Hypathia

At this point Psalms 14:1 tells me this loud and clear. Even way back then people were starting to question the legitimacy of the clergy and what they were "selling" and this response is just a way of trying to villify those who were brave enough to say "the emperor has no clothes".

My son is an atheist and he's one of the kindest people I've ever known. His teachers (who are unaware that he's an atheist) have told us at parent teacher conferences that he's one of the kindest kids they've ever come across not to mention the fact that he is exceptionally intelligent (we're talking genius I.Q.). He's far more thoughful than the little religious zealots he goes to school with (which I think has has a bearing on his non-belief). He'd told me years ago that the most religious in his class were the absolute meanest toward other kids and the faculty too....and the biggest bully of them all said out loud in class one day, "people hate me because they hate Jesus". The kid is too dumb to figure out that it has nothing to do with Jesus, it has to do with how he bullies the other children and the teachers. Dumb, mean people often flock to and flaunt "Jesus" to stroke their egos. I truely hate to say this because like most of you I've been a christian all my life and it's hard to fact the facts. But it's also getting harder, as I grow older and wiser, to ignore the facts....the "awful truth" if you will. I've known a few other atheists in my lifetime (much to my horror at the time) that I can now look back and see how honest they were, how nice, how thoughtful, how considerate they truly were of other people.... while the biggest ******and crooks have been among those who've been the biggest bible-thumpers in our community. I see now why my son never believed (even when he attended an evangelical christian school) and why my husband deconverted after an entire lifetime of "bible-thumping" and christian evagelical zealotry..............it just ain't true and there's really is no such thing as the "holy spirit". That's just the way it is and we'd all be better off if we just faced that FACT.

Biblicist - That's not personal, that a position of being a subordinate. As for the other two verses, the Bible says those things, making you feel secure, then undermines that security when with the "depart from me I never knew you" verses that describe Judgement Day. I can't not take into account actions by God in the OT, what was done to Jesus/God [his torture] actions Paul committed against people via God in the NT and descriptions of what Jesus is going to do to the population at his reture.....plus what is going to happen to people in hell for all eternity. Taking all these things into account I can't "know" where I'm going even if I beg for mercy on a daily basis. It's like picking up a hitchiker, seeing that it's Ted Bundy and believing him when he says, "Trust me I won't hurt you". Not trying to be negative here people; just being honest. The only thing I trust is that God will do whatever He wants to each and every person regardless of whether they grovel at his feet or not. Dear God please don't strike me dead on the spot for saying all this out loud, You already know I've been thinking it. I'm gonna have to get off now guys. This stuff is depressing, draining, and I'm getting way, way behind here at home and it's time for me to play catch up. Thanks for all your replies and attempts at comfort. I appreciate it.

I'm not refusing God's mercy at all Kari; I want mercy; I pray that God will have mercy on me. I'm begging for mercy because the bible tells me what God is capable of so I know I need mercy. We'll find out for sure on judegment day whether we'll get it or not.

damo - Where does the bible say we are to have a personal relationship with God? That's something a pastor will tell you but ask them to show it to you in scripture; a Pastor isn't God and the Pastor will give you whatever "spin" he's been trained to give you to calm you down. If the bible is perfect then we don't even need a pastor or a priest. You should have seen the stunned look on my minister's face when I started asking some hard questions. They never give you a straight answer, they try to turn the conversation around on 'you', "your feelings" anything to avoid the bible......except the few "nice" verses of course. Most of those are in John. If Satan is playing with me as you put it then Satan would have had to ask God permission to "play" with me, he couldn't just do it on his own.

