Hypathia

At this point Psalms 14:1 tells me this loud and clear. Even way back then people were starting to question the legitimacy of the clergy and what they were "selling" and this response is just a way of trying to villify those who were brave enough to say "the emperor has no clothes".

My son is an atheist and he's one of the kindest people I've ever known. His teachers (who are unaware that he's an atheist) have told us at parent teacher conferences that he's one of the kindest kids they've ever come across not to mention the fact that he is exceptionally intelligent (we're talking genius I.Q.). He's far more thoughful than the little religious zealots he goes to school with (which I think has has a bearing on his non-belief). He'd told me years ago that the most religious in his class were the absolute meanest toward other kids and the faculty too....and the biggest bully of them all said out loud in class one day, "people hate me because they hate Jesus". The kid is too dumb to figure out that it has nothing to do with Jesus, it has to do with how he bullies the other children and the teachers. Dumb, mean people often flock to and flaunt "Jesus" to stroke their egos. I truely hate to say this because like most of you I've been a christian all my life and it's hard to fact the facts. But it's also getting harder, as I grow older and wiser, to ignore the facts....the "awful truth" if you will. I've known a few other atheists in my lifetime (much to my horror at the time) that I can now look back and see how honest they were, how nice, how thoughtful, how considerate they truly were of other people.... while the biggest ******and crooks have been among those who've been the biggest bible-thumpers in our community. I see now why my son never believed (even when he attended an evangelical christian school) and why my husband deconverted after an entire lifetime of "bible-thumping" and christian evagelical zealotry..............it just ain't true and there's really is no such thing as the "holy spirit". That's just the way it is and we'd all be better off if we just faced that FACT.

Biblicist - That's not personal, that a position of being a subordinate. As for the other two verses, the Bible says those things, making you feel secure, then undermines that security when with the "depart from me I never knew you" verses that describe Judgement Day. I can't not take into account actions by God in the OT, what was done to Jesus/God [his torture] actions Paul committed against people via God in the NT and descriptions of what Jesus is going to do to the population at his reture.....plus what is going to happen to people in hell for all eternity. Taking all these things into account I can't "know" where I'm going even if I beg for mercy on a daily basis. It's like picking up a hitchiker, seeing that it's Ted Bundy and believing him when he says, "Trust me I won't hurt you". Not trying to be negative here people; just being honest. The only thing I trust is that God will do whatever He wants to each and every person regardless of whether they grovel at his feet or not. Dear God please don't strike me dead on the spot for saying all this out loud, You already know I've been thinking it. I'm gonna have to get off now guys. This stuff is depressing, draining, and I'm getting way, way behind here at home and it's time for me to play catch up. Thanks for all your replies and attempts at comfort. I appreciate it.

I'm not refusing God's mercy at all Kari; I want mercy; I pray that God will have mercy on me. I'm begging for mercy because the bible tells me what God is capable of so I know I need mercy. We'll find out for sure on judegment day whether we'll get it or not.

damo - Where does the bible say we are to have a personal relationship with God? That's something a pastor will tell you but ask them to show it to you in scripture; a Pastor isn't God and the Pastor will give you whatever "spin" he's been trained to give you to calm you down. If the bible is perfect then we don't even need a pastor or a priest. You should have seen the stunned look on my minister's face when I started asking some hard questions. They never give you a straight answer, they try to turn the conversation around on 'you', "your feelings" anything to avoid the bible......except the few "nice" verses of course. Most of those are in John. If Satan is playing with me as you put it then Satan would have had to ask God permission to "play" with me, he couldn't just do it on his own.

As Creator, ALL life belongs to God, and it is His right to give life or to take it away, that does not make God a murderer. But, the Bible does give that label to Satan: "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies." (John 8:44) Satan isn't god. So if Satan was a murderer from the beginning then it means God made him that way from the beginning, and, as I've pointed out already even Satan cannot kill without God's permission to do so. We kill and we call it murder, but when God kills we don't call it murder because it's God doing it and He can do whatever He wants to whomever He wants by whatever method he chooses to do it. It's pointless to blame satan when satan has a boss over him. Maybe God created satan for the fallguy position; He created everything for a purpose....which the Bible tells us is to glorify Him [God] so that would include satan and the role that God chose for him. But also, just to point out, in another part of the bible Lucifer isn't referred to as being a murderer in the beginning, he's referred to as being a beautiful angel of God. Maybe he was a beautiful murderous angel? Only God knows how he made him or why he needed an evil angel to glorify Himself. The Bible calls satan the "god of this world." (2 Corinthians 4:4 ) And what is meant by him being a murderer from the beginning, it means from the moment iniquity was found in him. (Ezekiel 28:15) You need to read the Bible in context, and stop snipping out what doesn't mesh with your personal vendetta against God. Kari - Is God perfect or not? Can a perfect being such as God make an imperfect being by accident? Who made Satan? Was Satan a mistake or did God create satan by design? I think God is the beginning and the end; the Alpha and the Omega, all things good and bad are part of God's plan for whatever reason we don't understand. God can do whatever He wants whether we like it or agree with it or not. He could care less if we "make human excuses" for what He does He's so far above us.

