dwinkjr

actually, I do not trust DateLine nor any of the other prpaganda shows.

they are for entertainment, they are written up for entertainment, with the guise of being news.

there has been many many shows that have been put on that have been falsified.

some had to be done with trickery of hidden cameras and set up interviews, ( which i have seen done while knowing the facts of both sides and watched as peoples lives have been torn apart. 

I have watched as TV hosts, have given away troop locations on national/world wide television. 

for instance, if ol' Ted says the grass is green, i would be checking it out for myself, and not relying on him what so ever. 

we even need to be careful of 20 / 20 and 60 minutes, date line, night line, and others.

even Christians are more apt to believe a mass media program such as these then they do the Bible and the power spoken of in the Word of God, or even the Word of God.

most people will recognize the voice of most TV talk show host, but do not have a clue as to the voice of the Shepherd.

mike

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While I agree with you about the mass media, and the entertainment industry. Can you really sit there and advocate for Benny Hinn and his lifestyle? How about his teachings? The man is led by A spirit, but it doesnt seem to be THE Holy Spirit. We are to judge a tree by its fruit, Mr Hinn's fruit is rotten to the core.

God Bless,

Dave

Edited to fix spelling errors, seems I am not capable of typing this morning.

You need to donate where your heart directs you.

Aside from that, this statement has me concerned.

This month I received money from the VA claim I had placed last Sept.

Why would you place a claim with the VA, if you didn't need the money for yourself? Essentially, you taken from the tax payers, and gave it away.

VA benefits are for veterans who need he money.

 

I guess I don't understand how you could put in for a benefit, that you yourself did not need.

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You are way off base here brother, the question is not do I need this money, the question is does somebody else need it more then I.

God Bless,

Dave

Your mother and friends were right. There are numerous Christian organizations that help with the poor and elderly and children and spread the Gospel to them. This is what is commanded of us in scripture and is the heart of Jesus and the

It's funny . . . nobody gripes about people giving money to the victims of the tsunami through any organization (well, maybe except for the Red Cross due to business malpractice issues). Yet, seek to restore relations between Christians and Jews, and people complain.

I'm with you , Snow!

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While I understand what you are saying Neb, I don't think you fully understand what DE was saying here. We all must agree that it is far more important that this Jew finds Jesus than that they get a trip to Isreal. What DE said was actually promoting relations between Christians and Jews, in this scenario I like DE would only donate if I knew the one I was sending home was a Messianic who could help to further the Kingdom of Christ amongst his/her people.

God Bless,

Dave

Check NFL.com-

Julius Jones just broke his knee cap playing basketball in a charity event.

t.

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You know Ted I was about to come after you when I read this I figured if it was true it had to be your fault.

GO COWBOYS.... Lets just hope all the old timers they been picking up can make it on the field without their canes.

God Bless,

Dave

Here is a statement of Faith from a CofC College.

Both the Old and New Testaments have been given by divine revelation and are the standard of authority in religious matters.

The Old Testament prepared the way for Christ, and the New Testament fulfills and supersedes it, making the New Testament the final authority for those who have lived since Christ's death on the cross.

There is one God, who is the creator and sustainer of the universe and who takes a direct interest in every human being.  The Godhead consists of God the Father; Christ the Son; and the Holy Spirit, the Comforter.  Christ was born of a virgin, died on the cross to make atonement for man's sins, arose bodily from the tomb, and ascended into heaven, where he presently reigns.  There is a heaven to be enjoyed by the faithful and a hell to be endured by the disobedient.

God created all people with a need for fellowship with him and the ability to choose to obey his commands.  Man cannot earn salvation from sin but can qualify to receive it as a gift of grace through submission to the will of God.  The scripturally appointed means for receiving this gift is faith in Christ, repentance, confession of faith, and baptism (immersion).  The transformation in character, conduct, and relationship with God that man experiences in this process is the new birth (regeneration).  Christians are expected to live in accordance with the teachings of the New Testament.

Christ established the church for the mutual encouragement, instruction, and assistance of Christians and for the evangelization of the world through the proclamation of His gospel.  Jesus prayed for unity among his disciples and commanded love for one another as the means to maintain it.  The church was originally organized so that, once the apostles passed away, individual congregations would be independent of any central human authority and would be guided solely by the unchanging standard of Scripture.  Congregations are to be bound together by common purpose and cooperative effort.

Each congregation is to assemble for worship on every first day of the week according to the teachings of the New Testament.  In contrast to the elaborate temple ritual of the Old Testament, worship in the Christian age is to be in spirit and truth.  Accordingly, the worship of the New Testament church consists of teaching God's word, offering prayers and thanksgiving from the heart, singing praise to God and encouragement to one another with the human voice, voluntary giving as a means of expressing appreciation to God for his blessings and sharing them with others, and partaking of the Lord's Supper in commemoration of Christ's death.  Genuine charismatic gifts, such as prophecy, speaking in foreign languages, and miraculous healing were exercised in the first century but not perpetuated afterward.

On the basis of principles established at creation, the New Testament assigns roles of leadership in public worship and supervision of the local congregation to male Christians.  The scriptural organization of the local congregation consists of a plurality of elders (also called bishops or shepherds), who have oversight of the church; deacons, who assist the elders in ministering to the needs of members; and evangelists, who proclaim the gospel and teach under the authority of the elders.  The offices of apostle and prophet ended with the passing of the miraculous age of charismatic gifts.  Women are a powerful force in the church through the influence of their character and spiritual insights and through their efforts in teaching other women and children, helping the needy, and engaging in personal evangelism.

