Vickilynn

Shalom, Perhaps, perhaps not. They wouldn't necessarily have known His birth date, they weren't around when He was born. Again, James wasn't there at Yeshua's birth. Well, that's your opinion, not G-d's. You can't support that Scripturally, as G-d does not say NOT to mark the date or recognize the date. So, it's your theory, not necessarily the truth. No, again, you are mistaken. We worship, glorify and honor MESSIAH, not pagans. . Actually, it's more insulting for you to continually accuse you brothers and sisters of worshiping pagans when they are worshiping Messiah. It is a judgment you cannot make, yet you continue. Stick to the Scriptures. Look at MY siggy and you'll see MUCH rejoicing at the birth of Messiah. So, to celebrate His incarnation and birth are VERY Scriptural.

Shalom Emily Anne, Good to see you back! I've missed you!

Shalom Blien, No, I cannot agree that Jesus was speaking to Believers. I believe the verses plainly state that He was addressing those who DID NOT KNOW HIM (as in not born-again) and were using His name. No place does it say these people were born-again Believers. In fact, they cannot be, since Jesus said He NEVER knew them. If they had been His, He would know them. The point is, we cannot lose our salvation and we cannot have it taken from us as long as we abide in Him. That is a heart action, not a works action. From the heart that is abiding in Jesus, comes the desire to walk in His ways. Our actions come from our submitted hearts.

Shalom Artsylady, Amen! Great points!!!

Shalom Bib, As a Jew and a born-again Christian, I must agree with you! Amen and amen.

Shalom Blien, Now we get down to the REAL issue. Can one "lose" their salvation? The answer is no. A Believer may give up his/her salvation and choose to turn again to serve sin, but salvation, given as a free gift, cannot be taken from us without our choice. Matthew 7:22-24

Shalom Bib, Exactly!!

Shalom Bib, Excellent points!!!

Shalom Hypathia, ummm, please get your history correct. Messiah's incarnation trumps anything pagan. Think about it! Nope, JESUS is the reason for the season. Just because man perverted it, doesn't maean the celebration of Messiah is wrong. People throw the word "pagan" around like they know what they mean! Ain't nobody worshiping no pagans at my house during Christmas. Nope, the ROOTS are found in Luke 2. Totally Scriptural. And, again, I find it sad that you feel the need to remove Jesus from the celebration and make it "secular": and to you that is better than rejoicing at Messiah's birth. Totally backwards to me, but again, it's your choice.

Shalom Hypathia, That's your choice. But, it's a personal choice, not a Scriptural mandate. No, He most likely was born during the Feast of Tabernacles, in the Fall. However, according to the Scriptural timeline, He was CONCEIVED during the Feast of Dedication (in the Winter), so we are celebrating the INCARNATION of G-d the Son, the Messiah as a human. That is a reason to rejoice!! The Angels rejoiced at His birth, and so should we! Whenever we celebrate it. Again, that's your personal choice. I personally find it sad that you think removing Messiah from Christmas is a good thing and one to be proud of, but again, your choice. I personally choose this approach is more Scriptural: 1 Corinthians 10: 31 So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. LOL! We're celebrating the Messiah, not any man-made tradition. Have you not read Luke 2? There was some heavy-duty rejoicing going on!!

Shalom Patricia, Oh, that's SO funny! That WAS a loud sigh, wasn't it? Exactly, amen! I heard it said that Jesus wants to see our faith and man wants to see our works. Thank you! I think it's an important topic.

Shalom, Exactly. Our righteousness is as filthy rags. Jesus is our righteousness.

Well, it seems like a straightforward "yes" or "no" question... Sometimes I wonder why there are not more Christian Politicians. Shalom Bib, Amen! I'm all for cutting to the chase, ceasing the double-talk and getting to the heart of the issue, which is THIS question in this topic. It's important to be straightforward and not confuse the issues with dancing around it. As the title says, let's just say it! Thanks for replying!

Shalom Hypathia, That is just out and out not true. There is nothing pagan about worshiping the Messiah. The Bible says nothing about not glorifying Messiah at Christmas.

