Hypathia

I've never heard of it before. Maybe it has more to do with the slowly growing backlash againt the Christocratic movement; the attempt by the evangelical movement to merge church and state?? I think more and more people are starting to become a tad bit concerned with that; jmho.

Most of [maybe even all] of those arguments/points were already discussed/covered and touched on again. There are other posts by other people to address too; the world doesn't revolve around YOU. You write a lot in your posts but for the most part they are lacking in any real content; proposing senarios that are a real "stretch" outside the issue while accuseing others of having only emotional appeals [me in particular though I've provided the most scripture on this topic]. The "are you crazy" comment was just a dumb thing to say before launching into another dumb senario that has no bearing on what this thread is even about. -- I bet people around here put you on "ignore" a lot.....if you behave this way on other threads.

I've replied to your posts; then you start going in circles or going off on a tangent or attempt to thward this thread. Again so the topic itself doesn't get buried in the bull: Conception Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. Ruth 4:13 So Boaz took Ruth, and she was his wife: and when he went in unto her, the LORD gave her conception, and she bare a son. Hosiah 9:11 [As for] Ephraim, their glory shall fly away like a bird, from the birth, and from the womb, and from the conception. Womb Job 31:15 Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb? Psalms 139:13 You made all the delicate, inner parts of my body, and knit them together in my mother's womb. Isaiah 44:2 Thus saith the Lord that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen. Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; Blood Gen 9:4: Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood. Lev 17:11: For the life of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it for you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement, by reason of the life. Lev 17:14: For the life of every creature is the blood of it; therefore I have said to the people of Israel, You shall not eat the blood of any creature, for the life of every creature is its blood; whoever eats it shall be cut off. Deut 12:23 Only be sure that you do not eat the blood; for the blood is the life, and you shall not eat the life with the flesh. 1Sam 26:20: Now therefore, let not my blood fall to the earth away from the presence of the LORD; for the king of Israel has come out to seek my life, like one who hunts a partridge in the mountains. Psalm 72:14: From oppression and violence he redeems their life; and precious is their blood in his sight. Eze 3:18: If I say to the wicked, 'You shall surely die,' and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, in order to save his life, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. Eze 33:5: He heard the sound of the trumpet, and did not take warning; his blood shall be upon himself. But if he had taken warning, he would have saved his life. Jonah 1:14: Therefore they cried to the LORD, "We beseech thee, O LORD, let us not perish for this man's life, and lay not on us innocent blood; for thou, O LORD, hast done as it pleased thee." John 6:53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. Breath Genesis 2:7 then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. Genesis 6:17 For behold, I will bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall die. Genesis 7:15 They went into the ark with Noah, two and two of all flesh in which there was the breath of life. Genesis 7:22 everything on the dry land in whose nostrils was the breath of life died. 1 Kings 17:17 After this the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, became ill; and his illness was so severe that there was no breath left in him. 18: And she said to Eli'jah, "What have you against me, O man of God? You have come to me to bring my sin to remembrance, and to cause the death of my son!" Job 27: 2: "As God lives, who has taken away my right, and the Almighty, who has made my soul bitter; 3: as long as my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils; Job 33:4 The spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life. Psalms 146:4 When his breath departs he returns to his earth; on that very day his plans perish. Psalms 150:6 Let everything that breathes praise the LORD! Praise the LORD! Ecc 3: 19: For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts; for all is vanity. 20: All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21: Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down to the earth? Isaiah 2: 22 Turn away from man in whose nostrils is breath, for of what account is he? Isaiah 42: 5 Thus says God, the LORD, who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread forth the earth and what comes from it, who gives breath to the people upon it and spirit to those who walk in it: Ezekiel 37:5 Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live. 6: And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live; and you shall know that I am the LORD." 7: So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold, a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to its bone. 8: And as I looked, there were sinews on them, and flesh had come upon them, and skin had covered them; but there was no breath in them. [there

Everyone, please ignore the troll and refer back to the scriptures and the links I've provided: Scriptures most easily read on this post Post #2 Many articles pro and con Read, ponder, pray!

