AMB

Okay from that translation, what system do you think it is referring to? The order brought to the earth in Gen. 1, or that of the new covenant?

This is what I used to think, but i can't find a reference that says are names are written in there once we get saved, or if they were always there and accepting Christ prevents your name from being blotted out. Now I wonder if it is only the believers in Jesus Christ or many more, but only those that believe in Jesus stay in the book. How do you reconcile the OT patriarchs that died before Christ? They are in the book of life, and were justified by faith. This is an interesting topic.

I've always thought they were interchangable? Could you expand on your thoughts.

This is my first shot at a poll, hopefully it will live up to your standards. I am just curious to see what scriptures people have to back thier beleifs on this. I've heard various schools of thought.

This was an earlier post, but I think it deffinately supports the position that OSAS is a false doctrine. Matthew 24:13 KJVA (13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. So those who

Name one covenant in the Bible where the person or people had the choice in accepting it once they had entered in, or at least accepted the initial point of coming into the covenant. Israel is a perfect example - no matter how much they sinned and rejected God, He FORCED them to come back to Him. When you enter into a covenant with God, you lose your right to walk away....THAT is love. The reason He does that is that, because we are fallen, we would reject Him on a daily basis. "You lose your right to walk away" . . . did you hear what you just wrote? "THAT is love" . . . please show me one scripture that says "THAT" is love. wow.

Every single covenant in the Bible is a two way, mutual agreeement. It is the very meaning of the word, covenant. If it were not a covenent then some other word would be used as, forced arrangement, a slave relationship, or dictatorship, etc. Yes, Isreal departed many times. The fact they departed speaks against the view that it cannot happen. God calls back, but not all Isreal came back. It eventually got so bad that we have a dark age of almost 400 years of no revelation until Christ comes on the scene. Then in in front of the temple He explains quite vividly what will happen to that Temple because of unbelief, stubborness, outright rejection of Christ. If you think that the fall of Jeruselem is God simply calling Jews back, and that the staving of thousands of heads along the wall is chastisement, I think you better revisit history and the Bible regarding what constitutes chastisment and punishment. It never says God forced them back. They were sent off to Babylon to think about their wayward ways. I'm sure many repented, but many did not. Even, the wandering in the desert for 40 years is not chastisement, but punishment for disobedience. Again, many repented, but not all. Words are used because they convey meaning. The meanings don't change the context, but context can sometimes change meanings. But if what you say is true, I really like that meaning. I can take out a contract, a mortgage with the bank and as soon as I make it with them, they take it over. I don't need to contribute anything to that covenant. In legalize, that word is still used more often than not for legal agreements. Do you know of any that are not mutual, that do not have conditions for BOTH sides? The bible never speaks of losing salvation. It never speaks of having it guaranteed either. But salvaton of our souls is through faith. No faith, no salvation. Thus when we read of losing faith, you have lost salvation. If you do not abide in Christ, you do not have salvation. Only two books in the NT does not have some verse in it that chides believers to hold faith, to guard faith, to persevere or to instruct to do something or lose either faith, or God's love, or God's support. One cannot hate His brother and love God. And you call bondage love? Have you ever read I Cor 13. Is there any force in that whole chapter. Who holds you in a marriage contract. It is the wife or the husband by your view? Once entered into, someone must hold the other by force, that is love, so you say. Hardly. God created us free. It is the way we are supposed to be. That is why it is so unbiblical to say otherwise. God created us free, in His Image. To love freely, to serve, to work with Him. This is what Adam was doing freely. The problem is that Adam used that freedom to reject and plunged the world into death and sin. In that state man's union, working, having any communion with God was precluded. But Christ freed mankind from the bondage to death and sin, the judgment against Adam, just so you could be free again, to fulfill your created mandate, to be free and choose freely to love or reject God. You will be held accountable for that free choice. It is what the judgment is based on. Nothing else. It has nothing to do in getting it nor losing it. In fact man has no imput whatsoever in his salvtion from the fall. The Bible distinquishes between salvation from the fall, because the fall precluded the spiritual union with God, (the thing we fell from, due to the fall.) Christ corrected the fall, so that we could continue as humans to work with Him through faith, freely. We were created to save ourselves. The ultimate goal of God through Christ was to correct the fall, so we as humans could be in union once again. We do this through faith and it is freely made, accepted, and rejected at any time. Our human natues does not flip between having a will and not having one. That is an impossibility. If we ever had one, we always will have one. The fall did not destroy anything in man, it simply distorted, clouded our ability. We never lost the ability completely. Amen.