Christianity as taught by Christ and the apostles provides for the needs of the individual, the family, and society.  An understanding of God's sacrificial love enables each person to recognize his worth and potential in the sight of God, relieves his guilt and anxiety, and motivates him to conduct his life according to the highest standards.  The example of Christ fosters humility, submission to authority, and service to others.  Through its teaching, its communal worship, its fellowship, and its mission of evangelism and benevolence, the church strengthens both individuals and families and has a strong impact for good wherever its efforts and influence reach. [Written by Lawrence E. Barclay, Faculty Member, the Southern Christian University Turner School of Theology]

Now I challenge you to give me Firm biblical support for all of these points. Can you do it SD?

Now as far as denominationalism goes, I am partially going to agree with you. Denominational seperation is wrong, denominations for worship style, minor theological beliefs and such is fine and even necessary. The problem comes when folks start to believe that everyone but them is wrong and they are the only TRUE church as then you fail to fellowship with your brothers and sisters from the other denominations and furthermore do not even accept them as brothers and sisters because they do not belong to your denomination.

God Bless,

Dave

Living In Hell 

Author Unknown

DAY #1

Dear John,

I died today ... It's a lot different than I expected. You see, I always thought dying would bring me into a world that is foggy and hazy. But this place is crystal clear ... it is even more real than life on earth. I still have a body and can think, talk, and feel. Right now they have me in a line getting registered I guess. John, I am kind of afraid. The attendants around me don't look too happy ... and just on ahead at the front of the line I can see a little sign that says Hades on it. One thing is for sure ... this sure ain't Heaven. John ... I'm afraid. Am I going to burn in hell?

Your friend,

Frank

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DAY #2

John,

HELP! It's worse than I ever anticipated. I am surrounded by darkness, yet I can still feel the flames. I can smell my flesh as it burns. I am dead yet alive. I am in agonizing pain. I am thirsty ... my whole body feels like it is about to explode. Oh John, why can't I die? Why won't God just let me die. But there is hope ... they say there is a Judgment Day coming up where we will stand before God and He will judge our case and lives personally. Friend, my beloved friend John, I hope you never come here! I hope no one else will ever have to suffer like this. I am in pain.

Your friend,

Frank

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YEAR #1,096

Dear John,

Today was Judgment Day. The hope I previously had is now but a distant memory. Now I know nothing but terror awaits me. The flames await to consume my flesh eternally. When my name was called, I went to stand before the Great White Throne. He who sat up on it called or the Book of Life ... as he scanned its pages, I looked at the multitude of angels and believers behind His throne. Then I couldn't believe what I saw.

As I focused my eyes I spotted you among the saints. There you were awaiting eternal bliss while I awaited eternal damnation. You sang songs of joy while I screamed shrieks of terror. Suddenly the voice of the enthroned God caught my attention, "Your name has not been found in the book, therefore I sentence you to burn in Gehenna, the lake of fire forever ... without hope .... without escape." I am terrified as I await my punishment. I have no hope.

Your friend,

Frank

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Day After Judgment Day

John,

I can feel my heart pounding in my chest. The angels who have been designated to cast me into the lake of fire are coming down the hallway. I can hear their footsteps. I have heard about this Gehenna. They say it is worse than Hades. How can it be? I cannot bear it.

The angels are at the door. Oh no ... NO! They are opening it and they are looking at me, John, they are grabbing me and carrying me out of the room! I can already smell the burning sulfur and brimstone. I can see the edge of the cliff where Hell burns! John this is it! I am without hope!

We are coming closer, closer! My heart is bursting with fear. They are holding me out over the edge of Hell ... I am dangling over its flames! I am damned forever! They have thrown me in! FIRE!! PAIN!! HELL!! WHY JOHN?!! WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL ME ABOUT JESUS?

Your friend,

Frank

P.S.

Wish you were here.

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Makes one think ,doesnt it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So would you rather your family and friends look at you like your nuts now or curse you for eternity? Time grows short friends, let us go out into the world and spread teh Good News. Christ died for our sins and he is RISEN, lets RISE from the flesh and FOLLOW HIM.

God Bless,

Dave

Welcome to Worthy

God Bless,

Dave

Faithie,

Please understand this is a public forum, although the mods and admins do our best to keep things in order we will never catch everything. I would ask why your friend left? what happened that she felt lied to or decieved, was the situation reported? I'd say you need not leave us Faithie but merely help us keep this lying and decieving off the boards, you see it going on you report it, bring it to the attention of a Board admin, even if you bring it to a watchmen's attention sometimes if a mod is not online we can get one to be

So Faithie while I appreciate your struggle and understand all too well how you feel, I pray that you will see leaving is not the answer, help us clean up these boards we all love so dearly.

God Bless,

Dave

P.S. That goes for everyone, there are only so many admins here and there are thousands of new posts each day, we can never monitor them all, please if you see something offensive, deceitful, or out of line in any way report it immediately via the report post option or by PM'ing any of the admins.

Pre-Tribber here...

I read the entire series and enjoyed them very much, except I felt that the entire last book should have just been done as a good chapter or two at the end of book 11.

I know of the Lord but no, if I were to die right now, I don't know where I'd go.

I would suggest your first priority then be to get right with the Lord, for He can help to reconcile these matters for you.

You see we are all sinners, (Rom 3:10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one)

Jesus Christ was the only Sinless(righteous) man to ever walk this earth. He is God in the flesh. He being sinless took on our sin and bore the penalty of death for us so that we may have eternal life.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

before reading any further I pray you will accept Christ as your saviour, pray to God now, let him know you confess you are a sinner and that you can do nothing to save yourself, and thank you thank Him for sending His Son to die on the cross for your sins. Through Christ Jesus we are made whole, we are promised eternal life in Glory with God. Believe on him and accept this most precious and important gift.