Actually it means you're very immature; and once again you demonstrate your overinflated ego.

Rebekah - I was referring to those who are trying to thward embryonic-stem cell research. I wasn't trying to attack you personally at all. Apotho - Your posts have been dripping with EGO, sarcasm, personal attacks, inaccuracies, inappropriate emotional appeals {emotional appeal being something you contantly critisize in others}, and attempts to derail this thread all around. You couldn't debate any issue I think without resorting to these methods and that's not "debate" at all. There's really nothing left to debate anyway. I think we've pretty much covered everything. I'll just end by referring people back to the scriptures and summing up the links I've provided: Scriptures most easily read on this post Post #2 Many articles pro and con Read, ponder, pray!

That's a beautiful emotional appeal there Rebekah. You felt the baby in your womb not a petrie dish. Many of us have felt the flutterings of our unborn children at some point only to have them micarry later. You carried your child for awhile; you didn't give birth the day you conceived. Remember those bible verses I posted: 1) conception 2) womb 3) blood and 4) breath. Keep your eye on the ball here people. When you would rather see microscopic leftover embryos go from the petrie dish into the trash then you are devaluing the lives of the disabled, the afflicted and those in pain; you are saying that those people, those souls, are not worthy of your consideration; that your idealogy is more important to you. btw Rebekah -- I hope your child remains healthy all her life. Many start out healthy but unfortunately they don't always stay that way; and that is when through God's mercy science can help you.

The bible tells us when "life and soul" begins as I've pointed out time and again scripturally. -- The verse you are referring to does not say the punishment for causing a miscarriage was death. The verse says that the punishment for causing a miscarriage was a "fine"; if the woman died then the punishment was death. Your logic is faulty; your negative emotional appeals are miguided and inappropriately applied and your flimsy attempt at misusing one verse is both misleading and dishonest. Evidently YOU have not studied this issue as you should have.

Misguided emotional appeal; empathy misdirected. Practice reading comprehension before commenting on the spelling errors of others. I was referring to God being good, to God helping others just as Jesus did when he spat and rubbed mud on the blind man's eyes to make him see. God works thru people to accomplish much good and we can and should immulate this good behavior through medicine as well as many other areas in life. These microscopic, petrie dish embryos are not people even though they have the potential to become people when all 4 Biblical components are met. The embryos in question are comprised of around 150 cells which stop replicating after about two weeks if not planted in the womb; so just as the Bible says, the womb is a requirement on the journey to life. Directly killing a human being so someone else can live??? That's not what is happening here; these embryos are being destroyed as medical waste every year across this country; they are not being "killed so someone else can live". They're being "killed" because people want a baby or two and not a 20, 30, 40 or more. Your oppostion to stem-cell research will not and has not prevented the destruction of these embryos and it won't in the future; therefore, the only human beings you may be taking part in killing are those who might have their lives saved, their illnesses cured or their organs replaced with a perfect DNA match to their own body.

While that would be more consistent where this particular issue is concerned it also opens up a "can of worms" in other areas. Are we "playing God" when we get open-heart surgery? When we get a flu shot; chemotherapy, immunizations, etc? Is it "playing God" when we treat any illness or injuries; OR is it "immulating God"? I think immulating God in order to help people live longer and healthier lives is a good thing. Perhaps when people are beyond help yet we try to preseve a "living corpse" is when we cross the line both spiritually and ethically and it turns into "playing God"; jmho.

