacked me, but he did attack me first, as most pretribers will. I never said your comments were unfounded. I even said you gave a great scripture. But I do think you are analizing this whole situation wrong, so for peace sake I'll say this. Tell pretribers I won't, if they don't. But when they do, then I will defend myself. I also stated that I was irritated, but that irritation has built up through the years, as one pretriber after another has degraded any Christian who disagreed with them. So again! I'm referring to them as a whole, and not to you. I also admitted that I do get irritated in my last post, but also stated who I was irritated at. (I never said it was you) So how you came up with the idea that I was aiming all at you is beyond me, because I made it very clear that most my irritation was directed elsewheres. As far as who should believe me or not is irrelevent. It's really about who will believe scripture that conflicts with the pretribulation rapture doctrine. I'm not the only one who opposes them. Other preachers have very peacefully approached them, yet were still called heretics by them. So sometimes it really doesn't matter how one approaches them, if they already believe a lie. I started out on this thread very peacefully giving two links to my article. But I was falsely accused of false teaching, without me saying a word to anyone here. (That's where it all started) Go back and read it yourself.

Sorry, But I was trying to plead my case, but Christopher John keeps attacking everything I write, so I was just responding to him. But as far as pushing scriptures: I would that all Christians would back up their statements with scriptures, and I really don't see what problem you have with that. Would you like to see Christian Preaching without any scripture foundation? I guess I come from the old school, where they use to say: "Show me chapter and verse" Theology based apart from scripture is only that of man's own head. One might form there opinions, but are they Biblically based? Sometimes things can get heated in hot debate, so I think it's a cheap shot from you to attack two Christians who are in hot debate. I also think you should take a look at your own words above, and notice you're doing the same thing. Yes! Let's consider your words: "Busy Pushing Scripture" That seems sort of sarcastic to me. Great. Duke it out. But here is some scripture for you: 2 Timothy 2:22-25 22 Flee the evil desires of youth, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24 And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25 Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, Great Scripture, but I'm not trying to duke it out with anyone. I just tried to plead my case and was attacked for it. Then you also attacked me for responding to that. I don't honestly believe defending my faith is duking it out. I also don't believe responding to one who is attacking everything I write is duking it out either. I'm believe it's more properly called defending myself and position. Perhaps you should write Tim Lahaye and accuse him of duking it out when he attacks PreWrath defenders calling them heretics. While you're at it, then go to the whole pretribulation rapture crowd and tell all their church leaders that they were duking it out when they falsely accused PreWrath defenders as heretics, and then throw PreWrath defenders out of their denominations. Marvin Rosenthal was a Missionary Pastor who preached Pretribulation Rapture for 30 years as a Pastor, but then he was called a heretic by his denomination because he changed his mind and started preaching a Prewrath rapture, because he seen the fallacy in the pretribulation rapture theory. It's not a matter of me trying to duke it out with anyone, but I'm getting awful sick and tired of Pretribulaton rapture defenders attacking and calling preWrath defenders heretics and false teachers, when PreWrath defenders base their position on much Biblical scripture, which you call pushing, while the Pretribers base theirs on blind speculation adding words to scriptures, which the scriptures never said in the first place. It's my sincere intention to respond to the Blind and wrongful Judgements, which Pretribulation defenders have accused PreWrath Defenders of without cause or any scripture to do it with. It seems to be O.K. for main stream pretribulation rapture preachers to attack anyone who disagrees with them in any way they please, but then we who oppose them are jumped on by people such as yourself for just merely turning the tables on them. Pretribers have had their say for over 150 years, and now it's time Christians challenge their fallacy with scriptural truth, which you call pushing scripture. But I call it using God's Word to correct their fallacy. Bottom Line: Call it what you want, but I always put up my dukes to defend myself whenever someone attacks me. But if you have a problem with it, then I suggest you start approaching the whole body of Pretribulation rapture defenders, and share your peace scriptures with them, because they start throwing stones everytime anyone preaches scripture which is contrary to their unscriptural man made Pretribulation Rapture theory. Let's see: According to them we are heretics, false teachers, and troublemakers because we challenge their fallacy with scripture. (that means we are accuse of bringing strife into the body of Christ because we show scriptures that contradict their lie.) Do I get offended when they do this? Absolutely! Because they're taring at the credibility, integrity, and spirituality of anyone who disagrees with their dcctrine, as if their doctrine holds authority over God's Word that contradicts it. I know one such person with those attributes. (His name is Satan) I want to finish by saying that Christopher John has not gone that far on this thread, so I wasn't exactly referring to him, when I speak about pretribulation rapture defenders as a whole. But even Christopher John himself made indications he was holding back from sarcasm. (Yet he did accuse me of false teaching with no evidence for his false accusations.) It's true that the majority of the Church believes in a pretribulation rapture, so that theory has become one of the main strean status quo doctrines in the Church. It's also true that the main Stream Church will label anyone a heretic who disagrees with it. (Sorry! But I might also be responding to several Books I have been reading from Pretribulatioin Rapture defenders blasting PreWrath Preachers of heresy, and then seeing them defend their own pretrib theories with nothing.) It really ittitates me, and I admit it. I just said that, so you know all my words aren't just directed at you, but my words are directed at a whole sect of people who seem to discredit anyone who quotes scriptures that are contradictory to their beliefs. Their thinking is: The Church says it, so it must be true, and most of them don't even know why they believe it, except that their Pastor said so. Many times I have heard them say: "But my Pastor says" Of Course that's after I show them 20 scriptures which contradict their Pastor. But then they say. 'Well" My Pastor knows more than you" I guess that means their Pastor knows more than the scriprtures I quoted to them. But I don't get irritated with them, because I realize they have been deceived by false doctrine taught in the church. (I do encourage them to study on their own.) But what really irritates me is when their elders in the church will defend a doctrine which has no Biblical foundation, by adding their own words to scriptures, and then labeling anyone a heretic, who shows scriptures that plainly contadict their false doctrines. The sad thing is: All these gullible church members, who haven't studied for themselves, who fall prey to this false teaching in the church, because they have so much faith in their Pastors, who were probably brainwashed with the false doctrine themselves. (Which means they are ignorantly wrong.) Bottom Line: Yes! It irritates me much! I would think it would also concern you, if false doctrine is being preached in the Church. You aren't one of those who will stand peacefully on the side, while lies are preached in your church. Are you? There's an old saying that goes: All good men have to do for evil to prevail: Is peacefully do nothing! The point is: Sometimes it requires conflict to defend the faith.

