BurnForChrist

My post repeated for some reason?

Is there any way to delete repeated post?

This text has no predestination of believers even in site. What was predestined is our destiny, that we would be blameless, holy, to be conformed to His Image as Romans depicts it. There is nothing here of God choosing believers. We are being chosen IN Christ, IN HIM. One first needs to be IN Christ to be of that Chosen race, to be conformed to His Image.Thus it is not our response to Him, but the nature of our salvation.

The Follow bible study was done by a friend of mine who looked to the Old Testament for the deity of our LORD Jesus Christ. I thought it was very valuable information and study. Let me know what you all think. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- IS THE MESSIAH DEITY? The Messiah Depending on your faith and environment, the name invokes different thoughts and visions: Some Jews believe there is a possibility of a messiah for each generation: Moses, Sampson, Elijah, ect

That's because you want the double action. It does not say that and it is not what I had stated. What it says is that one must be in Christ, before one is chosen. In other words, Christ knew who would believe, and those that believe are IN Christ. Those He chose to predestinate. He predestinated to become transformed in His Image. There is no chosing of a believer to be a believer. Oh really? Is that what the scriptures say? Ephesians 1:4 "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love." There is no where in all of scripture that says you must be in Christ in order to be chosen. But rather choosen in Christ and appointed by GOD to believe, as the scriptures say: Acts 13:48 "Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." Ephesians 1:5-6 "Having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved." So according to the good pleasure of His Will, he predestined us to be adopted as sons by Jesus Christ to himself. He choose us in his son, before the Foundation of the World. Let me ask you a question, what did Jesus mean when he said "You did not choose me but I choose you" (John 15:16)

I would agree that GOD choose me, not based on anything I did, any good or evil, but Uncondtionally, where do I get this from? Romans 9:11-13 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.” We see GODs sovereign freedom in electing Jacob over Esau. The basis of his choice was NOT based on ANYTHING they did, but rather unconditionally. Its not of works, but GODs electing Grace. Romans 9:14-16 "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy." Ephesians 1:4-6 "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved." Ephesians 1:11 "In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will." John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you." In my opinion you have to truly understand man's depravity in order to understand this. Burn

The same differentiation that I make between water, ice and vapor, it's all water, just different forms. Oops Sorry Josh - thought I had responded but just discovered the post isn

Isaiah 55:9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts." This isn't simply a man we are talking about here, with your finite minds you couldn't possibly ever understand the reasoning behind why GOD does the things he does. While yes he created all things for his name and for his glory, He creates us all for His purpose and you will glorify Him, whether it be in hell showing his Justice, or Heaven in glory by his mercy. But it seems like you never knew him, nor do you know Him, but I hope he grants you mercy. Romans 1:20 "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse."

I hope so , this pretty much convinces me by the power and enlightenment of the Holy Spirit: "For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one." 1 John 5:7 (NKJV)

Mutzrein, Forgive me if I have misunderstood what you have posted, but honestly if Jesus wasn't GOD in the flesh then his sacrifice on the cross was meaningless and you are still dead in your sins, there is only ONE savior and that is GOD. Jesus is Yahweh. I don't think you misunderstood the intent of what I was saying. Scripture tells us that Jesus was in the image of God. He reflected God in all things being obedient to Him in all he said and did. Being in the image of God and actually BEING God in the flesh are not one and the same thing. And being in the image of God does not make him imperfect. He was the spotless lamb OF God. john20:28 Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" so is Thomas wrong in saying this? Nope not at all, he was indeed GOD. This text is just another example of how his own disciples called Him GOD, and he even received worship from men, because he was GOD.