For more information on this please click here

Yes, his grandmother knows God & she does more for my son in that manner than I did. Yes, she teaches him good values.

But has she led him to Christ? Knowing and believing are two different things sister. It sounds like being there is not detrimental to him, but my first thoughts still stand, this child should be with his mother.

No, my husband & son have not been close.

I would suggest you work on building that relationship. When you spend the weekends with your son, include your husband, do things that encourage bonding between the 2 of them.

BTW.. Where is your sons father in all this?

My oldest son loves his baby brother

And yet he has no desire to live with you and be a role model to his younger brother? Talk with him tell him you miss him and want him with you and also mention that the baby could use a big brother like him around more then he is now.

but can't stand my daughter, middle child, she's hard to deal with.

We all have our moments, what makes her so hard to deal with? Is she his half or full sister? I think there is need for alot of healing with in your family at this point. I think that healing starts with Christ, Seek Him and share the Gospel with the rest of your family.

God Bless,

Dave

P.S. I donot mean to embarass you, but we will all pray for your acceptance of the greatest gift, in Salvation through Christ Jesus. Please let us know how things work out.

  I have an 11 yr old son who lives with his grandmother. She is my ex's mother, no relation to me. My current husband & I separated & I moved in with my sons grandmother as her husband had just left her. Well, my son has always been very close to his grandmother. I found out I was pregnant & after some thought I decided to go back to my husband to try & make this work. My sons grandmother asked if he could stay with her to finish out that school year & that would give my husband, my son's step-dad, a chance to iron out the wrinkles. My son liked the idea, I was a little uneasy about it but I agreed. Here it is a year later & my son doesn't want to come back. I told his grandmother that summer I was coming to get him & she told me I'd mess him up. My son has been through so much because of my bad judgement. I was 16 when I had him, I am now about to be 29. My husband & I still have a few problems but things are much, much better. I miss my boy terribly & thought I was doing what was right for him at that time. My son has opened up & made friends. His once non-existent personality is blossoming. He's happy where he is but I'm dying because I can't have him. I mean I can but that would mean I'd have to make him come home against his will. He's already angry with me. I do not want him resenting me anymore than he already does. I have him almost every weekend but it's not enough for me. Am I being selfish? Should I just leave him with his grandmother since he's happy? What if I brought him home & he stayed angry? I'm so scared but I miss him so bad. I can't stand the thought of him growing up & not thinking of me as his mother. It's all my fault. I just want what's best for him. He's been though so much & he's finally happy. I try not to get selfish & just snatch him back home but it gets very hard. I hope someone can help me with this. Thanks so much! This has been such a mind & heart battle & I'm tired of just not knowing what to do....

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Ok I would like to address a couple of things here if you don't mind. First do you know the Saviour? If you were to die right now can you say for certain where you would go?

Second, your husband is not the boys father, have they ever had a close parental type relationship? Are the problems you and your husband have ones that could affect your sons life? How about the baby? could this be part of why your son does not want to come home?

Is the boys Grandmother saved? Will she teach your son about Christ and also the values you would want your son to have?

Now pending the answers to these questions. He is young what he wants and what may be best for him can be two totally different things. You are the parent he is the child, if you want what is best for him, then you do what is best for him even if it goes against what he wants.

God Bless,

Dave

I am sorry that you think Jesus drank alcohol, but the scriptures specifically said he drank "wine", yet if you look, it was "The fruit of the vine" that he drank. Now if yoiu knew anything about the history of the english word "wine", you would know that it did not come to exclusively mean "Alcohol" until the time of prohibition. Before then, the same word, "Wine" could refer both to alcohol, and "Grape Juice". Jesus did not drink fermented wine. He drank new wine, which is fresh grape juice.

Are you familiar with the fermentation process? Do you realize they did not have refrigeration in Biblical times? You realize Grapes are a seasonal crop? Now If you understand these things you would know that their was no way to keep the Grape Juice from fermenting, without refrigigeration by the 3rd day the juice would have started to ferment and become wine. So unless they made new juice every 2days, which means they only had it seasonally then they were drinking alcoholic wine.

Do you know that the people at the wedding where Jesus turned the water into wine were NOT drinking alcohol? How do I know this? The Governor, and apparantly everyone else there was SOBER even after they had drank the original stocks of wine. He was sober to realize that the wine Jesus had made tasted better than whatever they had been drinking.

What does Sober have to do with the Wine having alcohol or not? You see the whole idea here is they ran out of Wine before the celebrating was done This would mean they had too little for everyone that was there, you are assuming that by the time they ran out everyone had had enough to get looped. You are basing this strictly off assumption and very little fact.

Do you know that the wine used in the OT rituals was not alcoholic? It couldn't be. There could be no leaven (fermentation) in the bread for the meal offerings. There could be no blemish on the animals for the sacrifices. There could be no sickness or deformity in the priesthood. There could be no fermentation in the wine for the drink offerings. Does the Bible forbid alcohol to the believer? Absolutely!

Please sight your sources that this was a non-alcoholic wine.

Duet. 21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: 19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; 20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

Here we see drunkenness compared to rebellion, disobedience, and gluttony.

Duet. 29:5 And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot. 6 Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the LORD your God.

Here we see WINE AND SRONG DRINK(alcohol) dulls your ability to discern God! No mentioin is made of the fence law of "Well, you guys didn't get drunk, you had a few beers, but that's ok." NO, he said they hadn't drank ANY wine or strong drink.

duet. 29 18, lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood; 19 And it come to pass, when he heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I walk in the imagination of mine heart, to add drunkenness to thirst: 20 The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.

Yet elswhere in Deut. we see this.

