AMB

Okay from that translation, what system do you think it is referring to? The order brought to the earth in Gen. 1, or that of the new covenant?

This is what I used to think, but i can't find a reference that says are names are written in there once we get saved, or if they were always there and accepting Christ prevents your name from being blotted out. Now I wonder if it is only the believers in Jesus Christ or many more, but only those that believe in Jesus stay in the book. How do you reconcile the OT patriarchs that died before Christ? They are in the book of life, and were justified by faith. This is an interesting topic.

I've always thought they were interchangable? Could you expand on your thoughts.

This is my first shot at a poll, hopefully it will live up to your standards. I am just curious to see what scriptures people have to back thier beleifs on this. I've heard various schools of thought.

This was an earlier post, but I think it deffinately supports the position that OSAS is a false doctrine. Matthew 24:13 KJVA (13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. So those who

Name one covenant in the Bible where the person or people had the choice in accepting it once they had entered in, or at least accepted the initial point of coming into the covenant. Israel is a perfect example - no matter how much they sinned and rejected God, He FORCED them to come back to Him. When you enter into a covenant with God, you lose your right to walk away....THAT is love. The reason He does that is that, because we are fallen, we would reject Him on a daily basis. "You lose your right to walk away" . . . did you hear what you just wrote? "THAT is love" . . . please show me one scripture that says "THAT" is love. wow.

Every single covenant in the Bible is a two way, mutual agreeement. It is the very meaning of the word, covenant. If it were not a covenent then some other word would be used as, forced arrangement, a slave relationship, or dictatorship, etc. Yes, Isreal departed many times. The fact they departed speaks against the view that it cannot happen. God calls back, but not all Isreal came back. It eventually got so bad that we have a dark age of almost 400 years of no revelation until Christ comes on the scene. Then in in front of the temple He explains quite vividly what will happen to that Temple because of unbelief, stubborness, outright rejection of Christ. If you think that the fall of Jeruselem is God simply calling Jews back, and that the staving of thousands of heads along the wall is chastisement, I think you better revisit history and the Bible regarding what constitutes chastisment and punishment. It never says God forced them back. They were sent off to Babylon to think about their wayward ways. I'm sure many repented, but many did not. Even, the wandering in the desert for 40 years is not chastisement, but punishment for disobedience. Again, many repented, but not all. Words are used because they convey meaning. The meanings don't change the context, but context can sometimes change meanings. But if what you say is true, I really like that meaning. I can take out a contract, a mortgage with the bank and as soon as I make it with them, they take it over. I don't need to contribute anything to that covenant. In legalize, that word is still used more often than not for legal agreements. Do you know of any that are not mutual, that do not have conditions for BOTH sides? The bible never speaks of losing salvation. It never speaks of having it guaranteed either. But salvaton of our souls is through faith. No faith, no salvation. Thus when we read of losing faith, you have lost salvation. If you do not abide in Christ, you do not have salvation. Only two books in the NT does not have some verse in it that chides believers to hold faith, to guard faith, to persevere or to instruct to do something or lose either faith, or God's love, or God's support. One cannot hate His brother and love God. And you call bondage love? Have you ever read I Cor 13. Is there any force in that whole chapter. Who holds you in a marriage contract. It is the wife or the husband by your view? Once entered into, someone must hold the other by force, that is love, so you say. Hardly. God created us free. It is the way we are supposed to be. That is why it is so unbiblical to say otherwise. God created us free, in His Image. To love freely, to serve, to work with Him. This is what Adam was doing freely. The problem is that Adam used that freedom to reject and plunged the world into death and sin. In that state man's union, working, having any communion with God was precluded. But Christ freed mankind from the bondage to death and sin, the judgment against Adam, just so you could be free again, to fulfill your created mandate, to be free and choose freely to love or reject God. You will be held accountable for that free choice. It is what the judgment is based on. Nothing else. It has nothing to do in getting it nor losing it. In fact man has no imput whatsoever in his salvtion from the fall. The Bible distinquishes between salvation from the fall, because the fall precluded the spiritual union with God, (the thing we fell from, due to the fall.) Christ corrected the fall, so that we could continue as humans to work with Him through faith, freely. We were created to save ourselves. The ultimate goal of God through Christ was to correct the fall, so we as humans could be in union once again. We do this through faith and it is freely made, accepted, and rejected at any time. Our human natues does not flip between having a will and not having one. That is an impossibility. If we ever had one, we always will have one. The fall did not destroy anything in man, it simply distorted, clouded our ability. We never lost the ability completely. Amen.