Where is this in the passage? Keep in mind that salvation is a covenant relationship. Salvation is not saying a prayer and then from then on we're thrown into the pool and by God we better learn to swim. By entering into this covenant we are allowing God to sanctify us (bring us back into the complete image of God). This passage states that He is faithful to begin a good work that HE STARTED in us. In other words, your theory is off the moment you think this covenant is two way. It's not - we respond, and God takes over from there. If our works have anything to do with us losing our salvation, then we believe in a works based salvation. I've looking at the greek of covenant and it says nothing about it being one way . . . most definitions indicate it is a two way agreement. Mate...covenant is an idea, not a definition. Try again. Are you serious? all that we are discussing is surrounded by the use of words, a common language. if we don't have the same basis or foundation of meaning how could we ever get anywhere . . . lol, as if we are getting anywhere. Thanks for the enlightened response, obviously we look at covenant differently and your view of it is so clear, or should I say your "idea" of it is so clear from your response that it is much clearer to me now. thank you for that. in reality it would be nice if you could show me differently so I can grow. Thanks Mate. So why are we referred to as the bride if we have no part after the wedding . . . He just completes it all, without any choice, even in adultry. Wouldn't that be taking the power from God, I am saved and I deny Christ for whatever reason I cannot fathom, but He's got to complete what He started. Have any of you long term members ever had any "major" revelations or changes to your beliefs while you've been on here? I am not talking about just new information but actual changes in how you thought about a something with conviction. you could pm me on that if you would like so as not to side track this discussion thanks I've enjoyed enjoyed the comments from both sides that have been in the spirit of teaching and in learning.

Where is this in the passage? Keep in mind that salvation is a covenant relationship. Salvation is not saying a prayer and then from then on we're thrown into the pool and by God we better learn to swim. By entering into this covenant we are allowing God to sanctify us (bring us back into the complete image of God). This passage states that He is faithful to begin a good work that HE STARTED in us. In other words, your theory is off the moment you think this covenant is two way. It's not - we respond, and God takes over from there. If our works have anything to do with us losing our salvation, then we believe in a works based salvation. I've looking at the greek of covenant and it says nothing about it being one way . . . most definitions indicate it is a two way agreement.

Your question implies that one of us is wrong, when in fact we are both right. The scripture does say that he will complete his work in us...key words "his work". I believe that this means he will completely exaust all of his efforts to try to bring about conversion in our lives. Some people just will not change. That doesn't mean that God never tried, or that he failed....he will say that he did everything that he could. I believe that God works in all of our hearts. But we know that it will be the minority who are saved. That doesn't mean thet he never began a good work in the others....it just means that they were stubborn or that their hearts were hardened and they could not be converted no matter what God did. The only thing that he will not do to get us to convert is take away our free will. If he did take away our free will then all who claim to be Christians would be saved, but we know that there will be many so-called Christians thrown into the lake of fire. Exactly!!

Do you have that much time? Wouldn't it be better for you yourself to take each of those verses and read them so that you can see how they fit? This is why we are told to study. There are many, many fatihs that base their religion on just John 3:16 and Eph 2:8,9 and nobody tells them the same things you just required from me. I study the bible and use ALL of the scriptures that were given to mankind and inspired by God for doctrine, reproof, and instruction in righteousness. If anybody really wants to know what those scriptures mean then they can look them up themselves. A lot of those verses are self explanitory anyway and need no profound expounding. No, I want you to use proper hermeneutics on every passage. I'm not going to let you get away with posting a bunch of one liner scriptures. I've already done it with most of those scriptures, specifically the ones in Hebrews, for my benefit. Your turn. You want to tout that you've studied and understand the Bible, prove it. Philippians 1:6-7 - For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. For it is only right for me to feel this way about you all, because I have you in my heart, since both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel, you all are partakers of grace with me. The Book of Philippians is addressing the persecution faced by the intended audience. Paul is stating that though he had to leave them early, he is sure that God will continue a good work in them, and that He will be faithful to complete it. The structure of this sentence places the power in God's hands for the completion, and takes it out of the hands of the audience. The two key Greek words here are enarksamenos and epitelesei. The former, in its grammatical construct, means "to create" or "to begin." In other words, this "good work" (faith) was created by God, not by their own actions. It was given to them by God. The latter Greek word solidifies that salvation is not our own in that it literally means, "completed." In other words, Paul is saying, "God created and initiated the faith you have, and He will complete that faith you have on the day you are with Christ." If we can leave the faith, this allows us more power than God, since He is the author and finisher of our faith. This is just one passage - but as you can see, there is no alternative interpretation. From this, we must look at other passages and compare your interpretation of the passages to this one. I think you are reading way more into it than it says. The work of Christ will be completed, His plans cannot be stopped, they come to past, but we have to choose to come into agreement with the work He started in us. We all know God will follow through with His part of the agreement, but we must endure, and if we do wander we need to be brought back into repentance before death. This says nothing to one not having the inability to fall away from Christ once we are in Him. Christ's abiltiy to complete something, does not stop me from walking away from His ability. I have a part in it.