Sorry, But I was trying to plead my case, but Christopher John keeps attacking everything I write, so I was just responding to him. But as far as pushing scriptures: I would that all Christians would back up their statements with scriptures, and I really don't see what problem you have with that. Would you like to see Christian Preaching without any scripture foundation? I guess I come from the old school, where they use to say: "Show me chapter and verse" Theology based apart from scripture is only that of man's own head. One might form there opinions, but are they Biblically based? Sometimes things can get heated in hot debate, so I think it's a cheap shot from you to attack two Christians who are in hot debate. I also think you should take a look at your own words above, and notice you're doing the same thing. Yes! Let's consider your words: "Busy Pushing Scripture" That seems sort of sarcastic to me.

Most likely be destroyed????... have you actually read anything other than 1Thessalonians and Isaiah 26: 20,21?... I'll hold off on the sarcasm. Again there's that incorrect attachment to Isaiah 26:20,21 so you can toss that out the window as far as referencing it for use towards rapture doctrine, boy it's gonna take a while for you to get over this one because you have bet basically your whole theory on Isaiah 26: 20,21, and it doesn't mean what you think it does. Hey...I been there too JA on a few occasions, don't get me worng your 50% right, it does speak of the period of wrath but has nothing to do with Rapture. I fail to see where you make that connection. 2Peter 3:10-12 describes yet again the "Day of Jehovah", the tribulation period and that it comes upon the unbeliever like a thief...they are caught unaware and suddenly it's too late they now have to endure the Tribulation period...what's the biggy? But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? JA, I'll finish off with a few more scriptural quotes concerning the "Faithful Remnant of Israel" and I'll be on my way,to be perfectly honest I don't think you ever submitted your "article" for a peer review and ultimately you have taken a position of pride concerning it but in all honesty it lacks truth, not that you have intentionally went out of your way to mislead anyone but your argument demonstrates what happens when someone is mislead or did not study certain portions of scripture correctly (i.e.; Isaiah 26: 20,21) so basically you are unknowingly pushing a valid theory like pre-wrath with the worng scipture and with the wrong attitude....your trying to prove pre-wrath correct by bashing pre-trib...It just doesn't work that way. So as I stated above the Faithful Remnant scriptural support. Zephania 3:8-13 Proof of the Remnant Isaiah 10: 20-23 This is a key Prophecy which also demonstrates that the people of Israel will lean on the Antichrist before they turn to God. The Protection of the Remnant Isaiah 41: 8-16 and ****************************Isaiah 26: 20-21*********************************** The provisions of the Remnant during the Tribulation period just like God provided in Exodus Isaiah 41:17-20 Don't take it personally, I won't comment on your other post...I don't need lessons in Greek to understand scripture. Peace CJ Christopher John, There are a few things I want you to know about pretribulation defenders, which you don't seem to know. First: It was a Pretriber who first said that 2 Thessalonians 2:7 refered to the Holy Spirit as being the restrainer, and the Holy Spirit would be removed with the Rapture. (It was on the Kenneth Copeland Show. It was one of his guest defending pretribulation rapture. (But I don't beleve in a pretribulation rapture.) Tim Lahaye also said that about 2 Thessalonians 2:7, so it's the pretribers passing that false doctrine around. It would seem like you aren't very aware of the false doctrine coming from pretribers. You don't even see what comes from your own camp. Second: It was a pretribulation rapture defender who first told me that Isaiah 26:20,21 referred to the rapture. He was a Pastor trying to defend the rapture with it. So aparently there are even some pretribulation rapture defenders who will disagree with you about Isaiah 26:20,21. Third: I haven't said anything about the Pretribulation theory that I haven't heard or seen from Pretribers