Deu 14:23 And thou shalt eat before Jehovah thy God, in the place which he shall choose, to cause his name to dwell there, the tithe of thy grain, of thy new wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herd and of thy flock; that thou mayest learn to fear Jehovah thy God always.

Deu 14:24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it, because the place is too far from thee, which Jehovah thy God shall choose, to set his name there, when Jehovah thy God shall bless thee;

Deu 14:25 then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thy hand, and shalt go unto the place which Jehovah thy God shall choose:

Deu 14:26 and thou shalt bestow the money for whatsoever thy soul desireth, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul asketh of thee; and thou shalt eat there before Jehovah thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou and thy household.

Context is very important when studying the word of God.

Again, "Little leaven leaveneth the whole lump."

Leviticus 10:9 - Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:

Now you ARE the Temple of God, and do you put alcohol in your body, when it was a sin to go into the tabernacle having drank alcohol?

Numbers 6:3 - He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.

Jesus did not drink alcohol. HE WAS A NAZARITE. THE NAZARITE. IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A SIN TO DO SO.

By your interpertation Christ couldn't of even drank grape juice or eaten grapes.

Num 6:4 All the days of his separation shall he eat nothing that is made of the grape-vine, from the kernels even to the husk.

maybe a further examination of the context is in order?

Proverbs 20:1 - Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Proverbs 31:4 - It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: 5 Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.

Do you know that WE are kings and priests to God? Do you know it is a sin for kings and priests to drink alcohol? It was a SIN for the priest to drink alcohol.

Revelation 1:6 - And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 5:10 - And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Micah 2:11 - If a man walking in the spirit and falsehood do lie, saying, I will prophesy unto thee of wine and of strong drink; he shall even be the prophet of this people.

FALSE PROPHETS tell people it is ok to drink alcohol, and the sinners gladly hear it.

Then there is the common sense witness that virtually EVERY time someone in scripture got to drinking, they and the people around them got in serioius trouble. Do you know that Noah apparantly commited and act of homosexuality with his own son after he got drunk? Lot committed incest TWICE after getting drunk.

Do you know that no alcoholic started off drinking, thinking, "You know, I really want to be a bum and a drunk one day?" Do you know that they too lied to themselves and said, "I just drink alcohol because I want to come home and relax and just have a beer or two?" EVERY drunk started with just one sip of alcohol. EVERY pervert started with just one sin. EVERY addict started with just one puff on a cigarette, or some other drug.

A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

It is time to grow up Church.

Sorry, have to jump back in here. 

I can't see being a soldier, or driving even in the same boat as comparable to Drinking or doing drugs.  Not even apples to oranges, more like apples to beef.

The point is not in whether the topics are comparable the point once again is where does one draw the line. When do we stop giving up things that are ok, and start educating the masses on what the Bible says.

Are you seriously going to march around the bar explaining and preaching the word about how your one or two beers are okay.... and God is okay with that.  We aren't talking about the future.  NOW, people would see you and think, that you have a crutch too.

We aren't talking about what is culturally acceptable, we are talking about living in a way that would not tolerate sin to creep in.  Like I said in a previous response....

So if you were at home, and no one was around, and you decided, hey I'd like to enjoy a couple beers, nobody is here and I am comfortable with it. So you have a few beers, or a couple. But then an hour later, you get a call that someone needs you to come immediately to the hospital? Hmmmmm if you had 3 pepsi's you could drive yourself......

Here you are assuming that when one drinks they are drinking in excess to the point of legal intoxication, this is not the case for anyone who is drinking responsibly and in moderation.

No I am not. Seriously, if you had just one or 2 beers you would drive? I find that unacceptable. You don't really know your own tolerance, you may think you do, but you do not. I am not only speaking about legal intoxication, say that the police officer goes to your church, he is new, and he asks you if you had anything to drink and you say yes. Are you seriously going to break out the Bible and explain to him that it is okay with God? Really, I feel you are gettting a little semantical. The idea is, if it would hinder, even if you feel it is okay, you should obstain for the edification of God and his Church. God will bless you more if you are willing to sacrifice for the sake of winning others to him. This is not only done in preaching and teaching, this is the cashier at the store where you bought that beer, she doesn't know that you are only going to drink one or two, even if that matters. She just sees the beer, and then you greet her with a farewell, "God Bless You", and you have one misguided cashier. You JUST CAN'T KNOW how much what you do in living affects others daily lives.

It is legalists who have created this false ideal that alcohol is inherently sinful, and will try to claim Christ drank Juice not wine. What bothers me more then somebody having an occasional drink is folks coming on here posting like alcohol in and of itself is sin, and therefore make Christ a sinner. Legalism in this sense can cause more damage then any Christian having a couple drinks.

This isn't about limiting the Christian in his/her ojurney to holiness, it is about creating a journey with the least casualties, and a journey that is God centered. Drinking, smoking, doing drugs, etc... these are selfish things. They are personal choices that have nothing to do with God. They give the individual a pay off, a release, a high, a buzz, that satisfies a longing. But they neglect to see that God can fill that longing. He can be the there to quench your thirst at dinner, he can be there to help you chill after a very long work day, he can be there in those moments when you just need to relax. I find it to be, a lack of faith that God is enough.

Like above, it would be nice to think that they things we do in private don't affect other people but they do eventually. I know this full well. Things affect you, and whether you choose to think so or not, you cannot hide who you truly are in the end. I again, ask you to answer the above question asked by me in an earlier post.

What kind of example would you be if on your way to the hospital you were pulled over, and found to have been drinking alcohol, or under the influence of drugs?

What would you do if you chose not to drive, call someone and say, well, I need you to come take me to the hospital, because I drank alcohol tonight, and I don't want to take the chance. Whether you think that the person you call will be okay with it or not, it is showing poor judgement, and an inaccurate witness of a Christian striving for holiness.