You don't understand how salvation works, this is why you think that. When you "accept" Christ, you give up your ability to choose. This is quite clear in scripture. Again, how is your belief not based on works? It's it a bit uncanny how EVERYONE avoided that once I brought it up? Could it be *gasp* because there is no way to avoid that conclusion? [/quot] Are you saying when we accept Christ we give up our ability to choose? Where is that scriptually? Salvation is not based on works, it is a free gift (thanks for the reply). Why do you keep going back there, we are all in agreement on how we get saved, it is by faith we receive the free gift of Christ, as Lord and Savior. I am not saying it is even the works (sin) that causes you to lose your salvation. It is the condition of the heart . . . it is the issue of not enduring or wandering away from the heart, sin cannot seperate you from Christ, but the hardening or turning away of the heart from Christ can. Why do you think Jesues said "remain in me" Otherwise he would have said, you are saved, just do what I say and you can never walk away because if I see you walking away I'll take you before you would actually go that far. (I am not sure if you indiated this earlier or not, if not disregard, my apologies.) John 15 The Vine and the Branches 1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5"I am the vine; you are the branches. "If" a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6"If" anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7"If" you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples. 9"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit

Where? Rom 6:23 (23) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.

Where? Rom 5:15-18 KJV (15) But not as the offense, so also is the free gift. For if through the offense of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. (16) And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offenses unto justification. (17) For if by one man's offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) (18) Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. Rom 5:15-18 NLT (15) But there is a great difference between Adam's sin and God's gracious gift. For the sin of this one man, Adam, brought death to many. But even greater is God's wonderful grace and His gift of forgiveness to many through this other Man, Jesus Christ. (16) And the result of God's gracious gift is very different from the result of that one man's sin. For Adam's sin led to condemnation, but God's free gift leads to our being made right with God, even though we are guilty of many sins. (17) For the sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over many. But even greater is God's wonderful grace and His gift of righteousness, for all who receive it will live in triumph over sin and death through this one Man, Jesus Christ. (18) Yes, Adam's one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christ's one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone.

Why do you believe that the earth is much older than 6,000 years old? Science? For one, we have record of civilizations dating much farther than 6,000 years. (Chinese for instance) I would have to agree that it is much much older . . . I've recently had a conversation with a nuclear engineer that has studied much of the sciences around the age of the earth . . . but what he pointed out is that prior to the fall, Adam was never going to die, there was no death prior to the fall, even in the plant or animal kingdom, who are also eagerly waiting redemption. So really the bible never says how long Adam was in the garden, it could have been millions or billions of years. Yes it does say that he lived 930 years, and then died, but could it be possible that it was 930 years from the fall? Because prior to that there was no physical death, and our years really just count how long we lived before we died, the length between birth and death. In eternity, I don't think we will be keeping track of how many years we've been around. . . lol. Another point of view is that we don't know when "the beginning" was, it could have been billions of years before the creation of the earth as indicated in Genesis occurs. Along those same lines, we don't know how long he was in the garden without Eve. And we don't know how long they were together in the garden before the fall. They could have had children prior to the fall, many children at that. Her curse was that she would now have pain with childbirth . . . did that mean prior to the fall she had little or no pain in childbirth, or did she think I wonder what that means "pregnancy?" When she does have Cane she said "With the LORD's help, I have produced a man!" Could this have been the first man she had after the fall? Prior to it she had minimal or no pain, now it was increased, which may have prompted her to say what she said, with her now acknowledging, in her fallen state, her need to depend and rely on God. All very interesting . . . but I don't think we will know for sure. I would like to see what others think of these viewpoints. Enjoy.