Where is this in the passage? Keep in mind that salvation is a covenant relationship. Salvation is not saying a prayer and then from then on we're thrown into the pool and by God we better learn to swim. By entering into this covenant we are allowing God to sanctify us (bring us back into the complete image of God). This passage states that He is faithful to begin a good work that HE STARTED in us. In other words, your theory is off the moment you think this covenant is two way. It's not - we respond, and God takes over from there. If our works have anything to do with us losing our salvation, then we believe in a works based salvation. I've looking at the greek of covenant and it says nothing about it being one way . . . most definitions indicate it is a two way agreement. Mate...covenant is an idea, not a definition. Try again. Are you serious? all that we are discussing is surrounded by the use of words, a common language. if we don't have the same basis or foundation of meaning how could we ever get anywhere . . . lol, as if we are getting anywhere. Thanks for the enlightened response, obviously we look at covenant differently and your view of it is so clear, or should I say your "idea" of it is so clear from your response that it is much clearer to me now. thank you for that. in reality it would be nice if you could show me differently so I can grow. Thanks Mate. So why are we referred to as the bride if we have no part after the wedding . . . He just completes it all, without any choice, even in adultry. Wouldn't that be taking the power from God, I am saved and I deny Christ for whatever reason I cannot fathom, but He's got to complete what He started. Have any of you long term members ever had any "major" revelations or changes to your beliefs while you've been on here? I am not talking about just new information but actual changes in how you thought about a something with conviction. you could pm me on that if you would like so as not to side track this discussion thanks I've enjoyed enjoyed the comments from both sides that have been in the spirit of teaching and in learning.

Where is this in the passage? Keep in mind that salvation is a covenant relationship. Salvation is not saying a prayer and then from then on we're thrown into the pool and by God we better learn to swim. By entering into this covenant we are allowing God to sanctify us (bring us back into the complete image of God). This passage states that He is faithful to begin a good work that HE STARTED in us. In other words, your theory is off the moment you think this covenant is two way. It's not - we respond, and God takes over from there. If our works have anything to do with us losing our salvation, then we believe in a works based salvation. I've looking at the greek of covenant and it says nothing about it being one way . . . most definitions indicate it is a two way agreement.

Your question implies that one of us is wrong, when in fact we are both right. The scripture does say that he will complete his work in us...key words "his work". I believe that this means he will completely exaust all of his efforts to try to bring about conversion in our lives. Some people just will not change. That doesn't mean that God never tried, or that he failed....he will say that he did everything that he could. I believe that God works in all of our hearts. But we know that it will be the minority who are saved. That doesn't mean thet he never began a good work in the others....it just means that they were stubborn or that their hearts were hardened and they could not be converted no matter what God did. The only thing that he will not do to get us to convert is take away our free will. If he did take away our free will then all who claim to be Christians would be saved, but we know that there will be many so-called Christians thrown into the lake of fire. Exactly!!

Do you have that much time? Wouldn't it be better for you yourself to take each of those verses and read them so that you can see how they fit? This is why we are told to study. There are many, many fatihs that base their religion on just John 3:16 and Eph 2:8,9 and nobody tells them the same things you just required from me. I study the bible and use ALL of the scriptures that were given to mankind and inspired by God for doctrine, reproof, and instruction in righteousness. If anybody really wants to know what those scriptures mean then they can look them up themselves. A lot of those verses are self explanitory anyway and need no profound expounding. No, I want you to use proper hermeneutics on every passage. I'm not going to let you get away with posting a bunch of one liner scriptures. I've already done it with most of those scriptures, specifically the ones in Hebrews, for my benefit. Your turn. You want to tout that you've studied and understand the Bible, prove it. Philippians 1:6-7 - For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. For it is only right for me to feel this way about you all, because I have you in my heart, since both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel, you all are partakers of grace with me. The Book of Philippians is addressing the persecution faced by the intended audience. Paul is stating that though he had to leave them early, he is sure that God will continue a good work in them, and that He will be faithful to complete it. The structure of this sentence places the power in God's hands for the completion, and takes it out of the hands of the audience. The two key Greek words here are enarksamenos and epitelesei. The former, in its grammatical construct, means "to create" or "to begin." In other words, this "good work" (faith) was created by God, not by their own actions. It was given to them by God. The latter Greek word solidifies that salvation is not our own in that it literally means, "completed." In other words, Paul is saying, "God created and initiated the faith you have, and He will complete that faith you have on the day you are with Christ." If we can leave the faith, this allows us more power than God, since He is the author and finisher of our faith. This is just one passage - but as you can see, there is no alternative interpretation. From this, we must look at other passages and compare your interpretation of the passages to this one. I think you are reading way more into it than it says. The work of Christ will be completed, His plans cannot be stopped, they come to past, but we have to choose to come into agreement with the work He started in us. We all know God will follow through with His part of the agreement, but we must endure, and if we do wander we need to be brought back into repentance before death. This says nothing to one not having the inability to fall away from Christ once we are in Him. Christ's abiltiy to complete something, does not stop me from walking away from His ability. I have a part in it.