Again at no point do a drink to a point that I cannot function normally, nor is it for a buzz or to relax. It is simply because after a hard days work, I on occassion enjoy a beer or two. This does not constitute a lack of faith that God can provide everything I need. You are making false assumptions based off of your personal history.

How do you know you can't function normally. I watched a study where they had a group of many people gather at a hotel bar, where no one was driving, it was very controlled, and they had the bar open. The asked people beforehand, how many drinks they thought they could handle etc. They kept interviewing the participants every hour, and they would estimate as to how many drinks they had had, and then they offered them a simulated driving test. Ones used by drivers ed courses to help students learn on. And there were a few who said they had only had a couple drinks and felt like they could totally drive home if they needed to. Both people ran a couple lights, one ran a person over, and the other crossed over the center line several times. Their interviews were obvious on the effects their "2 glasses of wine" or 2 drinks had had on them, but they were able the next day to see the tapes of their experiment. MANY of the particpants were so embarrassed by how they acted, and reacted on film. They laughed at how together they really thought they were, but noticed that on film they were a little tipsy. A few were interviewed then, and they said they never would have guessed that they were that out of control. They thought they were totally in control, they thought they always had been very conservative with Liquor and were very good at limiting themselves. YOU JUST CAN'T KNOW.

Lastly, this isn't based on my personal history. This is based solely on HOLINESS. The Holiness that God has called us all to. And you can try and save the world and country by re-educating them on how you feel God really feels on Alcohol and Drugs, while I will be living a life that will show them I need nothing but Jesus, there is NOTHING that can satisfy me like Him. I am not talking about the future. The future is guided by the now, and right now, I will deny self, and my selfish desires, and I will try to live in a way that no one will question what my beliefs are or even be given the chance to.

My whole life I grew up in a very liberal, hippie home. All things were geared to what made everyone feel good. So as you can imagine I saw ALOT. It has always been acceptable. I never EVER would have questioned what I knew, cussing, drinking, smoking, drugs, sex, disrespect for authority,etc. That is what I knew. But I found Jesus. And I let HIM take over my life, and I told him that if there were things that I needed to change, even if it seemed stupid and menial at the time, that I wanted him to show me. And he has. And now I see the difference. It was never even really a sacrifice, because I was truly happy, free, and fulfilled when God filled that part of my life with righteous behavior.

Alcohol is a deal breaker to me. I have seen the serious damages and am affected my self by the destruction it can cause. It has no place in my life. I know that I have an addictive personality, I will not even subject myself to the idea of it, because why would I give Sin a chance to slip in?

Everyone's ideals and opinions are based on their personal history, their is no way around that, the key is realizing that just because you feel this way about a particular topic does not mean that everyone does, or even that God does. Too often we take our personal convictions and pronounce them as they are the laws of God.

I don't mean to sound judgemental, but I have really come to a point where I can't beat around the bush any longer. I just feel like you are pulling at straws to justify your selfish habits and wants. It is absolutely your choice, and I will not be judged for that, but I cannot accept it any longer, those who believe to the contrary to the principles of Holiness, to come on here and say it is acceptable. It is not. Not by any stretch of imagination or scripture. God does not tolerate selfish desire that COULD hinder his flock. The God I Love and Serve would never tolerate this behavior.

I apologize for the bluntness, but I feel it had to be said. GB

MHO

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God Bless,

Dave

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No need to apologize for how you feel, but you do need to make it clear this is how YOU feel. I in good concience can continue to have an occasional drink, I know that it does not come between me and my Saviour in the slightest. However I am led to avoid legalism completely, the whole thing really leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and IMHO is more damaging to the Gospel then alcohol, smoking, tattoos, etc... ever will be.

God Bless,

Dave

Sorry, have to jump back in here. 

I can't see being a soldier, or driving even in the same boat as comparable to Drinking or doing drugs.  Not even apples to oranges, more like apples to beef.

The point is not in whether the topics are comparable the point once again is where does one draw the line. When do we stop giving up things that are ok, and start educating the masses on what the Bible says.

We are talking about what is culturally acceptable, we are talking about living in a way that would not tolerate sin to creep in.  Like I said in a previous response....

So if you were at home, and no one was around, and you decided, hey I'd like to enjoy a couple beers, nobody is here and I am comfortable with it. So you have a few beers, or a couple. But then an hour later, you get a call that someone needs you to come immediately to the hospital? Hmmmmm if you had 3 pepsi's you could drive yourself......

Here you are assuming that when one drinks they are drinking in excess to the point of legal intoxication, this is not the case for anyone who is drinking responsibly and in moderation.

This isn't about limiting the Christian in his/her ojurney to holiness, it is about creating a journey with the least casualties, and a journey that is God centered. Drinking, smoking, doing drugs, etc... these are selfish things. They are personal choices that have nothing to do with God. They give the individual a pay off, a release, a high, a buzz, that satisfies a longing. But they neglect to see that God can fill that longing. He can be the there to quench your thirst at dinner, he can be there to help you chill after a very long work day, he can be there in those moments when you just need to relax. I find it to be, a lack of faith that God is enough.

Like above, it would be nice to think that they things we do in private don't affect other people but they do eventually. I know this full well. Things affect you, and whether you choose to think so or not, you cannot hide who you truly are in the end. I again, ask you to answer the above question asked by me in an earlier post.

What kind of example would you be if on your way to the hospital you were pulled over, and found to have been drinking alcohol, or under the influence of drugs?

What would you do if you chose not to drive, call someone and say, well, I need you to come take me to the hospital, because I drank alcohol tonight, and I don't want to take the chance. Whether you think that the person you call will be okay with it or not, it is showing poor judgement, and an inaccurate witness of a Christian striving for holiness.