Mutzrein, Forgive me if I have misunderstood what you have posted, but honestly if Jesus wasn't GOD in the flesh then his sacrifice on the cross was meaningless and you are still dead in your sins, there is only ONE savior and that is GOD. Jesus is Yahweh. I don't think you misunderstood the intent of what I was saying. Scripture tells us that Jesus was in the image of God. He reflected God in all things being obedient to Him in all he said and did. Being in the image of God and actually BEING God in the flesh are not one and the same thing. And being in the image of God does not make him imperfect. He was the spotless lamb OF God. Mutzrein, Thanks for your reply, im glad I got it right . Scripture indeed tells us that He was the image of the invisible GOD, he is the express image of his glory (Hebrews 1:3), however there is an abundance amount of scripture that points to Jesus Christ is indeed GOD and its extremely important that he was GOD, because if he wasn't then scripture will contradict itself, but he was and ill show you in scripture that indeed he was GOD . "I and my Father are One." (John 10:30) Jesus here in this text, our LORD is NOT saying that He and the Father are one in the same person but ONE in nature (Deity). Meaning he was GOD. If we keep reading John's account we see that the Jew's present did not misunderstand what he was saying, for scripture tells us they picked up stones and attempted to stone Him and give a reason why they did. The Jews answered Him, saying,

Mutzrein, Forgive me if I have misunderstood what you have posted, but honestly if Jesus wasn't GOD in the flesh then his sacrifice on the cross was meaningless and you are still dead in your sins, there is only ONE savior and that is GOD. Jesus is Yahweh.