Shalom Hypathia, Excuse me? Please read Biblicist's post with the exact Scriptures. That in no way resembles a Christmas tree except they are both trees! The point of these verses is making an IDOL. No one is making an idol of a Christmas tree. I prefer a more Scriptural approach. We celebrate the rejoice in the INCARNATION of the Messiah and we love having a Christmas tree. There is nothing Scripturally wrong with it and it is an evergreen, symbolizing Messiah giving us eternal life. What a hoot. You can call it what you want, you can celebrate or not celebrate Christmas in any fashion you choose, but you are wrong to accuse people of not being honest, re-writing history, white-washing and all the other accusatory words you use. Here's one: GRACE. BTW, the celebration of the incarnation and birth of the Messiah has nothing to do with anything other than Jesus unless you choose to worship something other than Jesus. Think about it.

Shalom Ovedya, Amen!

Shalom Hypathia, This is from the OP. It will explain why this verse does NOT mean a Christmas tree.

Shalom Suzanne, <sigh> This topic was started because it is the REAL question. The other threads are DIFFERENT topics with different questions and yet you wanted to discuss THIS topic there. It is much more honest and easier for people to follow when we simply are upfront and ask the question at the root. It is very interesting that you refuse to discuss this issue openly but would rather beat around the bush. But, whatever. And no, my motives were good, please refrain from falsely accusing what you do not know. You cannot judge motives, please stop trying.

What I am saying is that a number of Christians are so anti Christmas and Easter to point that we are supposed to not participate in anything as it would be involving Pagan holidays. These people might condsider becoming a Jew as they can then participate in true God given feasts and festivals and can ignore Christmas with a clear mind as there is no obligation to observe Christmas. Shalom Andrew, Sorry, that is not a Scriptural, or edifying response from a Christian. You don't Scripturally tell a Believer to leave the faith just because you don't like their beliefs. And, as I have shown you, your assumption that Messianic Jews do not celebrate Christmas is dead wrong.

Shalom Blien, Thank you. Yes, my intentions were good, not evil, I assure you. I pray that Suzanne and I can finally discuss this important issue without confusion or controversy. That's why this thread is here.

Shalom Blein, How is posting a question to her about her beliefs about salvation "bashing"? We are talking SCRIPTURAL ISSUES. She alluded to her position over and over in other threads, and I'm inviting her to finally get into the discussion she has been asking for. I consider it quite gracious actually. And no, I'm not the least bit ashamed, for my motives are innocent and good, but you wouldn't know that since you cannot read people's hearts. Too many people throw the term "bashing" around when it is nothing of the sort. No one is attacking her character, please show me where I have bashed her character. But you are attacking mine without fact. I'm sorry you're angry, but you are wrong on all accounts. The other topics were not dealing with this issue and this issue would be OFF TOPIC. I asked her repeatedly to open a new one with THIS topic and out of consideration I did it for her and invited her to join me here. The old topics were about other subjects, THIS one is about what we're really discussing. There is no reason to link back to another subject that doesn't apply to this topic. So, before you go accusing people and their motives, please check your facts.

Shalom, Well, ask this question then... Do the Scriptures say that once we are saved (born-again, indwelt by the Holy Spirit), that we must do good works to maintain our salvation and if we don't, we are as lost as if we've never been born-again? This is what some are saying. I, for one, do not see that in the Scriptures. This is what I see: Ephesians 2 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. OK, so now we are saved. It is G-d's free gift. What now? Well, the very next verse says: 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. And Jesus says it plainly: John 14: 15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments. So, there is no doubt that once we are saved, we are to walk in G-d's ways, according to His word and keep His commandments. Are we all on the same page? OK, here is where we have the difference: some people say that if we do NOT do good works, we lose our salvation. I believe the Scriptures say that we are to walk closer daily to Jesus, walking in His ways, as empowered by the Holy Spirit. We are to ABIDE in Him (spirit to Spirit - not works) and as an outflowing of our hearts connected with Him, we will do more and more good works. I do not believe the Scriptures state any place that if we do not do good works, we will lose our salvation.

Shalom Bib, Yeah, I knew Suzanne wasn't here, but there are others that espouse this idea that once you are saved you have to do good works to keep on being saved.