As Creator, ALL life belongs to God, and it is His right to give life or to take it away, that does not make God a murderer. But, the Bible does give that label to Satan: "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies." (John 8:44) Satan isn't god. So if Satan was a murderer from the beginning then it means God made him that way from the beginning, and, as I've pointed out already even Satan cannot kill without God's permission to do so. We kill and we call it murder, but when God kills we don't call it murder because it's God doing it and He can do whatever He wants to whomever He wants by whatever method he chooses to do it. It's pointless to blame satan when satan has a boss over him. Maybe God created satan for the fallguy position; He created everything for a purpose....which the Bible tells us is to glorify Him [God] so that would include satan and the role that God chose for him. But also, just to point out, in another part of the bible Lucifer isn't referred to as being a murderer in the beginning, he's referred to as being a beautiful angel of God. Maybe he was a beautiful murderous angel? Only God knows how he made him or why he needed an evil angel to glorify Himself. The Bible calls satan the "god of this world." (2 Corinthians 4:4 ) And what is meant by him being a murderer from the beginning, it means from the moment iniquity was found in him. (Ezekiel 28:15) You need to read the Bible in context, and stop snipping out what doesn't mesh with your personal vendetta against God. Kari - Is God perfect or not? Can a perfect being such as God make an imperfect being by accident? Who made Satan? Was Satan a mistake or did God create satan by design? I think God is the beginning and the end; the Alpha and the Omega, all things good and bad are part of God's plan for whatever reason we don't understand. God can do whatever He wants whether we like it or agree with it or not. He could care less if we "make human excuses" for what He does He's so far above us.

Listen guys, instead of focusing on me, my fear, focus on what the bible actually says. It seems evident in your posts that you're avoiding the scriptures and putting forth your own "happy thoughts"; making God the kind of God you want him to be according to man's ways, our opinions on what God should be instead of what God says about Himself in the Bible; what He says He has done and what He says He is going to do. As for Judgement Day don't forget, a lot of people are going to be begging and reminding God of all the good things they've done in His name to which He will reply, "Depart from me I never knew you". People do good things in the name of God because they believe in Him and yet even they won't make it into heaven according to the Bible --- which BTW we are suppose to read. If you're not gonna read it and study it then you might as well become a Catholic and just lets a bunch of Priests tell you what to think.

I'm just scared to death of Him. I don't know how anyone that has read the bible couldn't be scared to death of Him. -- Sorry, but we do not have free-will at all. Think about that dying on the cross thing, God skewered His own Son; tortured Him to death.....and when you factor in that that Son was God Himself? That's terrifying! Add to that all the God santioned killing in the OT and the promise of a bloody end in the NT when Jesus returns.....and the terror grows. Here's a God that can create everything with a spoken word yet He operates on this kind of level to "conquer death"? That's love?? That's just scary. We're definitely at His mercy.

As Creator, ALL life belongs to God, and it is His right to give life or to take it away, that does not make God a murderer. But, the Bible does give that label to Satan: "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies." (John 8:44) Satan isn't god. So if Satan was a murderer from the beginning then it means God made him that way from the beginning, and, as I've pointed out already even Satan cannot kill without God's permission to do so. We kill and we call it murder, but when God kills we don't call it murder because it's God doing it and He can do whatever He wants to whomever He wants by whatever method he chooses to do it. It's pointless to blame satan when satan has a boss over him. Maybe God created satan for the fallguy position; He created everything for a purpose....which the Bible tells us is to glorify Him [God] so that would include satan and the role that God chose for him. But also, just to point out, in another part of the bible Lucifer isn't referred to as being a murderer in the beginning, he's referred to as being a beautiful angel of God. Maybe he was a beautiful murderous angel? Only God knows how he made him or why he needed an evil angel to glorify Himself.

I would just like to say, you sound like my husband's uncles, they are Jehovah's Witnesses and they always give me the exact arguments you give. I don't even bother sending them Christmas cards because I get letters back from them stating these very points. What do you say about Halloween?

Now my wheels are really turning here. If scholars figure out the real day Jesus was born....or can come reasonably close to it....how should we celebrate it. I'd be interested in hearing what you guys think. I think most people would still continue to celebrate the december holidays in the usual ways but how should we celebrate the actual birthday of Jesus if it can be determined? What traditions would be appropriate and respectful? Would you stop recognizing Dec 25 as any kind of holiday, would you go to work on that day and treat it just like most any other ordinary day? With a true date we could start.... anew, what would you like to do? What traditions would you like to start for the real birthday party?