Thaddeus, thanks for your reply, You said: I think I have realized it even more than you. Later in your post you seem to think that sin and God can mix. That just because God propitiated the sins of the world, that all men somehow cannot sin. Your theology does not follow the Bible as much as you might think. The only reason mankind could not have an lasting relationship with God is because man had become mortal, through the judgement of death against Adam. That is what dead to sins means. Man could not do anything about either one. That is the whole reason for Christ in the first place. Christ redeemed mankind from death, gave life, gave immortality to man. Christ overcame death. He also propitiated for the sins of the world. Christ did not eradicate sin, did not even change our human nature in this life, but He made it possible for those human beings who answered His universal call to repentance to be able to do so. God made it possible for a human being to meet God, through Christ. Your view also abrogates God's purpose in creating man. The "saved" you keep refering to is the salvation of individual man's soul which is through faith. Christ did not save any souls on the Cross. He made it possible for mankind to do what man was created to do and be. He corrected the fall so mankind, every human being, could do what they were created to do, but do it freely. You have misunderstood all that I have posted, when did I ever post that GOD and Sin can mix? Man couldn't have a relationship with GOD because a thing called Sin, something that is horribly wrong, in which death is the result thereof. Now all men are subject to the holy hatred of GOD that is his wrath that had to be satisfied, his justice had to be appeased, and thats exactly what Jesus Christ did upon the Cross, He bore our sins and The Father poured out his wrath upon his only begotten, that should have fallen upon you and I. You fail to understand the conversion of the believer, you see the believer is given a new nature, a new heart, one that is capable of loving GOD. You see salvation is a supernatural work of GOD that will NEVER fail, for we are confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will complete it until the day of Christ (Philippians 1:6). Let Israel in Exodus be your example, he will complete what he started, he knows no failure and Jesus will not loose his own, those whom the Father has given him. The Sheep is not the world nor all of mankind, but those whom the Father has given him, does the world follow his voice? Does the world listen to a stranger? No! Only his sheep will hear his voice and follow him (John 10:5). “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word." John 17:6 John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out." John 6:39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day." John 10:15 "As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep." Matthew 20:28 "Just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many." When did I ever say that men somehow cannot sin? He saved us through the washing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit of the holy spirit, in which he grants us to believe (Titus 3:5; Philippians 1:26). Now we still have our flesh, that wars against the spirit, and we aren't perfect, but we are a new creature. We are no longer enslaved to sin or life a lifestyle thereof, "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." (1John 3:9) We don't bear the fruits of death, but the fruits of the Spirit, "You shall know them by there fruits" (Matthew 7:20). By the life style they live. You said: "He grants repentance to those that believe, who are then the elect. This text has no chosen in it. Faith is also a gift from God to all men. It is part of the heritage of being created in the Divine Image." Philippians 1:29 "For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake." No the elect are the chosen before the foundations of the world, those who have been predestined to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will (Ephesians 1:4-5), it is granted on there behave to BELIEVE and to REPENT as Paul says in the text above, they are the elect, the chosen, thats what you fail to see. You said: And what has any of this to do with believers. God chose individual people for a lot of different things. It has nothing to do with chosing believers. In fact the reason God chose most of these individuals is that He saw the righteousness of these individuals. This goes way back to Able, Enoch, Noah, Abraham. You talk of studying the Bible, maybe you aught to know of what you speak before you make such wild assertions. Your response is in absolute contradiction to what Romans 9:11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls). "That the purpose of GOD according to ELECTION." Jacob was the one saved, not Esau, He choose him not because of any "righteousness" or "good" that he did, but it says that before they were born, he didn't look at there lives. Look at the lives of these individuals. Jacob could not escape GOD, because he loved him, he even became a cripple. However Esau had so much riches he didn't need Jacob, yet GOD hated him. We see the purpose of GOD according to election, that we who are elected are saved, not because GOD foresaw anything, but has chosen us according to the good pleasure of His Will. You said: Yes, and what you fail to understand, Hell does not even exist, except that Christ redeemed the world. He overcame death, the destruction of mankind. Read Gen 3:19. Do you believe dust has life? If one is to stand in judgement, one must first, be alive. He must be a human being, and not a pile of dust. Can you refute that understanding? Universalism anyone? Hell doesn't even exist? Christ redeemed the world? Where on earth do you find this at? Jesus was the one who gave us clarity on the doctrine of hell, only the elect have been redeemed, his sheep that he laid his life down for. All will stand in judgment and it will take the strength of GOD to stand before him, saved or lost, you will be like a tiny wax figurine in front of a blast furnace. Revelation 20:12-15 "And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." 2 Timothy 4:1 "I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom" You said: I do, but do you. You seem to limit its power to only some human beings. The Cross, the Work of Christ is universal in scope. We possess that new nature in the eschaton, but it is ONLY possible because of Christ. All men will be raised. Rom 6 is the baptism chapter. If you read further you will find that when we participate in that death and resurrection through baptism we become believers. Therein lies the difference. Man needs life first, before faith or any communion can be eternal. Since man could not do this, Christ did it for man. See all the texts I listed above. No human being is in bondage to death and sin any longer. We have been freed from it, for the sole purpose of being able to freely choose for whom we desire to be a slave. We can become slaves of Christ, or become slaves of Satan. Man is free to choose and it is this freedom and what we do with it on which we will be judged. I do NOT limit its power, the blood to cover the sins of every single human being so that they would be saved, because there is power in the blood but it will only be applied to the elect. Now we who are saved have been baptized into his death, and have died to sin, and now have been raised into the newness of life, he explains our conversion. How that we are no longer slaves to sin, we cannot serve it for it is indeed impossible because of the nature of the believer, how ever that does not make us sinless. No human being is in bondage to sin? On the contrary only we who are saved are not longer in bondage to sin, those who are not saved are in bondage to sin. That is what he is explaining, we (Those who are saved) are now under grace, not under the law. Not a slave to sin, but unto righteousness. You said: You have a knack of really twisting scripture. yes, man is responsible and the Work of Christ on the Cross made man responsible. We are no longer beholden to the condemnation of Adam, death. Christ overcame death for us. Rom 9:14-16 is pertaining to the fact that God had mercy upon mankind. All human beings. God consigned all to disobedience (death) Rom 11:32, just so He could be both merciful to all and just to all. What kind of a God would He be, if He would permit one human being who bears His Image to be lost to death. Even losing one would mean that Satan has more power than God. The defeat of Satan was through the power of Satan which is death. He is just that each person would freely choose his eternal fate. Every single human being will be judged on the basis of the Grace that he was given and what he did with that Gift. You have a knack for really misunderstanding scripture. Only the saved are no longer under the condemnation of sin (romans 8:1), we now have life in the Son. Romans 9:14-16 tells us GODs sovereign mercy in the lives of individuals. We see GODs Justice in casting someone who is guilty into to hell, how does that mean Satan has more power than GOD? If satan had more power then he would be able to allow Christ's Sheep, the elect, to be lost, but Christ told us none of his sheep will be lost. He will judge with justice and righteous and we see that NON are righteous, only we who are saved have the righteousness of another, our LORD Jesus Christ. But those who do not have the Son will be judged guilty. For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of GOD (Romans 3:23; c.f. Romans 3:19-20) yet you and I have no idea what this verse means and how terrifying it is. When reading scripture look at the context of it, Romans 11:32 is talking about Israel that has rejected the messiah. You said: It is right on. You have made a misapplication of the verses. No you misunderstand these verses he raise up pharaoh for one reason, to destroy him and show his power through him, that his name might be great among the nations. Again you think to much of men, he gets glory and uses men, for his own purpose, he works all things according to his will. You said: It's confirming what I am saying. You have again, misinterpreted a goodly portion of the Bible. To bad you did not read and understand vs 32. You claim Christ lost no one, yet you want Him to destroy His own Creatures bearing His Image. No what you don't understand is why in the first place would Paul ask the question, why then does GOD still blame us? For who can resist his will? He imputes this question because he just told us that GOD raised up pharaoh that he might show his power in destroying Him and he hardened his heart, and did not show mercy on him. So he asks why then does he find fault, how can resist his will? Paul answers back in Verses 19-21, who are you O'man to talk back to GOD? Shall the thing that was formed say to him that formed it, why have you make me like this? Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? Christ will not lose one of his sheep, meaning that they will not be lost, but they will be saved, "All that the father has given me WILL COME TO ME." The world will not come to him, only his sheep. You said: On the contrary its you who do not understand the purpose and men of GOD creating man, again its for His Glory that he created everything, that he might be glory for himse