Honestly, I've never understood why some believers use the interpretation of "day" in the creation account as a litmus test for fellow believers. It's like, if you don't believe in 6, 24 hour days then you must not believe any of the bible. This is absurd, and frankly graceless. There are numerous well-educated, believing scholars on both sides of this debate. So obviously, there is enough ambiguity to allow for some grace. Just because someone holds a different interpretation of "day" does not mean they disregard or "undermine" the totality of Scripture. Instead of using this as a reference for judgment, we should appreciate that we at least agree that all things were created by God, and God alone. Believer's Battlecry, did you agree/disagree with this post or just ignore it? I was just curious because topics like these can tend to get ugly real fast if each side doesn't allow for some grace when it comes to interpretting the word "day". I apologize I did not see it. To me the Bible is so clear that it was a literal 24 hours. It says Day/Evening. When have you ever heard someone use day and evening to talk about a week, year or 10 years. The Bible has such simple truths if only we will allow it. If Genesis 1:5 stated "And the evening and the morning were the first 1,000 years, do you think anyone in their right mind would deduce that maybe "1, 000 years" really meant one 24 hour day????? God help us! I stand on 2 Timothy 3:16 -All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: and Hebrews 4:12 -For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Mate...will Jesus literally have a sword coming out of His mouth...and will He literally look like a lamb? That was funny . . . I appreciate that. lol

Then you believe in works based salvation. I already addressed this in a previous post...a previous post you failed to respond to. Why are you rehashing what has already been dealt with? Where did I say it was a free gift? It's not...it's a covenant that we enter into. Still, your silence in responding to my previous post is...uncanny. My bad, what post are you talking about? Is one able to set this up so you are notified when one of your posts have been responded too? Sorry I'm fairly new here. Ah, you might not of said it is a free gift, but the bible did, and again, it is not God that breaks His covenant with us, it is the opposite . . . He is true until the end, ready, willing, and able to save all who endure until the end, who do not wander, and if they do, if they return with repentance He is still faithful to them to do all He has promised. These are the ones He will not blot out from the book of life. And again, sin is not what constitutes wandering, for we've all sinned and fallen short . . . no, it is those who willfully turn away and harden their hearts . . . it is not the sin, it is the refusal to humble themselves to God, and continue in sin . . . with the attitude of "OSAS, or His grace is sufficient for me" . . . I can't fathom someone actually doing this . . . but I think it is possible. Walking away says nothing about God's power or ability to keep in complete integrity, it is completely in the heart and will of the individual. Thank you for you replies.

It is your misconclusion. It is not inevitable. It is NOT my opinion anyhow! So go figure! I do not believe in Eternal Security. Then you believe in work's based salvation. Of course not. I believe in Salvation by the Cross and the shed blood of Christ. I already asserted that good works is an outflow of faith. Then you believe in Eternal Security. Stop it. I do not. Well which is it? If we are saved by faith, which is something God gives us and maintains, it is literally impossible for us to overpower Him and walk away. If we can walk away, then it is purely works based. You can't have your cake and eat it too. The problem with your arguement is that though I can be saved by faith . . . by receiving the free gift . . . says nothing about you walking away from that. We all believed that we are saved by faith. You are adding your own thoughts that we cannot walk away form it. If I walk away from a free gift, that has nothing to do with how I received it. The two are unrelated. You can walk away from a free gift.

Which means, if we don't keep the commandments on a consistent basis, i.e. continue to work, then we will lose our salvation. Ergo, our salvation is not dependent upon our faith, but instead upon our works. No matter how you try to word it, it will always come back to this point. If continually sinning causes our salvation to be void, then our salvation is dependent upon our works. What if you simply lost your faith then? How does one lose that which does not belong to him? To each man was given a measure of faith, it is up to him what he will do with it. We are not robots without free will. He is not going to cross our free will when it comes to our eternal security. He has the power, but what He does here is through cooperation with us. Our eternal security is based on us recieving the free gift, and then not rejecting it by wandering from the faith or failing to endure. I do believe you can walk away, or are you a robot now, without free will? OR is it once you've made your free will choice to be saved, you all of the sudden now lose your ability to choose life or death?