Again at no point do a drink to a point that I cannot function normally, nor is it for a buzz or to relax. It is simply because after a hard days work, I on occassion enjoy a beer or two. This does not constitute a lack of faith that God can provide everything I need. You are making false assumptions based off of your personal history.

MHO

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God Bless,

Dave

So, if you tell a lie, is it all right to tell a "little one"?

1 Corinthians 5:6 - Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 

Galatians 5:9 - A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

Now you may not like to hear that, but it really is the truth. A "Little lie" is the same as a "Big Lie". A little drunk, is the same as wasted. A little smoke, is the same as hooked. It is all sin.

So Christ was a wasted sinner when he drank wine? Alcohol in and of itself is not Sin, where lying is, so you are comparing apples and oranges here.

So instead of teaching younger Christians to be responsible in all their actions you suggest we teach them not to act at all? So then what when they are out on their own and get exposed to something new?

To say alcohol comsumption is for the sole purpose of altering ones mind is nonesense, I could say the same thing about anything with caffeine in it. So Where do you draw the line? This brings me to one of the other problems with legalism you pick and choose items that you view as being problematic yet ignore those that are more widely accepted.

Do you drink Coffee? eat chocolate? Eat fatty foods? Eat just for the sake of eating even if you arn't really hungry? Eat to console depression? Watch TV for entertainment? Read secular books? Listen to secular music? Please tell me where does one draw the line? And when drawing the line how do you keep from being a hypocrit?

Problem is, Caffiene doesn't dull one's senses, etc. There are literally dozens of admonitions against drunkenness in the Bible, and between those, and the two verses I quoted above, and the known fact that cigarettes and alcohol destroy your body, it is obviously sin. Do we destroy our bodies? Do we destroy what God gave the Gifts of the Spirit to heal? Will a Christian knowingly keep smoking/drinking until they end up with lung cancer or liver disease, and then go to the altar and ask for healing? You may well do so, and the Lord may even answer, but you'd be better off quitting right now. Which is the better testimony? "The Lord convicted me and helped me stop smoking/drinking." or "Well, you know I got cancer from all those smokes I should have quit years ago, but praise God! He healed me. I think I'll quit now."

Caffeine is addictive and if allowed to do so can interfere with your Christian walk. say one is used to having a couple cups of coffee a morning, but on this particular Sunday morning they donot have time to drink any coffee before Church. So now they are not wide awake, lethargic, they have a headache from Caffeine withdrawls, and cannot enjoy the fellowship and worship of their Sunday service.

Now as far as destroying our bodies goes, there is nothing you can do that will not destroy your body. These bodies are temporary, they will be remade into glorified bodies with the second coming of our Lord. Does this mean we should go out and do things to excess and purposely abuse our bodies? No of course not, but to say one should avoid anything because it COULD cause health issues later is just plain silly.

Regarding tattoos.

Leviticus 19:28 - Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.

Leviticus 21:5 - They shall not make baldness upon their head, neither shall they shave off the corner of their beard, nor make any cuttings in their flesh.

I suggest taking a better look at the context of these verses

There is also a definite difference between "Legalism" and "Holiness". Legalism is trying to earn favor with God through good works, such as church attendance, tithing/offering, reading 'x' chapters a day of the Bible, praying 30 minutes a day, etc, etc. Basically it is placing one's faith in ordinance and regimin.

Legalism is taking your personal convictions and opinions and turning them into the law of God.

1 Corinthians 7:18 - Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.

1 Corinthians 7:19 - Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

So then we see that the commandments, the "Thou shalt/shalt nots." is NOT what Paul was addressing regarding "Circumcision". He was addressing the fact that the Jews believe they were saved through the seal of the Old Covenant, which was actually never the case. It was always by faith.

Galatians 5:2 - Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

Galatians 5:3 - For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Galatians 5:6 - For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Galatians 5:11 - And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.

Galatians 6:15 - For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Gal. 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

In otherwords, the ordinance in and of itself is neither good nor evil. It won't save you, but then again people who have been circumcised, observe "blue laws/sabbath", etc, are not sinning either. HOWEVER if they go around thinking that doing/not doing such saves them, or rebuking people that don't do them, or claiming that it somehow adds something to their spiritual condition, then it IS sin. Why? Because that is "Another Gospel".

Kinda like saying Alcohol consumption is a sin?

Now HOPEFULLY the "New Creature" will walk after the Spirit(Rom. 6, 8; Gal. 5:22-26), and not the Flesh(Rom. 7; Gal. 5:19-21). We see then, that many of the "Works of the Flesh", when compared to "A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump." it basically means, "Don't do it, period." Which brings up the other word:

Holiness is being abstinent, or seperated from sin. Big difference.

Psalms 119:101 - I have refrained my feet from every evil way, that I might keep thy word.

Proverbs 8:13 - The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

2 Corinthians 7:1 - Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Ephesians 4:24 - And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Leviticus 20:7 - Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the LORD your God.

1 Peter 1:15 - But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

1 Peter 1:16 - Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Revelation 18:20 - Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

1 Thessalonians 3:13 - To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

1 Thessalonians 4:7 - For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

Hebrews 12:14 - Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

Now this is a process. As far as the Work of the Cross of Jesus Christ goes, all that will ever need to be done on his part has been fulfilled. HOWEVER, we are still in this mortal clay, and consequently cannot be totally sanctified in terms of total holiness. Because of the Blood, God sees us as Holy, Righteous, Justified, Innocent, NOt Guilty, Clean, Sanctified, and any other good word you can think of, because in truth he is looking at the workds of Christ on the Cross, and of the Holy Spirit in our hearts. HOWEVER, we have from Paul that we certainly have not attained, nor will atain in this life. The most sanctified believer alive is as a child compared to what we will be when the Lord calls us home:

1 Cor. 13: 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

This is one of the most oft quoted passages from Pauline epistles, and yet it is one of the least understood by any of us. No matter how far the Lord has brought us, about the only thing we really can understand in this life is that sin is far worse than we can imagine, we have much farther to go than we can imagine, and that the Lord loves us more than we can imagine.