the discourse of Rom 9-11 is not even about believers. It is addressing whom Christ came to save. The discourse is a simulation of Paul speaking to hypotheical Judiazers. The Jews were under the impression that they and they only were to receive the blessings of God. They were to receive on the basis of natural birth. If one was a Jew, one was automatically saved. Then Paul clearly points out that the salvation of an individual is not by any other means than by faith. He states that "they are not all Israel who are of Israel. vs 6. He goes on to further delineate the difference. The summation of that whole discourse is that God will have mercy upon all. Rom 11:32. He makes the equation with Adam. God allowed or consigned all to disobedience, (death) so that He might have mercy upon all. It is the salvation of mankind, the human race, that is in sight in this discourse, not believers at all. This goes back to what Paul has already declared in Rom 5:18-19. It is the meaning and understanding of the Incarnation of Christ. Christ assuming our fallen human natures to raise them from mortal to immortality. The fall of man, our human natures, precluded man having an eternal union or communion with God, for which we were created. Since man cannot give himself life, Christ became man/God, through the Incarnation to bring life back to man. So that man could freely, for an eternity, join with God starting even in this life. That is NOT what Romans 9-11 is about at all! The main question that is being implied of the text is that if GOD has promised Israel all of these things, given them the law, promises, etc. then why are so many rejecting Christ and being cut off? In other words if GOD didn't uphold hold his promises in the Old Tesament, then what makes us think he will do so in this new testament? So the Holy Spirit through Paul, shows the freedom/soverignty and justice of GOD in election, the reasoning by Israels rejection and elaborates Israel's current condition. It is one of the most important pieces of scripture to have when dealing with the justice of GOD. It is also one of the toughest texts in all of Scripture. He goes on explaing how GOD has went to the gentiles and his purpse in doing so, and He explains through the Old Tesament, how this was something shown through the prophets, psalms and so on.