Winter Solstice falls on Dec 21st but the whole week ended up being celebrated in Rome. They called it Saturalia [the god Saturn] and many religious and non-religious practices from many cultures were incorporated into the week. The Persian Deity of the religion called Zoroastrianism celebrated the birth of it's Sun deity Mitras, [sol Ivectus] on Dec 25th and that's how that day was selected. It represented the rebirth of the sun which was "dead" on Dec 21st. Haven't we covered all this already? Perhaps religious scholars should try and narrow down a day closer to the actual birth of Jesus. That would be more appropriate than the day of the sun god Mithras imo. If they did that how would you celebrate it? How do you celebrate it now? Do you put up a tree, have presents, the whole bit or do you skip all that and just go to church and focus on Jesus all day?

I didn't say there wasn't celebrating on the day of his birth; I said Dec 25 was not the day of his birth. I don't celebrate pagan gods. I see it for what it is, a time to celebrate time with my family with the food, the presents and the decorations.....all man's ways of celebrating time with the family. It's not gonna matter whether you celebrate it that way or whether you put a "christian label" on it. In the end, you're either one of the elect or you're not. Religiously speaking, the pagans had the holiday taken from them; it was theirs to begin with. So if they do want to "reclaim" it.... as you put it, they're [religiously speaking], within their right to do so. Who are you to complain about their attempts since it was their religious tradition to begin with.

I think they have less sympathy this time of year because they're so stressed out and stretched to the limit. They're trying to shop, wrap, mail things off, decorate, and cook........which takes time and money. I find that there are fewer people at a funeral in December, some of that has to do with the weather as well.

To me it's neither christian or pagan but a time to have fun, decorating, eating, buying presents; I think that's the way it is with most people; we've modernized it to our own culture and we celebrate it within that context. Religiously speaking, historically it began as a pagan holiday. Early christians did not celebrate at this time of year for that very reason.......they shunned it. From a Christian perspective; those who see it entirely as a celebration of the birth of Jesus....-- Those of you who think God doesn't have a problem with this.....what do you think He meant about not adopting pagan/heathen customs? Was God just "messing" with us? Did He really not mean it or has he sofened about it and changed His mind? I mean, the Bible tells us that God's ways are not man's way yet this holiday is "man's ways".....how do you reconcile those verses with statements to the effect of, "I don't really think God will be mad at us for celebrating Jesus' birthday on Dec 25th". Artsylady - you sure do "feel sorry" for a lot of people

It seems to me that you are all adding to what the scriptures actually say in order to make youselves feel comfortable. We're not suppose to add to or take away or so I've been taught. The scriptures clearly say that God preordained everything and you can't blame satan because satan is God's creatioin too; plus, even in the bible genocide was done at the orders of God. Satan only kills in the book of Job and even then he can't do it without asking God first. People say you can't know the mind of God; people say the Bible is God's word yet the same people can't accept that word when it conflicts with personal human emotions and mankind's sense of right and wrong. We try to make God's mind fit our own minds.

Hypathia - this isn't what the Scriptures say. The bible says a lot of things but when you get down to the heart of it it does say it's God's decision, God's predestination and there's nothing we can say or do to change it.....but it doesn't stop us from trying. EmilyAnn - You're tripping all over yourself in that last post.

The chances of that happening are very unlikely; however, if it did happen I would celebrate the birthday on the day the child entered the adoption system or on the day I adopted it and it came to live with me. That's a little different than celebrating the birthday of the God of the Universe who evidently didn't intend for us to know the actual day of his birth. Maybe He didn't want us to celebrate it......I just don't know. All I know is that we don't know when it was, whether we're suppose to celebrate it, and the day that some people do celebrate it was already a celebration that had been taking place for hundreds of years. Maybe birthdays are a big deal to us but not to God?