The devil loves to make you see a gray line, but all the Lord sees is black and white. He says to the Laodiceans, "I would that you were hot or cold, but because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will vommit you out of my mouth." Friends, I don't want to be the vommit. I don't think you do either.

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God Bless,

Dave

Smoking? Sin or not? again this boils down to personal conviction. Am I saying this to justify my actions? nope... I say it because it is the truth I have been led to, for me it is ok to have a beer or two with dinner, for an alcoholic it is not. We have to be careful how legalistic we become.

Greetings Dwink,

Though to an extent I might agree with you, as I read your posts, it sounds like you are attempting to justify your own sins. One thing you haven't mentioned is the example you or I might set for others. This perhaps is the most important aspect of what we can or should not do. I am reminded by Paul:

1 Corinthians 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

1 Corinthians 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

Romans 14:13-17 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. 14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. 16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of: 17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

When others see you drinking, are they seeing "Christ" drinking? If they do, then do you "justify" you actions in hopes that if they are weak they won't begin embibing themselves? As shown above, it is more "expedient" for us to avoid any hint of "sin", so as not to cause a fellow Christian to fall, or for that matter, even unbelievers, when they see you, do they consider you a hypocrite?

Well, I am not accusing you of anything. But these are thoughts you need to consider when you are justifying your actions.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

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DE,

Who created this standard of alcohol being so terrible? Why is it now that others who see me have a drink or two at dinner would get a bad impression because of it? I would much rather educate those on what the bible teaches then teach them to condemn what is not sin. The Bible clearly teaches against Being a Drunkard, but it is also very clear that alcohol was consumed in biblical times and by Christ himself.

I understand what you are saying, but lets say tomorrow it becomes "un-Christianlike" to be a soldier, and all the unsaved folks in the world see Christians in the armed forces as hypocrits, do we then as Christians stop joining the armed forces? How about if driving cars becomes "un-christian" do we then stop driving cars to not hurt our image in the eyes of unbelievers? So maybe we should all renounce everything we own and go join an amish community? But then after we do that, maybe somebody says its un-christian to make those horses pull those buggies, So we stop using horses for transportation.

You see where I am going with this, this is not a matter of whether I need to justify my actions, I couldn't care less if I had a drink here of there, but this whole mindset of agreeing with the mass opinion as opposed to properly educating them just doesn't sit well at all.

God Bless,

Dave

Ok I while I agree with you for the most part, I also must disagree with you. You use alcohol as one of your examples, Alcohol in and of itself is not sinful, it is the intent behind it. Why is it sin for some and not for others? Some are prone to abuse and addiction while others are not. This is a personal thing.

Tattoos? is getting a tattoo a sin? for some it may be, for others it is not. Again everything comes down to the heart of the matter. Why are you doing what you are doing? that is what decides sin or not.

Smoking? Sin or not? again this boils down to personal conviction. Am I saying this to justify my actions? nope... I say it because it is the truth I have been led to, for me it is ok to have a beer or two with dinner, for an alcoholic it is not. We have to be careful how legalistic we become.

God Bless,

Dave

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Alcohol, is exactly what I mean. Just because it isn't a "sin to you" doesn't mean that it couldn't become that, and it could also hinder a younger brother or sister in Christ. What if they haven't figured out what God is leading them to believe about it, it could warp their sense of God and their idea of Holiness. We are told in Romans to remember our younger brother or sister in Christ in all that we do. I think drinking is a very selfish act. It alters your state of mind. Why isn't God enough for you, that you have to alter your mind?

It is something that could possibly cause you to make a provision for the flesh, which could dull our love for Him or diminish our sensitivity to sin. Why would you even take that chance? Did you read the devotional? Removing anything that could possibly dull your love for God. It does. Alcohol dulls alot, and that is its sole purpose. "to relax, chill" pretty selfish I think. Drink Milk!

I am sure all the alcoholics of the world intended on enjoying alcohol in moderation.

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So instead of teaching younger Christians to be responsible in all their actions you suggest we teach them not to act at all? So then what when they are out on their own and get exposed to something new?

To say alcohol comsumption is for the sole purpose of altering ones mind is nonesense, I could say the same thing about anything with caffeine in it. So Where do you draw the line? This brings me to one of the other problems with legalism you pick and choose items that you view as being problematic yet ignore those that are more widely accepted.

Do you drink Coffee? eat chocolate? Eat fatty foods? Eat just for the sake of eating even if you arn't really hungry? Eat to console depression? Watch TV for entertainment? Read secular books? Listen to secular music? Please tell me where does one draw the line? And when drawing the line how do you keep from being a hypocrit?

God Bless,

Dave

Now yes, we should definitely take every reasonable measure to get rid of materiale that promotes the flesh. This includes 99.9999% of secular music, movies, and television, BTW. I don't claim to have attained anything, but that the Lord has done a work in me, but now I am disgusted by country and pop music, which are comparatively "Soft Core" compared to other brands. They used to be my favorite musics. Now I cannot abide it. When they play country music in the lab at work, and I have to listen to the guy sing about how drunk he got, or how he's cheating on his wife, or she left him, etc, it really makes me sick to my spirit.

Why do Christians need to listen to that garbage anyway? Why not sing Amazing Grace? Why not get some Christian albums and play those? We are commanded to do so in the Bible.