You need to do a study upon the atributes of GOD, and spend less time posting and more time reading your bible. The bible tells us in so many places that GOD is angry with sinful men: Psalm 11:5 "The LORD examines the righteous, but the wicked and those who love violence his soul hates." Psalm 7:11 "God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day." Romans 1:18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness." Yet his love is so strong, that he even loves the objects of his own wrath. You need to read the context of Romans 11:32, he is talking about Israel, and how he went to the gentiles, so that they might come to him and provoke them to jealousy. No what needed to be appeased was his wrath and justice, because if GOD is just, then he CANNOT forgive you. Thats what his Son did. The father poured out his wrath upon his Son, and his son took up that cup and drank it, and not one drop came out, thus reconciling us back to GOD. First of all, after reading all of this, you think too much of men. What you need to realize is that GOD did not become lonely, and wanted to create man for that purpose. GOD created man for His GLORY, and yes wants to have fellowship with man so that they may know how great he truly is. Second you dont understand the depravity of man, and how evil Sin really is. Let me ask you a question, if we are depraved, evil, and dead in our sins, how in the world could you ever get the idea that we could, in our lost state, ever love a infintly holy and righteous GOD? For indeed when we are saved, we are given a new heart of flesh, that is capable of loving GOD (Ezekiel 11:19, 36:26, 2 Corinthians 5:17). Third Christ died for his PEOPLE, the ELECT, while yes his blood could efficiently cover the sins of every man that ever lived, it will only be applied to the elect. He grants repentance and belief to those who are his own, who have been choosen (Philippians 1:29). Let me ask you a question, where was Jacobs choice? Where was Esau's choice? (Romans 9:10-15) And where are you getting your scripture from to support all that you have just stated? Christ gives life to dead men, those who have been ransomed, his sheep. Hell is where the abomidable, disobidient, wicked man goes to be punished of his Sin. Where did Christ ever say that he could loose those whom his father had given him? He said just the opposite, read all of John 6. Ok, you need to understand the power of the cross dear friend. When we are saved, we are given a new nature (2 Cor. 5:17), no longer in bondage to sin (Romans 6:6), we who are in Christ haved died to sin (Romans 6:2). If the Holy Spirit, through Paul, tells us that we are dead to sin, given a new nature, and have the Holy Spirit, how could a saved person ever have sin root in there lives? Its impossible, do grapes grow on thorns or figs from thistles? Of course not its IMPOSSIBLE, the Power of GOD will keep his sheep from ever turning away from Him, thats what he ment in Jeremiah 32:40. He will put the fear of him in us, so that we will not turn away from him, and if one goes astray he will come for that lost sheep and discipline him. He will not loose those whom the father has given him (John 6:39; 10:29). Your posts are contradicting what scripture says. While yes, GOD calls all men every to repent (Acts 17:30), we are in capible to do so, unless GOD intervene's (Philippians 1:29). Now then are those who reject Christ, guilty and responsible? Yes they are, "What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy." (Romans 9:14-16). "For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: 'I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden." (Romans 9:17-18) Seems to me like Paul has a different view than yours. "One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?" Romans 9:19-21 Read all of Romans 9, because its contradicting all that you are saying and it will provide clarity on GODs Soverignty and Justice in election. We know that GOD will judge all men, those who are saved (2 Cor. 5:10) and those who are prepared for destruction, but we dont know how he will judge: "Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!" Romans 11:33 On the contrary its you who do not understand the purpose and men of GOD creating man, again its for His Glory that he created everything, that he might get glory in all things, and that all may know that he is GOD.

Thaddaeus, Thanks for your reply. Your definition of apostasy is unbiblical. Apostasy is someone who knows the truth, and for a while believes that truth, but rejects it and turns away from it, like Judas Iscariot for example. He knew the truth, but he betrayed the truth, and turn from it, proving that he didn't belong to Him as Jesus said many times in the Gospels (Read John 13:18; 6:70-71). One thing you are failing to understand is that when John says in 1 John 2:19, "but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us." meaning that those who went out that didn't continue with them weren't saved, they weren't "one of us" for if they were "one of us" they would have continued with us if they were saved. I'll give you another example, the parable of the sower. We see that 1 out of the 4 seeds sown were saved, the rest were either scourged by the sun, eaten up by birds, or were choked by the thorns, and some of the heard the gospel and rejoiced but turned away because of persecution, or worldly desires, thats apostasy, only one of the seeds were saved because its fruit grew. The some seamed to have grown a little, but in the end died out, "manifesting themselves that they were not of us." Your reply here goes directly against Matthew 7:21-23.