Thanks for the reply. That is what sin is though. In fact, that's a very good definition of it. Anytime we sin, we are putting aside and turning away from God's law and truth. Yes, but sin for some occurs hourly, some may go a long time without sinning . . . but a sin is not what causes you to turn away from Chirst, that is a hardening of the heart, that is when a person can deny or walk away from the truth . . . that is when they wander away, that is when they don't endure, and it is those that will be blotted out of the book of life. I am seeing that we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. I do believe I can reject Christ, although he would never reject me, I can reject Him, regardless of how crazy that may seem to us that are born again . . . some can and will fall away. What does this have to do with the debate? No one who actually believes in eternal security, that is, has studied the doctrine and understands it, believes what you just presented. We do not believe a single prayer changes us, but instead the Holy Spirit enters and changes us. We state that salvation is man asking God to come in and change us, that it is our act of crucifixion to Christ, in which He enters us and thus begins a battle between that which is sinful in our mind and that which is Godly. However, we also believe that He is faithful to finish the work that He began in us. How can we fall away from what He has begun, are we more powerful than God? Are we more powerful than God, no of course not. He can only work through our cooperation with Him when it comes to our own eternal salvation. He can complete it, if I cooperate with it . . . he is not going to cross my free will . . . say I lose a love one, and hate God for it and "never" go back to Him, I don't think He would force it apon me. He would always be waiting and able and faithful to every promise in His word if I was to turn back to Him, but if I don't, I chose. Instead, eternal security is not a free guide to sin. Instead, we believe that through sanctification, a true Christian will not want to sin, or will desire Christ more so than he does sin. Someone that accepts Christ and continues on with no change has not been saved, period. Salvation is proven through sanctification. I agree, we are always growing as long as we press into Him. But some will not press, some will not endure, some will wander, and some will fall away and some will be erased from the book of life. You cannot have a relationship with Christ if your doctrine is not correct and you do not study the Word. We are told the greatest commandment is to love God with all of our strength, heart, and mind. In both the Hebrew and Greek (in Deuteronomy where it is originally quoted, and then in all four Gospels) it means the intellectual, or rational, study of God. If you ignore this aspect, and do not seek out proper theology, then you will not have a good relationship. It is like trying to have a relationship with your spouse without ever getting to know who she is, where she comes from, and what her views on things are. Hmmm I would have to disagree some with part of this. I agree we need to meditate on the Word, hands down it is our bread of life, without we would be lost. I also agree we must come to him with all of our strength, heart and mind. But the intellectual or rational part is where we deviate, or perhaps we do not, it is just important not to over emphasize our intellectual capabilities, and not submit to the leading of the spirit, which I am sure you would completely agree: Rationalism is reliance on reason as the basis for estabishment of religious truth; a theory that reason is in itself a source of knowledge superior to and independent of sense perceptions. This does has a place in that it allows us to obtain Logos, it is calculated, it is cognitive and analytical, and uses much academic study but a christian who only develops his mind flows with only a knowledge of Logos, and not rhema. It is the Spirit that reveals rhema to us, of course through the logos. But I am sure we agree on this. We are to be Spirit led, driven and enlightened. This is where logos turns into rhema, the truth about what God is speaking to me, but it is grounded in Logos. You're using an argument from silence, "Because the Bible doesn't say I can't walk away, it must mean I can walk away." This logic doesn't work. The Bible also doesn't say that I will die if I jump out of a plane, ergo, if I jump out of a plane I will live. It does say to those that endure, and James says that those who wander from the truth, and "remain" in that state will die, referring to the soul. John says there is a sin unto death for believers . . . and he is not talking physical death. Rev. says I will not blot out their names . . . but the opposite is true. 2 Peter 2 talks of those whose end is worse for them than the beginning, because they knew the way of righteousness. They fell away, they walked away, they chose to deny Christ . . . do you think He would cross our free will? In addition, sin occurs within the heart, therefore, if it is a heart condition, then it is a sin condition. All sins are manifestations of what has already occurred within - thus, anytime we sin, we have exposed a weakness in our heart, and have possibly lost our salvation. You are twisting it now, it is not sin that keeps a sinner from God . . . it is the relationship. Eternity is to know God. In the greek to know means to have an intimate growing relationship with Him. If you turn away from Him, and your heart is hardened, and you choose to not return, you've lost that relationship. You chose to deny Him. Yes I believe He is always ready and willing and able to complete the work He started in you, but you have to cooperate with Him, you have to draw near to Him, you've got to give Him your everything, we are colaborers with Christ. He won't cross our free will, it is up to us to choose life or death. Now his grace will give us all we need to stay in that place with Him, but we still have to choose it, it is not forced upon us, it is a free gift that we must recieve, and cherish and endure with, and not wander from. Anyways, I just want to say HE is so good, and so faithful, and amazing . . . I just love the truth of His Word, the Presence of His Spirit, and the fellowship that comes from submitting to Him, He amazes me daily . . . I know you will all agree with that. What have you done for your King today? God bless.

