BurnForChrist

The purpose of this thread is to discuss and explain what your view is in regards to the fallen nature of man in salvation. Does man co-operate with the grace of God? Or must God first do a work? The two popular terms for these views are monergism and synergism. Monergism - is the doctrine that the Holy Spirit is the only agent who effects regeneration of Christians (Westminster Dictionary of Theological Terms). Synergism - is the doctrine that the act of being born again is achieved through a combination of human will and divine grace. (Source) Just in case these terms may seem confusing let me further explain both of them. Synergism, in other words, states that in order for a man to be saved, he must add faith in co-operation with the grace of God to contribute to his salvation. Synergists will explain that Gods grace will take us part way and so we must determine the outcome. In contrast to synergism, monergism teaches that salvation is entirely wrought and brought about by God alone and that man cannot contribute to the price of his own salvation. Furthermore, it teaches that faith itself is a gift of God which is not the cause but rather the result of a regenerating work of God the Spirit in the life of a person. So where do you stand? And can you use scripture to show it? Does man have to co-operate with the grace of God or does God alone do a work in man which causes saving faith? Burn

I remember first hearing about Bill Weise then about Mary K. Baxter and all I can conclude is that they are false. If we read 2nd Corinthians 12 we have an account of Paul refering to himself in the third person. He writes that "2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a man was caught up to the third heaven. 3And I know how such a man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows-- 4 was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak." Written here Paul gives an account of "a man" that was caught up in the third heaven and that when he did he heard and undoubtingly saw things which a man is not "permitted to speak". So if the things they saw, and heard were things that men are not permitted to speak, why do they claim God showed them to tell if it is not permitted to do so according to scripture? Heaven is not a place in which people who are scared of hell go, but a place where people who love to worship and believe in Jesus go. Burn

Satan will never be redeemed because GOD will not send him a savior. This is a point most people don't realize. That is GOD does does not have to save us, nor did he have to send his Son. Angels are more excellent and stronger than us (2 Peter 2:11) yet "God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment," 2nd Peter 2:4. So to put it simply, Satan cannot be redeemed because God in his sovereign good pleasure has decided not to save Him. Burn

Technically you could. Molinists are more in line with the Arminian view. Molinism teaches God chooses who will be saved because He knows who would choose Him. To put it accurately, Molinists are philosophically sophisticated Arminians.

No if God is love He MUST therefore hate. If I love holiness, then I must hate unholiness. If I love righteousness, then I must hate sin. You cannot separate the two and you blatantly ignore what Psalm 5:5, & 11:5 which teaches God does hate sinners. If this is indeed your God then it is not the same God of the bible. Romans 5:8 "but God commendeth his love toward us that while we were yet in sinners, Christ died for us." The "us" in here is not all, but who is Paul writing to? The Church at Rome, so this does not back up what you are saying. This text teaches the love of God shown for all of "us" who believe. 1st John 2:2 "And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world." Websters dictionary defines Propitiation as "The act of appeasing wrath and conciliating the favor of an offended person." To believe that all of the entire worlds sins have been propitiated and Gods wrath has been appeased, is to believe that no one is going to hell. How can a person suffer for sins that have already been appeased? That is rather injustice! So the text cannot mean what you are asserting it to mean. As I have repeatingly said, and have demonstrated through scripture that God does have a love for the lost but it is not the same love as He has for His elect. This is the second time you have blatantly ignored and failed to respond to what I had posted. I can see that this is not fruitful, but I do hope others see what scripture truly teaches, and so I will cease to respond to you. Burn

Ezekiel you missed the point as to what I was saying. I never said God doesn't love even the lost, but not in the same sense He loves His elect. How does Christ dying for us believers endorse that? GOD being no respecter of persons has to do with justice, and being impartial with all men, it doesn't have anything to do with the subject. Also you haven't even responded to the scripture I posted. Burn