I celebrate my kids birthdays on their actual birthdays; I don't celebrate them on someone's elses (real or imagined) birthday. Whether I go to heaven or not will depend on whether it's God's will; if I'm one of His elect or not. I can proclaim Jesus my savior; I can say the sinner's prayer (which isn't even in scripture) I can try and follow all the commandments but when you get down to the nitty gritty it's up to whether God says I'm in or whether He says I'm out regardless of what I say, or do, or think but all too often, like most people, I forget that and think that I have a free-will decision in the outcome. That's a hard habit to break.

Why does this surprise anybody. I've been thinking for awhile now that all these attempts by the religious right to mix religion and politics will only usher in the retaking of the Western World by the Roman Catholic Church. We do need neutralization on the part of government. People can call a priest or a preacher from a local congregation if they need one and almost everyone owns a bible that they can take to the hospital with them, or have a family member bring. And, most importantly you can pray anywhere anytime and nobody even has to know it but you and God which is how it is suppose to be. These Catholic things need to also be removed from that VA system because it shows a preference for the Catholic Church.

Was your birth important? What about the birth of your family members? The birth of the Saviour of the World would certainly be more important than all of those put together...It was certinly important to the Angels! Then why don't we know when it was? The real date?

Exodus 4: 21: And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. Proverbs 16:4 The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble. John 12:40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they should see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and turn for me to heal them." Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of God; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. Romans 8:29-30 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified. Romans 9:11-23 11: though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad, in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call, 12: she was told, "The elder will serve the younger." 13: As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." 14: What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15: For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16: So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy. 17: For the scripture says to Pharaoh, "I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth." 18: So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills. 19: You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20: But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me thus?" 21: Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use? 22: What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction, 23: in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory, Ephesians 1:4-5 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. 5: He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 2 Thess 2:11-12 Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false, 12: so that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Tim 1:9 who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not in virtue of our works but in virtue of his own purpose and the grace which he gave us in Christ Jesus ages ago, Jude 1:4 For admission has been secretly gained by some who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly persons who pervert the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. The Bible says it's all really God's will after all; both good and bad..... for the purpose of glorifying Him.

Good question, I've thought the same thing. After reading some of the responses maybe God is putting hooks in the jaws of gunmen (like Colorado, Omaha, and that Amish Schoolhouse) and making people kill for Him the way the Bible says He put a hook in Pharoah's jaw so God could come back and kill all the firstborn of Egypt. Maybe He did cause that sunami and the water to flood into New Orleans to kill people the same way the Bible says He flooded the earth and drowned everybody. Maybe He did speak to Andrea Yates the way He spoke to Abraham and the way He let Japeth kill his only daughter and burn her body as a burnt sacrifice to Him. If the Bible really is true then God is a killer, yesterday, today and He will be tomorrow.....just reading Revelation tells us of the massive bloodshed that is to come. If also says God will have mercy on whom He wants to have mercy on. If you're not one of the ones He wants to have mercy on then there's nothing you can do about it.