Ephesians 5:19 - Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; 

Colossians 3:16 - Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. 

James 5:13 - Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.

Now you can't very well be singing Spiritual Songs and Hymns, if you are singing "Your Cheating Heart Will Tell on You." You can't be singing Spiritual songs if you are whistling along with Britney Spears "You Drive Me Crazy", or Alannis Moresette(sp?). Now I am speaking from experience. Also, most songs that are "Patriotic" or are "True Love Songs" are nearly as bad as the "Lust Songs". What I mean is, why do you love America in the strictest sense? I Love the nation because I live here, and there are certain freedoms I am afforded, but America is an apostate nation, it is not exactly truthful to say "God Bless America." How can he? We are in sin.

This applies to many, many other things. i used to be addcited to games and books about magic. No wonder I had such little growth in the Lord at times!!?? I was in the heart of the very things he despises, and couldn't admit that it was destroying me. this applies to many, many pop movies and video games. Star Wars, Dungeons and Dragons, Worlds Greatest Fairy Tales, The Three Little Pigs!! I kid you not, they are all sin, and not according to my oppinion, but according to the Bible. Oh, you will say, but those are just innocent childrens tales. Some even teach valuable lessons. Well, can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit? No, it cannot. Can you call a "Tree" that uses the fantastic, and magic and sorcery, "Good". Biblically, no, you cannot do that. Sin is sin, no matter how good it looks to the undiscerning eye.

Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

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See what I mean by legalism is dangerous, you have now taken simple entertainment venues that may have caused you to stumble and judged everyone who ever participates in them as being sinning in doing so... This is just simply not true, and this judgemental attitude does nohting to further the kingdom of God.

I enjoy medievil movies, fantasy and RP games, these do not in anyone take away from my relationship with my Saviour, as a matter of fact it is quite the opposite, I play an online RPG called World of Warcraft, I am connected with hundreds even thousans of people all over the world through this game, how often do you have the opportunity to witness to that many people in that many places?

God Bless,

Dave

Ok I while I agree with you for the most part, I also must disagree with you. You use alcohol as one of your examples, Alcohol in and of itself is not sinful, it is the intent behind it. Why is it sin for some and not for others? Some are prone to abuse and addiction while others are not. This is a personal thing.

Tattoos? is getting a tattoo a sin? for some it may be, for others it is not. Again everything comes down to the heart of the matter. Why are you doing what you are doing? that is what decides sin or not.

Smoking? Sin or not? again this boils down to personal conviction. Am I saying this to justify my actions? nope... I say it because it is the truth I have been led to, for me it is ok to have a beer or two with dinner, for an alcoholic it is not. We have to be careful how legalistic we become.

God Bless,

Dave

Ok, I can't control myself so I have to ask this... Did the dinosaurs taste like chicken to the badgers? 

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What would we taste like to a chicken

I would suggest Downloading E-sword from http://www.e-sword.net You can download numerous bible versions and it has the option to view them in parallel.

God Bless,

Dave

I think what Craig was trying to say had nothing to do with addictions.  He was asking if pot WERE legal, would it be a sin to use it in moderation.  I consider moderation to be every once in awhile.  Not an all the time thing.  I enjoy a glass of wine, but I don't have it all the time and I don't live my life in a drunken stupor.  I'm not addicted to wine - or anything else for that matter.  I don't loose control when I have some wine.  I've tried marijuana and never even considered becoming addicted to it.  Again, I never lost control of my senses.  Maybe the problem (again, if it were legal) would lie with the individual and their tendencies toward addiction to things.  Everyone here is going to look at addictions differently.  Because of that, everyone is probably going to see the use of marijuana differently - or alcohol, for that matter.  We know if there is something that is going to be a stumbling block to us, as individuals, we should flee from it. 

Just a thought. 

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I must applaud this poster.... this is the heart of the matter. Marijuana is more addictive and can be more detrimental to those with addictive personalities, this is true as wolf pointed out with many things in life.

As I have said in past threads we should be careful to use our personal convictions as doctrine. Just because something is not acceptable for you, does not make it wrong for everyone.

I personally used to use Marijuana, there was never any addiction, nor did it lead to heavier drugs. ( I know I said I was gonna stay out of htis one )

I will end this by stating what many others have, Marijuana is not something that should be taken lightly, so kids donot go out and think it is ok to use this subtance, it is still illegal and we are commanded to obey the laws of the land.

God Bless,

Dave

Book...

MOvies never give enought detail...

-_________________________________________

Oil or natural Gas heat?

Ok I have been involved in this debate before and donot wish to get my feet too dirty today, but I did want to mention a few things, Wine is biblical times was alcoholic unless it was drank within the first 3 days, otherwise it would start to forment at that point, no refrigeration makes htis inevitable.

Marijuana is not a hallucinigetic, and is also wrongly categorized as a narcotic. You can buy drugs of worse side effects, physical addictions, and worse effects while using them at your local supremarket right there on the shelf.

Now I am going to stop there as I know my views on the rest of htis have been stated previously and can be found by doing a search . otherwise i donot wish to go down that road again, it wasn't pretty the last time.

God Bless,

Dave

Early Christians received "three" sacraments, when coming into the Church.

First was Baptism, second was laying on of hands, known as Confirmation, and third was receiving the Body and Blood of Jesus, in the Eucharist.

Infants were Baptised from the very first Christians on, as shown in the Bible.

"She was baptized, with her household" (Acts 16:15). he was baptized, with all his family" (Acts 16:33). And in his greetings to the Corinthians, Paul recalled that, "I did baptize also the household of Stephanas" (1 Cor. 1:16).

Furthermore, Paul notes that baptism has replaced circumcision (Col. 2:11