God loves us all the same, He loves the sinner just as much as the Christian, but the sinner is still going to hell. How much God loves us, does not determine our standing with Him. Having faith in God and in Christ and being obedient to His word does. Scripture reference please? And I would have you know 2000 years of Christian history would disagree with you there. Let us not forget these seemingly ignored passages in scripture: Psalm 5:5 "The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity." Psalm 11:5 "The LORD tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates." So in a sense God does love, and show mercy to the lost, but do not forget there is a hate for those who love violence, and who do iniquity, which would be all who are lost. Also, Ephesians 1 3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved." The "us" here is not all of mankind, it cannot be. But rather this is believers, and here we have the love of God expressed in such a way, that is not towards the lost, but rather this love is greater, and only for believers. We read in Hebrews 12:5-6 5

Here is your error. You erroneously assume that this text teaches we can be condemned if you one doesn't follow after the end of the text. But rather this text teaches the evidence of having been freed from the law of sin and death, is a life lived after the spirit because they are a new creation. Those that are in Christ are not condemned nor will they be condemned because of the perfect work of Jesus upon the cross on their behalf. Burn What the text says is those that are led after the flesh are the enemies of God. Do you believe God's enemies are going to heaven uncondemned? That is not only what the text teaches, however it is true that those who are in the flesh, that live after the flesh are at enmity against God. But believers are not, nor can they be moved from a state of justification, to a state of damnation. If our debt and account with which we had has been paid and settled, now being free, how can we be punished again for sins that were yet already atoned for? And if we can be condemned, then did Christ truly pay all our debt? Burn

Here is your error. You erroneously assume that this text teaches we can be condemned if you one doesn't follow after the end of the text. But rather this text teaches the evidence of having been freed from the law of sin and death, is a life lived after the spirit because they are a new creation. Those that are in Christ are not condemned nor will they be condemned because of the perfect work of Jesus upon the cross on their behalf. Burn

In correspondence with other scriptures, which are many, it is most assuredly unconditional. John 6 37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day." Gen 28:15 "Behold, I am with you and will keep you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land. For I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you." Philippians 1:6 "For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus."

Gal 6:1 "Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. Gal 6:2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. Gal 6:3 For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. Gal 6:4 But let each one test his own work, and then his reason to boast will be in himself alone and not in his neighbor. Gal 6:5 For each will have to bear his own load." Rom 15:1 "We who are strong have an obligation to bear with the failings of the weak, and not to please ourselves. Rom 15:2 Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, to build him up. Rom 15:3 For Christ did not please himself, but as it is written, 'The reproaches of those who reproached you fell on me.'" The idea conveyed here is to not seek our own good, but the good of our weak brothers who struggle or are caught in sin. This presents thus a picture of the love and law of Christ, that we would "love one another" (John 13:34) as Christ commands and if we do, that love will not "seek its own" but the good of others (1 Cor. 13:5-7). Paul provides and quotes an explanation of this truth in the psalms that are in actuality a prophecy concerning the suffering and atonement of Christ on behalf of weak, poor and dead sinners. Concerning the end of Galatians 6:5, the meaning, I believe is to be understood as to what Albert Barnes has said: "In the great day every man shall be properly rewarded. Knowing this, we should be little anxious about the sentiments of others, and should seek to maintain a good conscience toward God and man. The design of this passage is, to prevent people from forming an improper estimate of themselves, and of the opinions of others. Let a man feel that he is soon to stand at the judgment-seat, and it will do much to keep him from an improper estimate of his own importance; let him feel that he must give an account to God, and that his great interests are to be determined by the estimate which God will affix to his character, and it will teach him that the opinion of the world is of little value." Burn

