AMB

Thanks for the reply my friend. It is interesting that you would think that I am questioning the integrity of our saviour by pointing out scriptures, but that is a point of view you've chosen to take. We are all here to grow, and we should do that in love. I didn't think you were questioning, I posed a problem that you haven't addressed. Christ said For by Grace are ye saved, through faith and that not of itself. It is the GIFT Of God, NOT OF WORKS, less any man should boast. If his blood is not sufficent for salvation, then that would make him a liar now wouldn't it! IF we say works are required, then we would be saying christ is a liar! Because he said salvation is a Gift and not even works is needed in the above verse! Jhn 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. Note the words Any man. That includes ones self. I posted in my last post the requirements to be able to walk away from that gift. Its impossible to do. You would have to have received the 9 gifts of the spirit before turning into apostacy. Name one person out there that has all 9 gifts. The above portion there you said, doesn't deny Eternal security. Yes there are rewards and there are judgements. But you cannot be tried at the Great White Throne. Then that would be a moot point if they are truely saved to begin with. Because if they are saved, God will remove them before they become in danger of apostacy. He will deliver their body to Satan and bring their spirit home. 1Cr 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. I would say they were never saved to begin with if they could taste of the spirit, taste of the word, taste of the baptism of the holy spirit.. there is no way they can turn away far enough to jeapordize their salvation. The problem with the belief that one can lose their salvation is that it leaves one to sacrifice christ multiple times. Oops you sin, so yo lose salvation, call upon christ again, get your salvation back, oops you sin again so your not saved. Personally, i think Christ has a better use of time than having a big eraser and using it in the book of life everytime someone sins.

I came across this also in my readings, it is from early church fathers, some of whom were companions of the apostles who wrote the NT: Let us then practice reighteousness so that we may be saved unto the end. Clement of Rome Even in the case of one who has done the greatest good deeds in his life, but at the end has run headlong into wickedness, all his former pains are profitless to him. For the climax of the drama, he has given up his part. Clement of Alexandria Some think that God is under a necessity of bestowing even on the unworthy what He has promised to give. So they turn His liberality into His slavery . . . For do not many aferwards fall out of grace? Is not this gift taken away from many? Tertullian A man may posses an acquired righteousness, from which it is possible for him to fall away. Origen Those who do not obey Him, being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons. Irenaeus I know these are not scripture so I am not protraying them as such, but just to point out that this discussion has been going on since His death, and these are just some of the thought of some of the early church fathers. Enjoy.