Yes. I don't see how basing ethics on the physical world makes it unravel. If there is more to man than his physicality then basing ethics on just the physical aspect of man is ignoring the spiritual aspect of man. You kill the body AND the spirit when you kill an embryo...thus you have killed human life. You can't believe it's okay to kill an embryo or a young baby and turn around and believe in a soul. The ideas are mutually exclusive. You kill the spirit and the body of REAL people when you stand in the way of research that could help them. Scientifically, ethically, biologically and BIBLICALLY there is no reason to stand against embryonic stem-cell research. If you believe in the Bible and you believe in the soul then the Bible should be your reference guide. It's obvious from scripture that "ensoulment" does not occur at the moment of conception. It seems to me that this issue is one of those where science and scripture are in sync with each other; people should stop creating conflicts where none exists and let the scientists get on with their job of saving lives, saving live; babies, children and adults. Those who are attempting to prevent this are part of a "death-cult" despite the political speak. Wake up people. There in lies your misunderstanding. You are correct in that the underlying issue is not the physical state of the human but the spiritual state. Where you have gone astray is trying to interpret the verses on breath into a statement that the soul is imbued when the human takes a breath. There are two areas where you are taking the word out of context. First the Bible talks about Gods breath giving life. This has nothing to do with the human breathing. Human breath and Gods breath are vastly different, you can not equate the two as being the same. Second is you are not taking the phrase "when the breath leaves the body" in historical context. You must understand what the writer means at the time it was written. To hold to your interpretation that the soul arrives when the human takes a breath you must take every verse completely out of context. This is a dangerous thing to do. One that in this case leads people into justifying the murder of innocent humans that indeed have a soul given to them by God. In your statement above you reference "Real" people, implying that the developing pre-born human is not a real person. Many atrocities have happened because some group of people have decided that another group were not "real " humans. This line of thinking leads to unthinkable evil. God Bless, Kansas Dad You are the one who has been lead astray KansasDad. The atrocity here is that real people are suffering and dying and it is primarily due to the unthinkable evil of people like the Pope and James Dobson who do indeed twist the scriptures or omit them altogether to gain support for their "warped" personal wants. I only have a moment here. More articles from another perspective but you always have the Bible to rely on. Jew On First - Many articles on stem-cell research This is a matter of life and death people; please ponder and most of all PRAY! Also this: Most definitely keep that in mind. In context, Jesus was specifically talking about CHILDREN, those who he had around him as the example. The ancients knew what Children were, Jesus knew what Children were.......Jesus never mentioned the "unborn"....especially those that never made it to a womb which was specifically pointed out in scripture as part of the "life" process. The rest was your opinion. If you prevent this research you are harming children and you will be held accountable to HIM. Think about it.

Yes. I don't see how basing ethics on the physical world makes it unravel. If there is more to man than his physicality then basing ethics on just the physical aspect of man is ignoring the spiritual aspect of man. You kill the body AND the spirit when you kill an embryo...thus you have killed human life. You can't believe it's okay to kill an embryo or a young baby and turn around and believe in a soul. The ideas are mutually exclusive. You kill the spirit and the body of REAL people when you stand in the way of research that could help them. Scientifically, ethically, biologically and BIBLICALLY there is no reason to stand against embryonic stem-cell research. If you believe in the Bible and you believe in the soul then the Bible should be your reference guide. It's obvious from scripture that "ensoulment" does not occur at the moment of conception. It seems to me that this issue is one of those where science and scripture are in sync with each other; people should stop creating conflicts where none exists and let the scientists get on with their job of saving lives, saving live; babies, children and adults. Those who are attempting to prevent this are part of a "death-cult" despite the political speak. Wake up people.