I'm new here, so please excuse me if I do this all wrong but I feel I have to say something. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, so in the beginning Golgotha was already in place to serve as Jesus' place of death. He gave us free will from the beginning with Adam & Eve all the way down to Judas. It's what We do with our free will that causes the pain and distruction or the joy that we create in our lives and the world around us. God created Judas, he didn't have to be the one to betray Jesus, he could have prayed just as easy as Jesus...let this cup pass from me, but he chose to take the money. If this gunman had stayed on his knees and close to God then Satan would never had a foothold in this man's life to cause him to do the things that he did. As for the people dying, how sad and awful that is, but they were in church, praising and worshipping our Lord and Saviour can you imagine praising him one minute and looking into His eyes the next? Sometimes, I say we can't blame Satan for everything that goes wrong, but then I think he has only a limited amount of time left and then he is done. He is about his business, taking souls to hell with him, and he does his job extremely well...if us Christians would do our jobs as good as satan so many of these horrific incidents that are taking place would not take place. We want to blame God but how much am I or you really doing to stop satan? But the bible overwhelmingly states that god predetermined everything; those verses far outnumber the verses that talk about free will. Praying for god to come into your life and the lives of your children is asking God to do that and the bible says that if you ask god for anything he will do it. Even in the bible 'Lucifer' doesn't kill anybody except in the book of Job and even there he has to ask god's permission; he didn't act on his own free-will and the whole Job thing was some cruel cosmic bet. Bottom line, after those those people praised and glorified god, they died. God made satan, that is, if the story is even true. I'm doubting at the moment whether anything in the bible is anything more than man-made stories minus any factual truth. Hypathia, I have a question for you. Do you know what salvation is? I'm asking this question out of love, or what I feel God would have me ask you. Have you ever prayed the prayer of salvation? Have you ever knealt at a altar(at church or one you made at home), and prayed and asked Jesus to come into your heart, and felt it when He did? Have you ever asked Him to forgive you of your sins, and felt it when He did? Have you ever cried so hard praying for the forgiveness of sins that the tears(and I mean big rolling tears) just flowed so uncontrollably and it felt so good that they did flow like that? Have you ever gotten up and felt changed and decided from that moment on that you and Jesus were going to make you a new person? If you have then you know that the Bible is real and every word is true. If you have then you know that God is still in charge and knows exactly what He is doing. I didn't finish my point on my earlier reply about Golgotha being made from the beginning. God knew before He made this world and man that we were going to mess up, and yet He still made us. Why? Because He knew He was going to love us know matter what, just like when we have kids we know they are going to be a handful, but we want to have something to love. When God made Golgotha don't you imagine that there had to be tears in His eyes, knowing what the purpose of that hill was going to be? We watch unthinkable things happen on a daily basis, and we have all asked God why? But He has been there, He sees the same thing we see, and He has felt the same things we have felt. When Jesus was dying on the cross, He asked My God, My God why hast thou forsaken me, watching Jesus dye on the cross was too much for God, He had to turn his face away. He knew it was going to happen yet He still created the world, that hill, and the tree to supply the means for which Jesus was to be hung and die for OUR sins. He gave us a road map(the Bible) to get to heaven, but some people don't read it and therefore cause detours for themselves and us, and because of that terrible things happen, but it is not God's fault. I'm praying for you, the devil is like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour, he is trying to devour you right now with doubt, don't let him win. I love you and I am praying for you. Yes I've done all those things and yet I know I'd never kill my child and I'd never allow a friend to die at the hands of a crazy person if I had it within my power to stop it. The Bible is suppose to be real and true and yet I find myself more and more questioning this because the promises in it are not kept. I am increasingly drawn back to Isaiah 45:7 and the FACT that it all goes back to god because satan was made by god and the bible says satan does nothing without the permission of god....so I'm left with this, god is the beginning and the end of everything including evil............so how can He really be good? The more I read the Bible the less it makes sense. I feel uncomfortable saying these things but I feel more uncomfortable making up excuses and engaging in cherry picking verses that contradict each other. {Faith verses predestination for example} I get the impression that people think the devil is just as powerful as God and that just doesn't wash. What if we're just a bunch of puppets down here for the amusement and entertainment of God? That scares me.

Whether to celebrate or not is all opinion. Mine is no less valid than anyone else's and I do try and provide some reasoning. James might not have been there but surely being Jesus' brother he would have known his birthday. I know my sibling's birthdays and they're just people. James brother was God, all the more reason to know and remember his birthdate and tell the whole world when it was, especially the other christians and converts of that era. Scripturally speaking the birthdate isn't mentioned and we are not told to "pick one" and celebrate it every year with pagan traditions and customs. You say God doesn't say "NOT" to and that's really a very weak argument when you think about it. It is an ancient pagan holiday, you can celebrate Jesus' birth on it if you want to, I'm just pointing out that this holiday has been around a long, long, time before it was ever christianized by the Catholic Church. I hope this whole thing isn't some big test from God to see if we're willing to "give up" a human holiday for Him the way He gave up his life for us. If it is we're all gonna flunk I think. I sure hope I don't find myself in eternal hell for being "weak" and going with the flow. btw Vicki - I'm not acusing anyone here of worshipping pagan gods. I don't think any of us here have ever done that.