Eliyahuw, You are a good man, thanks for the reply I like you . . . lol. God is good.

Ah, I get it, it's so simple! So that means if I lie about something, like, someone asks how I'm doing and I say "fine" when I'm not doing fine, and all of a sudden Jesus comes back, I'll go to hell because I haven't repented! It all makes so much sense! Thank you for clearing it all up! As for not knowing scripture...I really need to get my money back for studying Greek and hermeneutics. What a waste of money when you showed it was so simple! So what did you just gain by mocking a heart thought response? You want to simplify our God and others view points so that you can mock them. That is something to admire. I am glad you have so much pride in your greek and hermeneutics, you are a better perosn because of it . . . hopefully you'll enjoy teaching, encouraging and aiding others in the pursuit of knowledge, without mocking them. I know I can learn from you, you have knowledge as do I and everybody on here. Thanks for this insightful comment, it made us all better. Have a great day. I wasn't mocking it - I was showing how utterly absurd it is to make it seem as simple as he did. Furthermore, I was pointing out how illogical his statement was, and how it practically condemns all of us to Hell. Let's face it, when you deny eternal security, you leave no way to measure our salvation, on what causes us to lose it and what doesn't. You also never responded to what I posted against you...all you did was thrust a personal comment at me, without addressing the content I brought forth. Hmmmmmm Just so you can keep track, here are the responses to you from me: Post Number 882 Post 880 As a side note, next time before "getting onto" me, look at the entire picture. The reason I brought up my training in the scriptures is because Cardpractor said that anyone who is against his position obviously hasn't read/doesn't understand the scriptures. The fact is, and take this as you will, I'm better equipped to understand the scriptures than he is, so it's a little absurd for him to advocate the opposite. That's not to say I have the absolute, infallible interpretation that no one can question, or that I can't be wrong - it merely means that when it comes down to it, I have more tools to work with. My apologies on replying to your other quotes, not something I did on purpose. I had posted those other references just out of curiosity, which just shows us all that this discussion goes far beyond us, and was actually glad to see you had some of the original writings. That type of information is very valuable. Thank you very much. As far as, how and when we lose our salvation that is a different topic. I don't think it is the actual sin that causes us to lose our salvation, but it turning away from Christ and His truth. For whatever the reason, some just think that they can say a pray and they are saved . . . they enter the born again club and never really enter into a realionship. They are deceived and most likely just had a head conversion, which is likely to be a very large part of the church right now. There is another group that get born again and then dive into the scripture to gain the correct theology and doctrine . . . they are very versed in the scripture, but still don't have a relationship with Him . . . just as the religious people of Jesus' time. They thought eternity was in the scriptures, but they refused to have a relationship with Him. (John 5) I beleive this is a picture of many in the church now, many either just join the born again club, others desire to just get their theology or doctrine correct . . . but again eternity is to know God (John 17). . . not just His scripture. It is a personal relationship that is as intimate as the one with your spouse. What is eternity? Jesus said it is to KNOW God. Know here indicates very intimate relationship with Him. This is Jesus speaking . . . you can know all the scripture you want, and even speak greek and hebrew, and still not know God, but it is the relationship with Christ that brings eternal salvation. Again, I don't beleive it is the "sin" that causes you to walk away from God, but a condition of the heart, but know where does it say I cannot walk away form him by choice . . . why somebody would, I don't know, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Anyways thank you for making me better. Be blessed.