I disagree, Yes we see professing believers back then, and now leaving who have claimed to "de-convert" or now walk away from the faith, PROVING what scripture says about them, that they were NEVER truly saved. The term for it is Apostasy or Apostates. Let me give you an example of where I am coming from. 1 John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us." First we need to know the context of this passage, John is writing to believers who were being attacked by false teachers belonging to a group called "Gnosticism" which is a cult that still exist today. The whole letter is basically a test to show us what a saved believer's life style looks like, and what a lost so called professing believer lives. We read in the text above, "for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us" meaning if they were TRULY saved, they would have preserved because he who began a good work in you will complete it until the day of Christ (Philippians 1:6). And again the LORD says in John 10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand." and, John 6:39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day." Those who were "given to him" by the Father is the sheep, those who were chosen, taken out of the world, that belong to Christ, our great Shepard. Now looking at Hebrews, again we need to look at the context and background information of the new testament letter. The writer of Hebrews (whoever it is) wrote to a group of Jewish believers that were backsliding and turning away from the faith, so see scriptures like Hebrews 10:26 "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins." The writer is talking about if we continue to live in a life style of sin, keep willing fully sin, we never were TRULY saved, as John said: 1 John 2:3 "Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments." Now we obviously know that the believer isnt sinless, or perfect (1 John 1:8, 10), but he CANNOT, for indeed it is IMPOSSIBLE (against his nature), for the believer to keep living a life style of sin and disobedience (1 John 3:9; Matthew 7:15-20)

And I think you ought to look at the context too, in which Jesus was speaking starting from verse 1 and going on to v12. Here Jesus is telling His disciples to obey the pharisees in the Law, but not to act like them because "Everything they do is done for men to see" and "they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.'". Jesus is warning the disciples not to get proud in their positions, but to stay humble; because having people refer to you by a title can blow yor ego up a bit too much. "The greatest among you will be your servant. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted." Yes, I did read that. But the message still remains, we have only one Father and only one Teacher. So you won't listen to anyone else who teaches you about Scriptures? Despite Ephesians telling us that some are teachers? I think we can all agree that there has never TRULY been a teacher, or a prophet, or a priest, they were only types of the one to come, that is the Christ. However we read in scripture “When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men.” (Psalm 68:18; Ephesians 4:8). These gifts he gives, some to be prophets, preachers, teachers, evangelists, etc..(Ephesians 4:9-12) and when some are ordained to teach, if its biblically accurate and sound its not as though man is speaking but GOD speaking through the man who has the Holy Spirit in him. What do i mean? Ephesians 4:20 "But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus." Now we know from the context of this New Testament letter that this letter to the Ephesians was obviously written after the ascension of our LORD, so then what does he men by "If you indeed heard him and have been taught by him" ? They heard him and were taught by him through those whom he had ordained to be teachers, even more so, believers that are truly saved know the good doctrine, so again its the LORD speaking through men. Hope this helps, Burn

Just like you Jesus followers thought he was the God but Jesus himself always said that he was sent from God. People only relate to what they can see so naturally they thought he was a God. He kept telling them in parables that he wasn't God but the messenger of God. If it makes you sleep at night you can keep your idol worshipping of man. Jesus said the words I speak are of my fathers. Why would God, who you say is a jealous God need a partner? The problem is no where in the bible do you see a book of Jesus. All the books were scribed decades after the death of Jesus. A child of God was not the birth child of god. Show me in the bible were it says that GOD came from the heavens and overshadowed Mary. You will see it was an Angel. The same that visited elizabeth the mother of John the baptist. First of all stop spreading that false doctrine of yours that is NOT in the bible. Second the jew's DIDNT misunderstand him, they completely understood what He said about himself, because they were blinded, though having ears they could not hear, though they had eyes, they could not see(Isaiah 6:9-10), fulfilling what the prophet Isaiah said about him in all of Chapter 53, and his testimony was not found in them, because they didn't belong to him and were not his sheep. John 10:31 "Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” 33 The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?" We see here CLEARLY in John 10 that the Jews understood what he was saying but they didn't believe him: John 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” Next the LORD of glory Jesus said himself to the Jew's that he was I AM: John 8:58-59 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM. 59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by." Exodus 3:14 "And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” Again we CLEARLY see here that he is telling us that he is the great I AM in the old testament. There is GOD the Father, GOD the Son and GOD the Holy Spirit, 1 GOD, three different persons (Trinity) this doctrine wasn't created recently read the creeds and confessions of the early church they said the same things (Google the Nicene Creed). Oh and to clear up why Jesus had to pray, simply because he was a man and he had to pray to GOD, and the scripture in Matthew 19:17, Mark 10:18, and Luke 18:19 when Jesus said "So Jesus said to him, 'Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God." What you need to learn is to read the context of scripture and what he is talking about, first he is talking to a lawyer, and simply saying He isn't just some mere crupt/hypocritical rabbi, but GOD. You see there has never TRULY been a real teacher, or a real priest or a real prophet or rabbi, these are all types of the one to come, that is the perfect one, Jesus the Christ. (Read Matthew 23:8-10; Hebrews 10:11-14). "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1 Other places in the bible that tell us he we both GOD (1 John 5:7, 20; 1 Timothy 3:16; Romans 9:5) and Man (1 Timothy 2:5; John 1:14) We are to honor the son just like we honor the father (John 5:23). John 5:19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner." If Jesus wasn't GOD and equal with the father in NATURE (His Deity) not PERSON, then could he do what he sees the Father do? And who said that GOD needed a partner, or what Christian told you that GOD had a partner in the first place to make you initiate that question?