The Bible says conception is the first step/ the beginning only; the Bible says the "forming" takes place in the womb...not at the moment of conception; then there are the verses on blood and finally breath (the soul) to take into consideration. The end there is both a desperate, negative, emotional appeal on your part and an accusation to boot. Your position is wrong, inhumane and unbiblical. Further references for other readers: See Post #2 Stem Cell Research in Jewish Law See, you are ADDING to the Bible to support your opinion. The bible does not say it is the beginning ONLY. It does not say that formation does not take place at the moment of conception. We cannot add to scripture. Embryonic Stem Cell Research is a CHAIN of wrongs to make a right! Romans 3:8 prohibits any such action. I am not adding to the bible by saying that. I'm sticking to the scriptures [plural]; I am not adding to but you most certainly are taking away from. The bible doesn't say it is the beginning only; the Bible goes on to give us the complete senario. Conception, the womb, blood and breath. -- You are also using one verse to wipe out many, many verses that clearly do not support your personal opinion. You are attempting to make wrong, right. Again: Conception Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. Ruth 4:13 So Boaz took Ruth, and she was his wife: and when he went in unto her, the LORD gave her conception, and she bare a son. Hosiah 9:11 [As for] Ephraim, their glory shall fly away like a bird, from the birth, and from the womb, and from the conception. Womb Job 31:15 Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb? Psalms 139:13 You made all the delicate, inner parts of my body, and knit them together in my mother's womb. Isaiah 44:2 Thus saith the Lord that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen. Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; Blood Gen 9:4: Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood. Lev 17:11: For the life of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it for you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement, by reason of the life. Lev 17:14: For the life of every creature is the blood of it; therefore I have said to the people of Israel, You shall not eat the blood of any creature, for the life of every creature is its blood; whoever eats it shall be cut off. Deut 12:23 Only be sure that you do not eat the blood; for the blood is the life, and you shall not eat the life with the flesh. 1Sam 26:20: Now therefore, let not my blood fall to the earth away from the presence of the LORD; for the king of Israel has come out to seek my life, like one who hunts a partridge in the mountains. Psalm 72:14: From oppression and violence he redeems their life; and precious is their blood in his sight. Eze 3:18: If I say to the wicked, 'You shall surely die,' and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, in order to save his life, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. Eze 33:5: He heard the sound of the trumpet, and did not take warning; his blood shall be upon himself. But if he had taken warning, he would have saved his life. Jonah 1:14: Therefore they cried to the LORD, "We beseech thee, O LORD, let us not perish for this man's life, and lay not on us innocent blood; for thou, O LORD, hast done as it pleased thee." John 6:53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. Breath Genesis 2:7 then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. Genesis 6:17 For behold, I will bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall die. Genesis 7:15 They went into the ark with Noah, two and two of all flesh in which there was the breath of life. Genesis 7:22 everything on the dry land in whose nostrils was the breath of life died. 1 Kings 17:17 After this the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, became ill; and his illness was so severe that there was no breath left in him. 18: And she said to Eli'jah, "What have you against me, O man of God? You have come to me to bring my sin to remembrance, and to cause the death of my son!" Job 27: 2: "As God lives, who has taken away my right, and the Almighty, who has made my soul bitter; 3: as long as my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils; Job 33:4 The spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life. Psalms 146:4 When his breath departs he returns to his earth; on that very day his plans perish. Psalms 150:6 Let everything that breathes praise the LORD! Praise the LORD! Ecc 3: 19: For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts; for all is vanity. 20: All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21: Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down to the earth? Isaiah 2: 22 Turn away from man in whose nostrils is breath, for of what account is he? Isaiah 42: 5 Thus says God, the LORD, who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread forth the earth and what comes from it, who gives breath to the people upon it and spirit to those who walk in it: Ezekiel 37:5 Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live. 6: And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live; and you shall know that I am the LORD." 7: So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold, a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to its bone. 8: And as I looked, there were sinews on them, and flesh had come upon them, and skin had covered them; but there was no breath in them. [there

The Bible says conception is the first step/ the beginning only; the Bible says the "forming" takes place in the womb...not at the moment of conception; then there are the verses on blood and finally breath (the soul) to take into consideration. The end there is both a desperate, negative, emotional appeal on your part and an accusation to boot. Your position is wrong, inhumane and most importantly unbiblical. Further references for other readers: See Post #2 Stem Cell Research in Jewish Law

And all of these prove you wrong...as well as all the verses above. Every single one proves you wrong. No they don't. I've posted the verses and said what I have to say on the subject. The rest is up to each person who reads this. Pray about it.