I'll tell ya, i wasn't being snarky with anyone, i was being serious in this. I have pointed out that Christ told us that we can never be taken from him by anyone including ourselves. he said it and if it isn't true then i would want no part of worshipping him because if it weren't true he would be a liar! But to go on beyond that, No one who is truely christian will go to hell for bouncing a check and forgetting about it and then when he comes again, he hasn't repented of that sin and wow surprise you go to hell. THats just plain rediculous in thinking. SOrry but no it ain't going to happen. I can however tell you from PERSONAL experience that he doesn't let you go far before either taking you home or bringing you to a point of asking forgiveness for sin that you commit. And his "reminders" aren't that gentle. I live with his reminder every day for my turning away for a season, there isn't a minute that goes by that i don't have physical pain from my actions. But the fact remains is that he was going to remove me from earth or i was going to ask for forgiveness. AT no point would i have lost my salvation. Basically, when i turned my back on him was the day he took my dad. It wasn't right, fair, justified that he take him from this earth at 56. I pretty much hated him for it, and it didn't get any better when he took my son from this earth. Then i really hated him. I figured i didnt need him for anything, since i was able to do for myself. You can drop me off in the middle of the wilderness, and i will probably meet you back at base camp before you get back thats how resourceful i am. Sooo he took my health. I now live with chronic angina pain level 5 which is the worst kind, Congestive Heart failure, and several other ailments. I was 100% healthy up to that point. I had 6 heart attacks as warnings and finally the last one almost killed me. I know that if I had died, i would be in heaven, but would have been there with no rewards, and getting there by the skin of my teeth. I don't know if I would totally agree with you. . . if we don't forgive, he won't forgive us right? Unforgivenss is a very crucial, it hardens our hearts, and causes sickness and disease . . . could heart disease and complications, just may be, be correlated to this . . . then it wouldn't be God causing these things, but our choice . . . I am a firm believer that God did not cause any of these things to occur in your life, it was not his plan for you, but you yourself have said you were mad at God for taking your dad . . . which I beleive is the wrong viewpoint, but this is an entirely different discussion. SO why did he take my health? I don't belive it was to repent for fear of hell, he did it to show me that he can take care of things. That he has the control over everything. He did it to show me that he didn't need my help. He takes care of me, he provides for me, he loves me. You guys make him out to be this fearful threatening being. Sorry to disappoint you folks but he's nothing like that. He's a sheppard. He loves his flock. If one strays away, he doesn't kill it and damn it to hell, he leaves the others in the fold and goes out and seeks that one sheep that wanders away and brings it back tothe fold. IF that sheep doesn't listen, he breaks its leg and he then carries that sheep on his shoulders with him until that sheep heals. When it heals, it will be closer to him as the sheep will bond with him. Right now my sheppard is carrying me on his shoulders. he feeds me, he mends my wounds, he mends my heart, he repairs the damage i did to myself, he keeps me near his heart. So much here . . . so you think HE took your health? Why would he do that? This is a whole other discuss and has little to do with OSAS. So maybe it should not be brought up in this discussion. Regardless, I am thankful for you dedication to and love for our savior, you are a valuable citizen of the Kingdom, and I know God has great plans for you here and now, that don't include pain and sufferring. So sorry if i don't believe in your losing salvation ideas. Its not biblical. Its not what christ said, and not what christ has shown. What i do believe is that if a christian doesn't turn back to him, because his sheeph knows him and hear his voice and come running back to him when called, that christian that doesn't turn back is more than likely a person that has a head knowelge of christ, not a heart knowlege of christ. Thats the difference. If it wasn't biblical, and it was black and white, we wouldn't be discussing it. Both sides have scripture to support their view point. I would just say we all need to be open to being revealed truth. I think some of the most dangerous words in the English language is "I know that." Which really says I am not opening to grow. Reveal truth, challenge my thoughts, I desire to grow, I definately don't have all the answers. Also how would you qualify head knowledge vs. heart? It isn't qualified in scripture . . . or is it . . . hmmmm.

Ah, I get it, it's so simple! So that means if I lie about something, like, someone asks how I'm doing and I say "fine" when I'm not doing fine, and all of a sudden Jesus comes back, I'll go to hell because I haven't repented! It all makes so much sense! Thank you for clearing it all up! As for not knowing scripture...I really need to get my money back for studying Greek and hermeneutics. What a waste of money when you showed it was so simple! So what did you just gain by mocking a heart thought response? You want to simplify our God and others view points so that you can mock them. That is something to admire. I am glad you have so much pride in your greek and hermeneutics, you are a better perosn because of it . . . hopefully you'll enjoy teaching, encouraging and aiding others in the pursuit of knowledge, without mocking them. I know I can learn from you, you have knowledge as do I and everybody on here. Thanks for this insightful comment, it made us all better. Have a great day.