God did not come to earth as a man, Christ came to earth as a man. You realize that contradicts what the bible says right?

He doesn't have to, He's very persuasive. who quoted from John 3:16 up there?? My bible states something different What bible are you using? My version14~~~And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so the must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever beliveth in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever beliveth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him MIGHT be saved oh oh I think I may have misread something. salvation depends on our willingness to say yes Lord Yes... We send ourselves to Hell not God. He did not create hell for man....oh well While yes we choose him, its revealed to us in scripture that our "choice" is really not our "choice" but GODs SOVEREIGN WILL behind our choice. John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you." Romans 9:11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.” Where was Jacob and Esau's choice? Verse 9 above shows us GODs grace according to election, not our works, not anything we do, it says that "before they were born, or did any good or evil" so GOD did not look at there lives in order to make his election, it was by his sovereign will (Unconditionally) Romans 9:15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens." In this text we see CLEARLY the LORD's sovereignty in Pharaoh, that he raised him up for one reason that he MIGHT GET GLORY TO HIS NAME, so therefore he showed his power in Him and destroyed him. Ephesians 1:4 "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved." We see here at the beginning of this New Testament letter that GOD choose us who believe, those who have believed, and those who will believe in HIM before the foundation of the world (we are his elect), to be predestined us to adoptions as sons by Jesus Christ Himself, according to the good pleasure of his will. Now I say these things not to cause strife or arguement, only that you would see his glorious sovereignty in that He can do ANYTHING according to the good pleasure of his will. Now does he will for all men to be saved and repent? (1 Timothy 2:3-4) Yes he does! And so do I, I wish that EVERYONE would be saved, but I know that wont happen. "For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor?” “ Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?” Romans 11:34-35

Where's your evidence? Again, simply asserting something over and over without providing evidence makes your position as worthy of acknowledgment as a tabloid newspaper. Likewise, writing in bold doesn't increase the authority of your argument. Claims you can argue against but a changed life you cannot. I agree with Axe in that there is no other name given unto men by which we are saved, that is the name of Jesus and "He who has received His testimony has certified that God is true." [John 3:33] Those who are TRULY saved, and do belong to Him know the truth, for it is the truth that set them free, and like John said we who receive his testimony, who have been sanctified by the father, and preserved in Christ Jesus KNOW that GOD is true and we testify of him, against the lies that are being spread.

I didn't say it was. I was just pointing out when and how the apostasy crept into mainstream Christianity. Jude 1:4 "For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ." These apostasies and heresies have ALWAYS been around, in the old testament, even at the beginning of the early church. These are Satan's ministers and preachers, natural brute beast meant to be caught and destroyed (2 Peter 2:12). Many deny the trinity, the divinity of Christ, even the Holy Spirit as GOD, another things such as the Godhead, and other things that pertain to the TRUTH. They spread lies like a pandemic. John 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” The LORD Jesus Christ told us about them: "For false Christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect." (Matthew 24:24) Paul tells us in Acts 20:30 "Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves." ALWAYS in scripture do we see and are warned by this. The TRUTH is so vital, as the LORD said "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” (John 8:32) Thats why we are called to bear arms in this TRUTH war against the enemy, thats why its so important to get into the Word and equip ourselves with this truth, as Wayne said be like the bereans . Speaking the TRUTH in love, Burn