This passage in the past has often, seemingly, confused me. But taking a deeper look into the meaning of the passage, I agree with what Albert Barnes wrote (this is not to mean that I disagree with anyones post thus far, but rather I agree to what has been written): "Which was preached to every creature which is under heaven - It cannot be supposed that it was literally true that every creature under heaven had actually heard the gospel. But this may mean: (1) That it was designed to be preached to every creature, or that the commission to make it known embraced everyone, and that, so far as the provisions of the gospel are concerned, it may be said that it was a system proclaimed to all mankind; see Mar_16:15. If a vast army, or the inhabitants of a distant province, were in rebellion against a government, and a proclamation of pardon were issued, it would not be improper to say that it was made to every one of them, though, as a matter of fact, it might not be true that everyone in the remote parts of the army or province had actually heard of it. (2) the gospel in the time of Paul seems to have been so extensively preached, that it might be said that it was proclaimed to everybody. All known countries appear to have been visited; and so zealous and laborious had been the heralds of salvation, that it might be said that the message had been proclaimed to all the world; see Col_1:6; compare the notes at Mat_24:14." Burn

oh, I agree 100%, but you are the one putting tying works into salvation, not me. Although good works cannot save you outside of your faith in Christ, your evil works can condemn you whether you have faith in Christ or not. So let me get this straight, my good works outside of Christ cannot save me outside of my faith in Christ, but my evil works can condemn me even if I have faith or not? So then what saves me? And if my good works are in my faith in Christ does that merit me salvation? If it doesn't then what merits salvation? I think its quite clear that your soteriology is absolutely confusing and man-centered because its faith plus something. If its not faith alone, then Christs sacrifice wasnt enough, even when he said "it is finished," John 19:30.

you are adding a requirment for works for salvation, and that is un-Biblical Actually I am not adding it and it is biblical. James 2:24 You see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith only. This does not mean in any way, shape, form or fashion that you must keep your salvation in order to be saved. James condemns the idea, in this passage, that saving faith is separate from good works or that you can have saving faith and not have good works. Rather it is the product, the result or effect of saving faith. In other words the evidence that GOD has saved you and you have believed unto eternal life you will live a new lifestyle in obedience to God. These good works do not merit nor earn salvation for anyone because that would be contrary to what Ephesians 2:8-9 says. But rather the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us who believe. (Romans 4:1-8, Philippians 3:9, & 1st Cor. 1:30). The Apostle John teaches this in his first epistle in chapter 1 verse 6. It reads, "If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth," 1John 1:6. So here he says if we "say" or profess to be Christians and to believe in Jesus Christ and yet live a life contrary to that profession then we are liars. Why? Because if one has truly been regenerated by the Holy Spirit and has believed to everlasting life it is impossible to live a life the same as when he was a lost child of wrath. He does not have and live like an old creature but lives like a new creature because he is a new creature. 2nd Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come." And with this new nature, can it perish? 1st Peter 1:23 "For you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God." Here it is incontrovertibly taught that the seed which we have been born, cannot perish but will abide and remain. Therefore he cannot fall away and loose his salvation. Again it says, 1 John 3:9 "No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." Yet another text that teaches not that one who is born of God lives in sinless perfection but that his lifestyle is not drowned in besetting sins, nor continually practicing sin. Rather he lives a life that "walks in the light" (1 John 1:7). This is the evidence of a new creature, and indeed this he will always do not being able to fall away to loose his salvation because "he has been born of God". And the very same God who has saved that person will keep that person saved because salvation is all about the power of GOD demonstrating the glory of God. So here is just a few of the many scriptures that teach that "He who began a good work in you will complete it until the day of Christ," Philippians 1:6 and that Jesus will not loose the sheep the Father has given Him according to John 6:39. As Charles Spurgeon said, "If ever it should come to pass, That sheep of Christ might fall away, My fickle, feeble soul, alas! Would fall a thousand times a day." Burn

After reading the article I can only say that the author who wrote that is seriously in dangerous error. He has misinterpreted the parable he uses and completely ignores incontrovertible truths that scripture teaches about all who believe in Jesus Christ. The greatest thing about heaven for all believers is that we get God. He is our treasure, our portion and our inheritance. What else could we want? Burn

I like both ESV and NASB. However when it comes to more accurate literal translation I prefer the NASB. So really I would cross parallel passages from both ESV and NASB. Burn