Let's all rely on the sum of God's word in this area. Conception Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. Ruth 4:13 So Boaz took Ruth, and she was his wife: and when he went in unto her, the LORD gave her conception, and she bare a son. Hosiah 9:11 [As for] Ephraim, their glory shall fly away like a bird, from the birth, and from the womb, and from the conception. Breath Genesis 2:7 then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. Genesis 6:17 For behold, I will bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall die. Genesis 7:15 They went into the ark with Noah, two and two of all flesh in which there was the breath of life. Genesis 7:22 everything on the dry land in whose nostrils was the breath of life died. 1 Kings 17:17 After this the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, became ill; and his illness was so severe that there was no breath left in him. 18: And she said to Eli'jah, "What have you against me, O man of God? You have come to me to bring my sin to remembrance, and to cause the death of my son!" Job 27: 2: "As God lives, who has taken away my right, and the Almighty, who has made my soul bitter; 3: as long as my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils; Job 33:4 The spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life. Psalms 146:4 When his breath departs he returns to his earth; on that very day his plans perish. Psalms 150:6 Let everything that breathes praise the LORD! Praise the LORD! Ecc 3: 19: For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts; for all is vanity. 20: All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21: Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down to the earth? Isaiah 2: 22 Turn away from man in whose nostrils is breath, for of what account is he? Isaiah 42: 5 Thus says God, the LORD, who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread forth the earth and what comes from it, who gives breath to the people upon it and spirit to those who walk in it: Ezekiel 37:5 Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live. 6: And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live; and you shall know that I am the LORD." 7: So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold, a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to its bone. 8: And as I looked, there were sinews on them, and flesh had come upon them, and skin had covered them; but there was no breath in them. [there

Emotional appeal = logical fallacy. The size of these little humans doesn't matter. They are still human. Amen. Unique, too. Unrepeatable human beings. Remember, if you have a child (No.1) and are then unfortunate enough to follow that child with a miscarried baby (No.2) the next child (No.3) is not a carbon copy replacement of the lost No. 2 child who is gone forever. It is a completely different individual. What society so easily refers to as "embryos" are embryonic, unique, unrepeatable individuals. Just try thinking of them as one of your children forever missing (if you are a parent, you will understand.) How DARE WE experiment on these embryonic people. God forgive us. I am sure we shall meet all these unique little people in heaven. Even if they were not known to us, they are known to and by God who "knit me together in my mother's womb." Ruth Not all embryos finish the journey to personhood even under the best of circumstances; some things are not meant to be biologically or spiritually. Your emotional appeal there is based on idealogy and not reality or the bible. As I said before, miguided empathy. God forgive you for the blood and suffering you have on your hands if it turns out that your efforts to thwart cures holds up this reasearch; which could cost many children...and adults their lives during the interim. The suffering and grief of their parents is will also be on your head. As the mother of an 11 yr old child with profound learning and physical disabilities I could NEVER sanction embryonic stem cell research to aid a cure for her disabilitiy. Strange as it may sound to you, she is delightful and a blessing to our family just the way she is. Of course, I would have preferred that she never suffered the brain damage when she was just a few months old that caused her current condition But God has worked all things together for good so that I am not desperate for a cure. All I ever pray concerning her healing is: if thou wilst, thou canst. Meanwhile, I cannot even begin to describe what a positive benefit she has been to our family, in spite of the extra work that caring for her has entailed. Moreover she is the most blessed, lovely, innocent, inheritor of the kingdom of Jesus that one could hope to meet. "Unless ye come as a little child.........." That is entirely your choice to make. It is not your choice to make for other parents; other people. If and when cures for diseases and injuries are found through embryonic-stem-cell research I think those who oppose today should most definitely refuse those treatments and cures if and when they need them. But my guess is like "test tube babies" [invitro fertilization] they'll have a change of heart. apothenian - You speak as one; not for the whole group.