Well the problem is that it is not up to you decide if Jesus meant it in the absolute sense. The Bible uses it in the absolute sense every time and the context demands that He be understood that way EACH time, and you are impotent to demonstrate otherwise. Jesus was simply using "gods" to refer to authority of magistrates. You still have not explained why if Jesus is not God, did He receive worship after declaring that only God is to be worshipped and why he forgave sins in His own name when only God is able to forgive sins? God gave us to Jesus, that's why Jesus received worship. Same reason why he could forgive our sins. And it is up to us to decide, what he meant. This statement contradicts scripture. Isaiah 48:11 "For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it;For how should My name be profaned? And I will not give My glory to another." The only logical reasoning for why Jesus recieved worship, and praise from men was because, as the bible says, he IS GOD. It is incontravertable to say otherwise. Read John 1:1, which some people seem to ignore, or 1 John 5:7, 1 John 5:20, 1 Timothy 3:16, Romans 9:5, John 8:58-59, John 20:28 and so much more. Oh and to clarify Colossians 1:15 "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation." This does NOT mean that he was the first of GODs creation, that is a heresy, and doctrine of what Jehovah Witnesses teach. This simply implies that he is the only begotten of the father, and his supremacy in all things. Grace to all who read, Burn

It has everything to do with the Gospel. A mere man could not die for the sins of the world. If Jesus is not God, then he is no different than Mohammud or Buddha. He is nothing more than a good teacher. You still have not dealt with Jesus' own admission that He is God. I agree, a mere man could not atone for the sin of the world. But he was not a mere man. So, incase you are wondering what I DO believe of Jesus I will say this. I believe and proclaim that Jesus is the one and only true son of God, conceived of God's spirit, born of a virgin, inheriting the righteousness of God with all the attributes of perfection attributed to the Father, and without sin or blemish. I have no hesitation in saying He is my Lord & Saviour. You have just defined Him as God, but reject Him as God. That is a strange way your mind works. Jesus could not have the perfect attributes attributed to the Father and not be God, because God says, there is no one like Him. So for Jesus to have God the Father's attributes would make him like God. Furthermore, because you obvious don't know Hebrew, you don't understand what "Son of God" means. It does not mean that Jesus is the offspring of God. It is a title that denotes equality, in Hebrew. One has to some mighty fancy theological gymnastics to get around the Bible. If Jesus is your Lord and Savior, howcome you don't believe Him when He says He is God? Jesus caled him self "Son of man" , that kind of means is equal to us then, doesn't it? Yes he was again 100% man and 100% GOD. Son of Man and Son of GOD, he was GOD incarnate, and a man (John 1:1; 1 Timothy 2:5) also called the hypostatic union for you theologians . This is what God showed to Jesus Christ, so that he could tell his servants what must happen soon. (Revelation 1.1) Even when Jesus is up in heaven he still does what GOD wants him to do. If that makes him God or not it's up to us individualy to figure out. Please my brother don't listen to the church and the priests . Listen to your Bible. God bless you. Thanks for your reply, As a matter of fact I do listen to my bible . And as I read my bible I cannot refuse the fact that scripture indeed says that Jesus is both GOD and Man. And I indeed am not smart so if I know something to be true, its not b/c I figured it out, but that the Spirit of truth has revealed it to me. 1 John 5:20 "And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." Romans 9:5 "of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen." Philippians 5:5 "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross." Let me know if you need more scriptures . And to answer your original question again, yes he was man, and because he was a man, when we are saved we receive the Holy Spirit, a spirit of adoption by which we cry 'abba, father' and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ (Romans 8:15, 17) making him both our GOD and are elder brother, and he is not ashamed to call us brethren (Hebrews 2:11-12; Psalm 22:22). He is our king, our LORD, our GOD, and we are his servants, in which we live whether present or absent from him, we make it our aim to please him (2 Cor. 5:8-9). He came not to do his will, nor seek his own honor, or fame, but the will of the father, healing, and doing many miracles in the name of the Father (John 6:38; John 8:49, 54 also Deuteronomy 18:18).