On the contrary John Calvin didnt create anything as far as TULIP. In fact he didn't even write or originate the points. So please dont make the misconception as every else does that Calvin made up the 5 Points when it was in response to Arminianism by men after Calvin had already died. Also the 5 Points then were not even "created" as if they were some new doctrine in church history. They explained best as what the scriptures revealed and taught as far as Salvation, the depravity of man, election, sanctification, etc. Burn

On the contrary your view doesn't make sense. My view, as I posted, corresponded with 1st John, that one of the evidences and assurances of ones salvation is by there love for the brethren, those of the household of faith. And more then just 1st John: Luke 8:20 And he was told, "Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see you." Luke 8:21 But he answered them, "My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it!" Heb 2:10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering. Heb 2:11 For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers, Heb 2:12 saying, "I will tell of your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise." The problem is your not seeing that the point that is being made. What the righteous did, the fruit of their lives manifested that they were sheep. They bore good fruit because they believed. They were sanctified and lived a sanctified life. You cant be a new creation and not act like a new creature. Perhaps John Gill explained it best, "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me: which is to be understood, not in so limited a sense, as to regard only the apostles, and the least of them, for these were not the only brethren of Christ; nor in so large a sense, as to include all in human nature; but the saints only, the children of God, and household of faith: for though acts of charity and humanity are to be done to all men, yet especially to these; and indeed, these only can be considered as the brethren of Christ, who are born of God, and do the will of Christ; for such he accounts his mother, brethren, and sisters; and who are not only of the same human nature, but in the same covenant with him, and the sons of God, not by nature, as he is the Son of God, but by adoption, and so are heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ: now he that does any of the above acts of kindness to these "brethren" of Christ, and because they stand in such a relation to him, even the "least" of them: though he is not an apostle, or a martyr, or a preacher of the Gospel, or has any considerable gifts and abilities for usefulness, but is a weak believer in spiritual things, as well as poor in temporal things; and though it is but to "one" of these opportunity and circumstances not allowing it to be done to more; yet as such is the humility and condescension of this great king, as to account such mean persons his brethren; such also is his grace and goodness, as to reckon every instance of kindness and respect shown to them, as done to himself in person; and will take notice of it, accept and reward it, as if it had been so done."

Actually, Jesus is talking about what we do to HIS bretheren after the flesh, the Jewish people. Jesus separates the sheep and the goats on the basis of how they treated the Jewish people. Jesus in Matt. 25 is referring to the judgment of the nations concerning their treatment of Israel from the book of Joel. It is referring to the judgment of the nations in the valley of Jehoshaphat. Actually no. There is nothing in this text that indicates that these are only the jewish people. These are Christians, the elect. We know this by judgment. The blessed ones (the Christians), although they are to do charitable acts to all men, did these deeds to other Christians. The "brothers" in the text that the LORD identifies himself with are the saints not the ones after the flesh, there is no evidence in the text for that. You can disagree I don't care, but I don't want it to turn into a huge debate into something that has nothing to do with the thread. Grace to you from the LORD, Burn

As I said no thats not the contextual meaning of what the LORD is saying. Although that is a good thing and we should do that, The LORD Jesus is saying that what we do to the brethren (as in believers not all of mankind) we also do to Him. This is evidence of salvation, that is a love for the brothers and sisters in Christ. Not that we shouldn't love the lost or neglect them but a greater deeper love for the brethren. John teaches this in his 1st Epistle, 1Jn 4:20 If anyone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. 1Jn 4:21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother. 1Jn 3:15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1Jn 3:16 By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers. 1Jn 3:17 But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him? Burn

werent you the one that hears voices inside yourself? so what is it telling you? and dont be doing no tongue-habakaukkauakkaka-shalamlalalal-leggo-my-eggo...just tell me in english Verses in Matthew 25:31 thru 40 were quoted and you responded with this question. You apparently see something other than the obvious, so I asked you "Who do you think He's talking too?". It's not a difficult question. You plainly see that He's talking to someone other than those who helped the poor....I just asked who. Didn't mean to throw you for a loop there. If I may explain. The verses meaning isnt necesarily talking about feeding the poor, or visiting people in prison. Although we should do these things yes. The point the LORD is trying to make is that of loving the brethren as evidence of conversion. Matthew 25:40 "The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'" During this time and even in places today if you go to a 3rd world prison as a Christian they scarecly feed you, mostly likely dont cloth you and hate you. So if you go to feed, clothe and help them you yourself will be targeted as a Christian risking your own life. Do you see what he means by this? Ryan