Emotional appeal = logical fallacy. The size of these little humans doesn't matter. They are still human. The overwhelming number of verses on the subject disagree with you. Those who oppose also use emotional appeals for "potential life"; that which feels no emotion; that which knows nothing. The embryos in question have no womb, no blood, and no breath which are clear biblical components for human life. Your empathy is misplaced both biblically and ethically. Your emotion; your empathy, should be with those who do live but could die; those who suffer because they do feel emotion and pain. It's cruel and inhumane to devalue these REAL people in favor of idealogy that doesn't even line up with the scriptures themselves. What verses disagree? The passages that say God knew us before we were formed in the womb? This, of course, is meant to talk about God's foreknowledge. However, it shows how God views life - the moment we are conceived, we are human. Again, you keep using an emotional appeal. This shows me you haven't thought about this issue. You're relying on emotional hype instead of actual intelligent arguments...which is typical of those who support Nazi ideology. It's how Hitler was able to get the entire nation to turn against the Jews. My emotional appeals are based on reality; not idealogy. -- "Nazi", now that word is a negative appeal to emotion. Did you know that the Jews support embryonic stem-cell research; they certainly do not see it as "nazism" and they asked for an apology from James Dobson when he tried to make the same comparison. I have read ALL the verses many times; I've thought about them; I've prayed about them. You have free-will, you can choose to belive what James Dobson and the Pope tell you.... or you can follow ALL of God's word on the subject. I suggest you read all the verses, ponder them and pray about it.

Emotional appeal = logical fallacy. The size of these little humans doesn't matter. They are still human. The overwhelming number of verses on the subject disagree with you. Those who oppose also use emotional appeals for "potential life"; that which feels no emotion; that which knows nothing. The embryos in question have no womb, no blood, and no breath which are clear biblical components for human life. Your empathy is misplaced both biblically and ethically. Your emotion; your empathy, should be with those who do live but could die; those who suffer because they do feel emotion and pain. It's cruel and inhumane to devalue these REAL people in favor of idealogy that doesn't even line up with the scriptures themselves. What verses disagree? The passages that say God knew us before we were formed in the womb? This, of course, is meant to talk about God's foreknowledge. However, it shows how God views life - the moment we are conceived, we are human. Again, you keep using an emotional appeal. This shows me you haven't thought about this issue. You're relying on emotional hype instead of actual intelligent arguments...which is typical of those who support Nazi ideology. It's how Hitler was able to get the entire nation to turn against the Jews. My emotional appeals are based on reality; not idealogy. -- "Nazi", now that word is a negative appeal to emotion. Did you know that the Jews support embryonic stem-cell research; they certainly do not see it as "nazism" and they asked for an apology from James Dobson when he tried to make the same comparison. I have read ALL the verses many times; I've thought about them; I've prayed about them. You have free-will, you can choose to belive what James Dobson and the Pope tell you.... or you can follow ALL of God's word on the subject. I suggest you read all the verses, ponder them and pray about it.

Emotional appeal = logical fallacy. The size of these little humans doesn't matter. They are still human. Amen. Unique, too. Unrepeatable human beings. Remember, if you have a child (No.1) and are then unfortunate enough to follow that child with a miscarried baby (No.2) the next child (No.3) is not a carbon copy replacement of the lost No. 2 child who is gone forever. It is a completely different individual. What society so easily refers to as "embryos" are embryonic, unique, unrepeatable individuals. Just try thinking of them as one of your children forever missing (if you are a parent, you will understand.) How DARE WE experiment on these embryonic people. God forgive us. I am sure we shall meet all these unique little people in heaven. Even if they were not known to us, they are known to and by God who "knit me together in my mother's womb." Ruth Not all embryos finish the journey to personhood even under the best of circumstances; some things are not meant to be biologically or spiritually. Your emotional appeal there is based on idealogy and not reality or the bible. As I said before, miguided empathy. God forgive you for the blood and suffering you have on your hands if it turns out that your efforts to thwart cures holds up this reasearch; which could cost many children...and adults their lives during the interim. The suffering and grief of their parents is will also be on your head.