Listen guys, instead of focusing on me, my fear, focus on what the bible actually says. It seems evident in your posts that you're avoiding the scriptures and putting forth your own "happy thoughts"; making God the kind of God you want him to be according to man's ways, our opinions on what God should be instead of what God says about Himself in the Bible; what He says He has done and what He says He is going to do. As for Judgement Day don't forget, a lot of people are going to be begging and reminding God of all the good things they've done in His name to which He will reply, "Depart from me I never knew you". People do good things in the name of God because they believe in Him and yet even they won't make it into heaven according to the Bible --- which BTW we are suppose to read. If you're not gonna read it and study it then you might as well become a Catholic and just lets a bunch of Priests tell you what to think.

I'm just scared to death of Him. I don't know how anyone that has read the bible couldn't be scared to death of Him. -- Sorry, but we do not have free-will at all. Think about that dying on the cross thing, God skewered His own Son; tortured Him to death.....and when you factor in that that Son was God Himself? That's terrifying! Add to that all the God santioned killing in the OT and the promise of a bloody end in the NT when Jesus returns.....and the terror grows. Here's a God that can create everything with a spoken word yet He operates on this kind of level to "conquer death"? That's love?? That's just scary. We're definitely at His mercy.

As Creator, ALL life belongs to God, and it is His right to give life or to take it away, that does not make God a murderer. But, the Bible does give that label to Satan: "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies." (John 8:44) Satan isn't god. So if Satan was a murderer from the beginning then it means God made him that way from the beginning, and, as I've pointed out already even Satan cannot kill without God's permission to do so. We kill and we call it murder, but when God kills we don't call it murder because it's God doing it and He can do whatever He wants to whomever He wants by whatever method he chooses to do it. It's pointless to blame satan when satan has a boss over him. Maybe God created satan for the fallguy position; He created everything for a purpose....which the Bible tells us is to glorify Him [God] so that would include satan and the role that God chose for him. But also, just to point out, in another part of the bible Lucifer isn't referred to as being a murderer in the beginning, he's referred to as being a beautiful angel of God. Maybe he was a beautiful murderous angel? Only God knows how he made him or why he needed an evil angel to glorify Himself.

I would just like to say, you sound like my husband's uncles, they are Jehovah's Witnesses and they always give me the exact arguments you give. I don't even bother sending them Christmas cards because I get letters back from them stating these very points. What do you say about Halloween?

Now my wheels are really turning here. If scholars figure out the real day Jesus was born....or can come reasonably close to it....how should we celebrate it. I'd be interested in hearing what you guys think. I think most people would still continue to celebrate the december holidays in the usual ways but how should we celebrate the actual birthday of Jesus if it can be determined? What traditions would be appropriate and respectful? Would you stop recognizing Dec 25 as any kind of holiday, would you go to work on that day and treat it just like most any other ordinary day? With a true date we could start.... anew, what would you like to do? What traditions would you like to start for the real birthday party?

Winter Solstice falls on Dec 21st but the whole week ended up being celebrated in Rome. They called it Saturalia [the god Saturn] and many religious and non-religious practices from many cultures were incorporated into the week. The Persian Deity of the religion called Zoroastrianism celebrated the birth of it's Sun deity Mitras, [sol Ivectus] on Dec 25th and that's how that day was selected. It represented the rebirth of the sun which was "dead" on Dec 21st. Haven't we covered all this already? Perhaps religious scholars should try and narrow down a day closer to the actual birth of Jesus. That would be more appropriate than the day of the sun god Mithras imo. If they did that how would you celebrate it? How do you celebrate it now? Do you put up a tree, have presents, the whole bit or do you skip all that and just go to church and focus on Jesus all day?

I didn't say there wasn't celebrating on the day of his birth; I said Dec 25 was not the day of his birth. I don't celebrate pagan gods. I see it for what it is, a time to celebrate time with my family with the food, the presents and the decorations.....all man's ways of celebrating time with the family. It's not gonna matter whether you celebrate it that way or whether you put a "christian label" on it. In the end, you're either one of the elect or you're not. Religiously speaking, the pagans had the holiday taken from them; it was theirs to begin with. So if they do want to "reclaim" it.... as you put it, they're [religiously speaking], within their right to do so. Who are you to complain about their attempts since it was their religious tradition to begin with.

I think they have less sympathy this time of year because they're so stressed out and stretched to the limit. They're trying to shop, wrap, mail things off, decorate, and cook........which takes time and money. I find that there are fewer people at a funeral in December, some of that has to do with the weather as well.

To me it's neither christian or pagan but a time to have fun, decorating, eating, buying presents; I think that's the way it is with most people; we've modernized it to our own culture and we celebrate it within that context. Religiously speaking, historically it began as a pagan holiday. Early christians did not celebrate at this time of year for that very reason.......they shunned it. From a Christian perspective; those who see it entirely as a celebration of the birth of Jesus....-- Those of you who think God doesn't have a problem with this.....what do you think He meant about not adopting pagan/heathen customs? Was God just "messing" with us? Did He really not mean it or has he sofened about it and changed His mind? I mean, the Bible tells us that God's ways are not man's way yet this holiday is "man's ways".....how do you reconcile those verses with statements to the effect of, "I don't really think God will be mad at us for celebrating Jesus' birthday on Dec 25th". Artsylady - you sure do "feel sorry" for a lot of people