themselves. So it would appear as if you are the one with your own theories even apart from pretribers themselves, because you seem to be completely unaware of what pretribers preach themselves. Fourth: You keep accusing me of preaching falsely, yet you don't give any proof for your statements. You also accused me of building my theory by attacking the Pretribulation rapture theory, which I actually call exposing it for the fallacy it is. Yet I have and will continue to give scripture defending prewrath rapture itself. It would really appear on this thread that it is you, who is trying to defend your case by attacking me. Because I don't see you giving any proof for your own statements. You falsely accuse me with no proof. I haven't seen you give one shred of Biblical evidence on this thread that supports or proves your position in any way. You give a lot of theory with no Bible to back it up. As usual! You just keep on speaking hot puffy air with absolutely no Biblical scripture to back your statements up, except for the added words you add to your scriptures, which is typical of all pretribulation rapture defenders. Now! Instead of just attacking every scripture I have given: When are you going to start defending your own position with scripture that actually says what you say it does. I have been waiting since 1969 for pretribers to do that. Last: You still haven't replied to the scripture I gave from John 6:39,40, where Jesus Himself said he would raise his people up at the last day. (Not seven years before.) It would seem like you conveniently ignore a lot of scripture I have given. I'll give even another one here you have ignored from my article for all to see here, but I'll do it to defend my positon, and also prove to all the false statement from you, that I only speak from Thessalonians and Isaiah. I haven quoted from a lot of places, and you know it. But I want the reader to notice in Daniel 11:45 below that the antichrist is destroyed. But then if you read beyond that into Chapter 12, then you will see that at that time the antichrist is destroyed, then Michael stands up in 12:1, and the resurrection takes place in 12:2. Which means the resurrection takes place after the antichrist has been destroyed. We all know that 1 Thessalonians 4:16 says the dead in Christ shall rise first right before the rapture, or the resurrection will preceed or come before the rapture. But in Daniel 12:2 we see the resurrection coming after the antichrist has been destroyed in 11:45. See where I underline his destriction and later in 12: 2 the resurrection. Daniel 11:35

Continuing with Christopher John, Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. I want to continue challenging scripture, which pretribers give to support the pretribulation rapture theory. You will notice in Revelation 3:10 above, that it says I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation. The hour of temptation is referred as meaning the Great Tribulation which will occur at end times. Pretribers quote this verse as meaning that Jesus Christ will keep them out of the Great Tribulation through a pretribulation rapture. The key words are "keep & from". What did the Lord mean when He said "keep thee from the hour of temptation. Keep from the strongs greek dictionary means: 05083: 5083 τηρεω tereo tay-reh'-o from teros (a watch, perhaps akin to <2334>); ; v AV-keep 57, reserve 8, observe 4, watch 2, preserve 2, keeper 1, hold fast 1; 75 1) to attend to carefully, take care of 1a) to guard 1b) metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is 1c) to observe 1d) to reserve: to undergo something Now we can see from the greek meaning keep, that it means to guard or keep in the state one is in, which means the Lord will guard the spirituality of the Christian, and perhaps preserve the spiritual state of that Christian. (Jesus is the Author and finisher of our faith.) I will comment more below. But first the Greek meaning of the word "from" 01537: 1537 εκ ek ek or εξ ex ex a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; ; prep AV-of 366, from 181, out of 162, by 55, on 34, with 25, misc 98; 921 1) out of, from, by, away from from

Hi Jesus Admirer, I'll begin with your extrapolation of Rev. 20:4-6, however, I will only refer to part one of the post on your website .