It means that you base your entire understanding of Christianity on 2 verses. To understand the "proper Biblical hermeneutics" of these two verses they need to be kept in their proper context. To do so you have to start in verse 1 and continue to verse 10. No it doesn't mean that and it doesn't surprise me that you would avoid the question considering how false your soteriological position is. And to look at the context of the passage its quite clear that salvation is not based on our works, obedience or keeping of any law or any human effort. But rather by faith alone in Jesus Christ. To say that more is needed is to undermined the sacrifice that Jesus gave. In fact Paul makes the same point in His letter of Galatians, for if "righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose" (Gal. 2:21). Rom 3:27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Burn

This is an example of how an erroneous understanding of a certain verse can create a kind of legal approach to the Christian life. This verses does not teach that maintaining (abiding in) certain doctrines assures the believer's eternal life. This is why having a proper Biblical hermeneutic is so important. In the Greek the word that is rendered "transgress" means "to go beyond, to overstep" and the word that is rendered "doctrine" as in "doctrine of Christ" means "teaching of Christ." In context with verses 7-8 this verse talks of the deceivers who deny Christ coming in the flesh (v. 7). So in verse 9, then, the "teaching of Christ" is "Christ has come in the flesh." Therefore, this verses means that those who "go beyond" the teaching of Christ, and those that do not remain (abide) in the teaching of Christ, do not have God, or "have never had God" in the first place. This verse follows verses 7-8 as a warning to the Corinthian believers of false teachers, Antichrists. Whats sad is John wrote this letter in response to an early church heresy and now its being interpreted to fit false doctrine. deut31:12 said "Also, we see here that the righteous are judged like the sinners for what they did in this life under the same things. What Jesus was doing was letting us know that there are things in our lives that we will be judged for that will determine if we go to heaven or hell." What does "saved by grace through faith" and "not a result of works, so that no one may boast" (Eph. 2:8, 9) mean to you? Burn

Amen! I wanter a preacher who dwells in the presence of God, He isn't afraid to preach truth, daily in scripture seeking out God, and Has had the Word of God burned in His heart. As far as education goes, its good to have a knowledge of church history, men of old, but we often put what is subordinate over that which is primarily important. Burn

Basically their are three popular views regarding the LORDs supper today. 1.) Transubstantiation - The theory accepted by Catholicism, that in the Lord's Supper, the elements are transformed into the actual body and blood of Jesus. However, there is no perceptible or measurable change in the elements. The transformation occurs during the Mass at the elevation of the elements by the priest. (1) 2.) Consubstantiation - It means an inclusion of one substance in another where the body and blood of Christ co-exist in the elements of the Supper. It suggests that a third substance is formed. The body and blood of Christ are "in, with, and under" the elements. There is no permanent relationship with the elements. Instead, the association is limited to the sacramental action. The transformation is effected by the Word of God and not by a priest. (2) 3.) The last view (which is what I hold) is that the bread and wine are symbolically referred to as the blood and body of Christ. It is not a literal transformation or a substitution/co-existing elemental change within the bread and wine. But rather that it is instituted by Jesus as remembrance and honoring of what he has done on the behalf of the believer. My question for everyone is, first, what do you hold or do you hold to something different? And why do you hold to that view? Can it be validated by scripture? Burn --------------------------------------- (1) - http://www.carm.org/dictionary/dic_t.htm#Transubstantiation (2) - http://www.carm.org/dictionary/dic_c-d.htm#Consubstatiation