Yes it is scriptural, and while i don't have the time to go into it as it will take at least a month to go through all of it. There are around 25 passages that are misunderstood and are used to deny eternal security. There are far more passages that embrace eternal security. I just pointed out two passages in my post above in how they were used to try and disprove eternal security. They weren't written to christians in general but to jewish christians that were thinking they could just go back to the way things were. You know, give christianity a test drive, 30 day money back guarantee type of thing. The problem with all your passages that your posting is they deny the doctrine of christ. If you deny the doctrine of christ your in error! And if you deny the doctrine of christ then you are promoting false teaching/prophacies. The doctrine of Christ says that Christs sacrifice was enough to save us from our sins and give us everlasting life. Where does it say you have to work for a gift? A gift is a gift, something freely given, with no expectation of anything in return. For by Grace are ye saved, through faith and that not of itself. It is the GIFT Of God, NOT OF WORKS, less any man should boast. Is Christ a liar?? Either he said it was a gift, or he is a Liar. You my friend have a conundrum here. Thanks for the reply my friend. It is interesting that you would think that I am questioning the integrity of our saviour by pointing out scriptures, but that is a point of view you've chosen to take. We are all here to grow, and we should do that in love. From my viewpoint, right or wrong, I don't think someone walking away from Christ has anything to do with denying the doctrine of Christ . . . Christ is still faithful to those that endure. The gift is given, but you can deny a gift, you can walk away from a gift, if I don't recieve and treasure the gift then is it forced apon me? No. The gift itself is a treasure, that should be treasured, something we can not earn. I have not said we have to earn the gift, but we can walk away from the gift. Do you have all the gifts you ever been given? No, none of us do, but the ones we cherrish we keep, and we protect them and put them in a place of honor. The same is true with the gift of salvation, from what I beleive the scriptures are saying. I don't remember saying it wasn't a gift . . . why are you arguing that? I agree completely. Walking away from Christ does nothing to the integrity of the Word, or what He is willing to do. It is our will that deny's Him, not His doing. His gift is available to us, free, and it is given by faith, I agree completely, and I don't believe He would take it back, but the scriptures I quoted seem to indicate that we can walk away from our gift. Does the word not say faith without works is dead . . . and does not Phil 2:12 say to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. So yes, the gift is free and can be accepted by faith, but what we do with the gift will determine our outcome. Does it say the road is narrow because it will not have trials you'll have to work through. And what if I don't work our my salvation with fear and trembling and continue in sin and sit around saying I am saved by faith, he knows how weak I am, His grace is sufficient to me. I believe we need to press toward the prize. There are eternal rewards and judgements that we will all have to face. Of clarification, the word says it is the Holy Spirit that draws us to Him . . . so as long as something in you is asking the questions, and searching out truth, you would still be saved. Those that lose their salvation have no desire to get back into right standing with God. It is like they are completely shut off to His truth and influence. I once beleive OSAS, but those that choose to harden their hearts and walk away and deny him, and have no desire or inner conviction about knowing Him intimately, I believe they can walk away from their free gift. To agree with you, it is a free gift . . . but by me denying that gift and walking away from it does nothing to the person that gave me the gift . . . Jesus' integrity and the truth of the Word will always remain. In service to our King. Love you all.

I am just going to save a lot of typing and wasting of time and point out that if you believe that we can lose our salvation then you believe that christs sacrifice wasn't good enough to save us. Because if we can lose salvation, then we would sacrifice christ over and over and over again. The scriptures in Hebrews 6 1-8 and 10:27 were written to the hebrews or jews that had become christians because they were having doubts and considering going back to judaism and rejecting christianity. The author of hebrews was pointing out the pointlessness in that. Furthermore, the actions that would have to be done would prevent a christian from being able to lose salvation in that no christian has ever had all 9 gifts at one time, not even paul. Eliyahuw, Although your reply sounds good and very spiritual, is it scriptual? If what you say is true how would you explain these scriptures: Matthew 24:13 KJVA (13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. So those who