I totally agree that the timing of the resurrection is the key to knowing the timing of the rapture. Consider what Jesus said in John 6:39,40, that he would raise them up the last day. (Not 7 years before the last day.) Jesus is definately referring to the resurrection, which will happen the last day. See John 6:39,40 below. John 6:39

I want to share an article I wrote on my wbsite titled: I Don't Believe In A Pretribulation Rapture! I Believe In A PreWrath Rature! I wrote the article as Part One and Part Two, because it wouldn't fit all on one page. Part One http://thelordsplace.bravehost.com/PreWrath.html Part Two http://thelordsplace.bravehost.com/PreWrath2.html

There has been talk on the news lately about some who think they found the remains or tomb of Jesus Christ, but they are just in line with others who believe they also have his tomb. Here's a link to some who believe Jesus traveled to India, and think his tomb was in India. http://www.tombofjesus.com/home.htm Here's a link where they think his tomb is in Japan. http://www.thiaoouba.com/tomb.htm Check out this link: http://www.angelfire.com/journal2/histomb/ But this is the Most likely: http://www.bibleplus.org/discoveries/jesustom... Bottom Line: Much effort is made these days to discredit the resurrection of Jesus Christ, so it appears his resurrection really bothers the skeptics, yet some Christians who believe in his resurrection also claim to have seen his tomb.(But who really knows) I try not to speculate about his tomb. He isn't there anyway. Those who think they have his tomb are starting to sound like a joke! Just a matter of time, when they'll face a resuurrected Jesus face to face. If anyone would do a Google search on the tomb of Jesus Christ, then they might be surprised to see, just how many tombs Jesus is supposibly had. Now he's suppose to have even another one according to the latest news.(Ya Right!)

One thing that needs to definately be politically corrected is the separation of church and state issue. There are some secular organizations that believe the first amendment of the United States Constitution Bill of Rights would suggest that there be separation between Church and State. Here's the first amendment of the Bill of Rights. (U.S. Constitution.) "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people to peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances." Notice that it says (congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion) But also notice that it says or prohibiting the free exercise thereof) Which means congress shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise of one's religion. Yet! There are many who believe in laws that would prohibit freedom of religion in schools and politics.(But above, the constitution forbids laws that would deny the freedom of one to exercise their faith) Also notice it goes on to include freedom of speech, the press, and the right of people to peacefully to assemble.. Since freedom of speech, the press, and right to assemble are included in this first amendment, then Christians have the right to exercise their religion, just as much as the press has their right to write articles, and also people have the right to free speech. (The press has their rights in schools and political affairs, and they defend their right to be involved with government from this first amendment.) But notice that freedom to exercise ones religion includes everywhere the press is allowed to exercise their freedom of press. Both religion and press connected to the same thought in the first amendment. Truth Is: The phrase "separation of church and state" isn't mentioned or exist in the Constitution of The United States of America. It appears in the old Soviet Union's Constitution in Article 52: Religion, it states,

Why I Don't Believe In Evolution I don

The links below are example quotations from websites with free OnLine Books which challenge evolution, but they do have copyrights, so they can't be reproduced for marketing purposes. But they can be copied for teaching or private learning. The following quote is from http://www.halos.com/. (Evidence of a young earth.) Quote: "Etched within Earth's foundation rocks

I'm not a scientist, so I can't speak about design science as well as Creation Scientists might. But I can give a few simple observations which anyone should be able to reason. 1. Design one: Male and Female: Question: How much faith would it take to believe that a puddle of primordial soup eventually grew into living organisms, which adventually evolved into male and female human beings?(The myth & faith of evolutionists) To believe that a puddle of primordial soup would become living cells and organisms would require a leap of faith in the first place, but then for these simple organisms to evolve into complex cells and organisms would require another giant leap of faith, but then to believe these complex organisms divided themselves into male & female organisms, which is required to produce new life would require gigantic leaps of faith, which is what evolution really is based on by many atheistic Scientists who don