Emotional appeal = logical fallacy. The size of these little humans doesn't matter. They are still human. The overwhelming number of verses on the subject disagree with you. Those who oppose also use emotional appeals for "potential life"; that which feels no emotion; that which knows nothing. The embryos in question have no womb, no blood, and no breath which are clear biblical components for human life. Your empathy is misplaced both biblically and ethically. Your emotion; your empathy, should be with those who do live but could die; those who suffer because they do feel emotion and pain. It's cruel and inhumane to devalue these REAL people in favor of idealogy that doesn't even line up with the scriptures themselves.

I see a lot of "opinions" here minus the many verses in the BIBLE that talk about the very issue of "life" and the "soul". The Bible says: 1) conception 2) womb 3) blood 4) breath Only one is involved in embryonic-stem-cell research and that one takes place in a petrie dish; no pregnancy; no baby. I think you guys see the "error" of your argument but you've been "conditioned" by those in leadership to ignore the bible in favor of the "pet political agenda" of these handful of leaders who have way too much power and influence among the flock; yet these same wolves in sheep's clothing call for no ban on invitro-fertilization. Is it because the flock will stop giving $$$ if their own toes get stepped on [since many of those who oppose embryonic stem-cell research have no problem getting invitro when God gives THEM a barren womb?] The hypocrisy, as always just astounds me. Let's try again:

Neither was mine; it was two other people's posts. I believe embryonic stem-cell research should be done as well as therapeutic cloning. It is ethical, moral and there's no reason biblically to oppose it [see first post]. If you think there is ZERO need for embryonic stem cells then you should be calling for a ban on invitro-fertilization; not a ban on embryonic stem-cell research.

Continuing: There were a lot of very nasty replies but then there was this one: It is said that fools rush in where angels fear to tread .... so, here I am. If I understand your question correctly, you are asking what sources in the Bible allow or prohibit abortion and the use of human embryos for medical research, and under what circumstances. With that in mind, here is my understanding of your questions from a Jewish perspective. Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. Whether or not you understand the story of Adam and Eve is one of literal truth or religious allegory, this passage expresses an inescapable truth: women, being less physically strong, must rely on men for protection, especially during challenging times of pregnancy and childbirth. However, Judaism also teaches that obedience to Torah (the Five Books of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deutronomy) restores women to our proper status as "the crown of her husband" and "pearl of his life". (Proverbs 12:4, 31:10 commentary of R'Hirsch.) (snip) Breath Genesis 2:7 then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. Genesis 7:15 They went into the ark with Noah, two and two of all flesh in which there was the breath of life. Genesis 7:22 everything on the dry land in whose nostrils was the breath of life died. (snip) Job 33:4 The spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life. In Judaism, an infant receives his/her soul at the time the infant draws its first breath - "The breath of the Almightly" describes both the soul and the beginning of an independent physical life, no longer merged with the functions of the mother. The abortion question in Talmudic law (Jewish religious law) then revolves around the legal status of the embryo. For this the Talmud has a phrase, ubbar yerekh immo, and the fetus is deemed "a part of its mother," rather than an independent entity. However, this designation says nothing about the morality of abortion. More about that later... Although the soul is placed within an infant with the first breath, it is vital to understand that "breath" is not the same as "soul". This passage shows the difference:Isaiah 2: 22 Turn away from man in whose nostrils is breath,(mere physical life, as opposed to spiritual life) for of what account is he? (without knowledge of a soul). Isaiah 42: 5 Thus says God, the LORD, who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread forth the earth and what comes from it, who gives breath ((physical life))to the people upon it AND spirit (the soul)to those who walk in it: (snip) Biblically speaking the issue of when real life begins is scripturally contradictive