This post is intended for all those who do not believe in O S A S, and to whom I would like to make a challenge, but firstly I would ask if you accept that Scriptures does not disagree with itself, in other words, it cannot possibly both support and at the same time deny O S A S. I would like you to have a look at all the Bible verses given bellow, and taking each in turn show conclusively that they do not indicate that OS A S, is the truth. If you can do this, then I will without hesitation apologize for putting forward false teaching on this Forum, but remember, it must be all of the material bellow, and not just some of it. If you cannot do this then I suggest you do not post any more anti O S A S, material on this web site. Edwin Brain. (pabrain) Col 3:1 IF then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. Col 3:2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. Col 3:3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. Col 3:4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory. 2Ti 1:12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day. Jud 1:24 Now to Him who is able to keep you* from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, Psa 34:7 The angel* of the LORD encamps all around those who fear Him, And delivers them Phl 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ; Jhn 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. Jhn 10:28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. Jhn 10:29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. Jhn 10:30 "I and My Father are one." Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. Rom 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Rom 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Jhn 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. Jhn 6:38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. Jhn 6:39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. Jhn 6:40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day." Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure, 1Jo 5:11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 1Jo 5:12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1Jo 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. Jhn 17:2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should* give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. Jhn 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 1Th 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1Th 5:24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it. Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword Rom 8:36 As it is written: "For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."* Rom 8:37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, Rom 8:39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. The scripture that you quoted from me is a good starting point to show that a person can, fall from grace, lets look at the scripture that I posted above. First of all lets ask here who james is talking to. He is talking to Christiains. James 5:14-20 which says, 14 Are any among you sick? They should call for the elders of the church and have them pray over them, anointing them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And their prayer offered in faith will heal the sick, and the Lord will make them well. And anyone who has committed sins will be forgiven. 16 Confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The earnest prayer of a righteous person has great power and wonderful results. 17 Elijah was as human as we are, and yet when he prayed earnestly that no rain would fall, none fell for the next three and a half years! 18 Then he prayed for rain, and down it poured. The grass turned green, and the crops began to grow again. 19 My dear brothers and sisters, if anyone among you wanders away from the truth and is brought back again, 20 you can be sure that the one who brings that person back will save that sinner from death and bring about the forgiveness of many sins I'd like to see ya respond to the one above. there are other scriptures that show that one can fall from grace besides this one, but I don't see any satisfactory rebutal for James 5:14-20. If you rebute this one I'll move on to the next one. deal Hi spiritman. Thank you for your post of today at 7.30AM. As you have refused to take up the challenge I gave to you in my post of yesterday, an extract from which is given bellow. I see no reason to defend my position in respect of your quotation from James. "I would like you to have a look at all the Bible verses given bellow, and taking each in turn show conclusively that they do not indicate that OS A S, is the truth." Take up my challenge, and I will take up yours. deal. Hi pabrain, Thank you for your response. Here is my postion on this subject. you are trying to desprove my scripture with your scripture correct? The problem with this is that scripture never contradicts itself correct? So if this is the case the only hope you have of disproving me would be to prove that my interpretation is off. Please feel free to give it a shot. trying to prove scripture wrong with other scriptures is like your own body rejectiing itself. Scripture is never wrong it's the interpreter that is wrong. Now let me tell you my position on this subject one more time. If you're a Christian who after receiving the gift of eternal life, and then turn away totally, I'm not talking about a christian who is weak in the flesh, and is going through the process of santification. ( Who is sorry for his/ her sin, and is praying for strength to overcome and with a genuine heart and despises their sin; I'm talking about a Christian who does everything he or she can against the kingdom of God. Here are some scriptures about sanctification: 1 Cor 1:30 (KJV). 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification. 1 Thess 4:3 (KJV) For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: 2 Thess 2:13 (KJV)13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 1 Peter 1:2 (KJV) 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. Matthew Henry's take on sanctification: Matthew 22:12:And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. 13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 14 For many are called, but few are chosen. Matt 22:12-14 (KJV) The case of hypocrites is represented by the guest that had not on a wedding-garment. It concerns all to prepare for the scrutiny; and those, and those only, who put on the Lord Jesus, who have a Christian temper of mind, who live by faith in Christ, and to whom he is all in all, have the wedding-garment. The imputed righteousness of Christ, and the sanctification of the Spirit, are both alike necessary. No man has the wedding-garment by nature, or can form it for himself. The day is coming, when hypocrites will be called to account for all their presumptuous intruding into gospel ordinances, and usurpation of gospel privileges. Take him away. Those that walk unworthy of Christianity, forfeit all the happiness they presumptuously claimed. Our Saviour here passes out of the parable into that which it teaches. Hypocrites go by the light of the gospel itself down to utter darkness. Many are called to the wedding-feast, that is, to salvation, but few have the wedding-garment, the righteousness of Christ, the sanctification of the Spirit. Then let us examine ourselves whether we are in the faith, and seek to be approved by the King.

The truth of this question lies in the scripture, and for those that believe OSAS, I would caution you to search the entire word for truth and not just go to the popular scriptures that suppor your belief, find the truth, that will be supported throughout the word. So on the OSAS issue: Matthew 24:13 KJVA (13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. So those who