You don't understand how salvation works, this is why you think that. When you "accept" Christ, you give up your ability to choose. This is quite clear in scripture. Again, how is your belief not based on works? It's it a bit uncanny how EVERYONE avoided that once I brought it up? Could it be *gasp* because there is no way to avoid that conclusion? [/quot] Are you saying when we accept Christ we give up our ability to choose? Where is that scriptually? Salvation is not based on works, it is a free gift (thanks for the reply). Why do you keep going back there, we are all in agreement on how we get saved, it is by faith we receive the free gift of Christ, as Lord and Savior. I am not saying it is even the works (sin) that causes you to lose your salvation. It is the condition of the heart . . . it is the issue of not enduring or wandering away from the heart, sin cannot seperate you from Christ, but the hardening or turning away of the heart from Christ can. Why do you think Jesues said "remain in me" Otherwise he would have said, you are saved, just do what I say and you can never walk away because if I see you walking away I'll take you before you would actually go that far. (I am not sure if you indiated this earlier or not, if not disregard, my apologies.) John 15 The Vine and the Branches 1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5"I am the vine; you are the branches. "If" a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6"If" anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7"If" you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples. 9"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit

Where? Rom 6:23 (23) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.

Where? Rom 5:15-18 KJV (15) But not as the offense, so also is the free gift. For if through the offense of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. (16) And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offenses unto justification. (17) For if by one man's offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) (18) Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. Rom 5:15-18 NLT (15) But there is a great difference between Adam's sin and God's gracious gift. For the sin of this one man, Adam, brought death to many. But even greater is God's wonderful grace and His gift of forgiveness to many through this other Man, Jesus Christ. (16) And the result of God's gracious gift is very different from the result of that one man's sin. For Adam's sin led to condemnation, but God's free gift leads to our being made right with God, even though we are guilty of many sins. (17) For the sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over many. But even greater is God's wonderful grace and His gift of righteousness, for all who receive it will live in triumph over sin and death through this one Man, Jesus Christ. (18) Yes, Adam's one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christ's one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone.

Why do you believe that the earth is much older than 6,000 years old? Science? For one, we have record of civilizations dating much farther than 6,000 years. (Chinese for instance) I would have to agree that it is much much older . . . I've recently had a conversation with a nuclear engineer that has studied much of the sciences around the age of the earth . . . but what he pointed out is that prior to the fall, Adam was never going to die, there was no death prior to the fall, even in the plant or animal kingdom, who are also eagerly waiting redemption. So really the bible never says how long Adam was in the garden, it could have been millions or billions of years. Yes it does say that he lived 930 years, and then died, but could it be possible that it was 930 years from the fall? Because prior to that there was no physical death, and our years really just count how long we lived before we died, the length between birth and death. In eternity, I don't think we will be keeping track of how many years we've been around. . . lol. Another point of view is that we don't know when "the beginning" was, it could have been billions of years before the creation of the earth as indicated in Genesis occurs. Along those same lines, we don't know how long he was in the garden without Eve. And we don't know how long they were together in the garden before the fall. They could have had children prior to the fall, many children at that. Her curse was that she would now have pain with childbirth . . . did that mean prior to the fall she had little or no pain in childbirth, or did she think I wonder what that means "pregnancy?" When she does have Cane she said "With the LORD's help, I have produced a man!" Could this have been the first man she had after the fall? Prior to it she had minimal or no pain, now it was increased, which may have prompted her to say what she said, with her now acknowledging, in her fallen state, her need to depend and rely on God. All very interesting . . . but I don't think we will know for sure. I would like to see what others think of these viewpoints. Enjoy.