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It seems to me that it is impossible to believe in evolution and at the same time be a disciple of Christ - not the least because Jesus Himself referred to a literal first man and first woman. Evolution proposes an upward progression whereas creation proposes degeneration leading to death, as do all the Bible's teachings on the subject. I'm not looking to argue the science of evolution v creation so much as explore how it is possible for some who call themselves Christians to accept that evolution is compatible with knowing God and Jesus Christ. I find it puzzling..... I also personally believe that until the scourge of evolution is challenged and removed from our lexicon, we cannot, as a wider society, hope to know God. So-called theistic evolutionists must approach life from a totally different perspective than believers in Biblical creation. To put it simplistically, as the human race we are either on our way up or on our way down. We have either fallen from perfection or are progressing towards it. As far as I can tell, there is a diametric opposition between Christianity and evolution. I'd like to hear your thoughts, though, because it all helps in one's witness to those who have never heard that there is any alternative to evolutionary theory. Don't worry about the science - I'm convinced that Biblical creation offers a better scientific evaluation of available evidence than does evolutionary theory. What I'd be interested to discuss is the total opposition (light versus darkness) that seems to me inherent between Creation and Evolution which I perceive to be polar positions. Ruth

Ah, children are an heritage of the LORD, are they not? And blessed is the man who has his quiver full. I was never one to miss out on a blessing so I went for the quiver full. And the Lord has so honoured my smaller than a mustard seed faith. I am now in the privileged position where my post-teen children are clamouring for the Word of God and its anointed exposition. Which is why I recommended these Bible Studies. We offically hold the Bible Study, based on these tapes, once a week but they all try to get sneak previews by "borrowing" a CD so they can listen to it on the way to work or any other excuse. They simply cannot wait for the weekly dose - they just want more! I am so privileged as a less than faithful mum to have my children so thirsty for God's Word..... God is so good...I wish I could tell you how it is to have been less than faithful and yet to see one's children - without my intervention - sing "amazing grace" - completely off their own bat , while I had retired to bed. The song that echoed up the stairs was the best medicine ever offered..hallelujah!

May I recommend to all Christians who would like to give account to others of their faith, the following Bible Studies. I first came across them about 20 yrs ago and was so blessed that I not only purchased the whole series for myself, I also purchased a second series for a lending library for the local church. Latterly, and having done much travelling, I dumped my tapes as they were showing signs of mould and I guessed they would be unplayable. Over the 20 years that these tapes were hidden in a cupboard, I never once took one out for the benefit of any of my 9 children. How remiss of me! I had received the benefit but was so selfish as to not pass on the benefit to my children. And, if I am honest, I would have to admit that I was more troubled by worldy things than by the things of God. I just sat on them and when they looked mouldy, I dumped them. What a FOOL! Having re-ordered just the first series of Basic Bible Studies at quite a large cost, and having been once again reminded of how annointed this Bible teacher was ( he is now with the Lord) I realised what I had so stupidly dumped and how costly would be the replacement. Nevertheless, I am introducing these Bible Studies to my children and their newly converted partners and they have all been so blessed that I feel I should draw them to your attention. I could kick myself for having been so remiss and so stupid as to have not introduced them before. Nevertheless, God is good, and having been reminded of them, I am now able to introduce my children to some Bible Study that is annointed of the Holy Spirit. I just have to share them with my spiritual family, too. The Bible Studies can be obtained via the following link. http://www.ccftapes.co.uk/bbs_net.htm In Jesus, Ruth

Yes, I'd like to describe it - mainly because I have just begun to re-use the gift of tongues after 25 yrs of putting it on hold. To start at the beginning.... I received the gift of tongues when, following acceptance of Jesus as Saviour, I prayed in front of my mother for my two year old daughter. I kind of knew what I wanted to pray but halfway through the Spirit took over and I found myself praying in tongues. After that I prayed frequently in tongues - in 2 different languages, as well, or so it sounded to me. I could (and still can) switch between them at will. However, about 5 years down the road I began to feel uncomfortable and wonder whether I was just kidding myself. So my praying and speaking in tongues just fizzled away. Needless to say, it was a time when I was not attending any Christian Fellowship or church. But recently I have started again - and it is exactly as though I had never stopped. I have an emotional sense of what I am saying but I do not know in my mind exactly what it is. I know when I am praising, intercessing, confessing, for instance, but I cannot literally translate the words. For me, speaking/praying in tongues is like bypassing the inevitable ignorance of a mind stuck in time and ignorance, and communicating in the Spirit in a way that transcends time and the limitations of my mind and knowledge. I know if I pray in tongues for a person that I will be praying for what that person REALLY needs and not what I may think they need. For that reason, praying in tongues was, and still is, a blessed relief inasmuch as one has an inner assurance that one is giving voice to the Holy Spirit within. Praise Jesus, Ruth

What I would like to know is from whence comes the compulsion to have a tattoo or a piercing? Is it not just fashion? One of my boys has married a woman who has a small tattoo on her shoulder - he sees it as a blemish (although he does not hold it against her, and he is currently not walking in the Spirit) but, believe me, when she was walking down the aisle in her backless wedding dress, so did I. Sorry, but that's how it appeared to me - a blemish on beautiful clear skin. My eighteen year old daughter also views piercings and tattoos with disdain. However, my 23 yr old daughter has a belly button piercing *edit content* I just don't understand why anyone would want to deface themself, but maybe that's just me. Ruth

Rest on what you have done - train up a child in the way he should go on and he will not depart from it - and confess what you have not done. Thereafter, leave it to the Lord Jesus. Ruth

THank you so much! With hindsight I can see that above all, when I posted my problem, I was looking for reassurance from the wider body of Christ that someone else has firsthand experience of similar manifestations of evil - it is so easy to feel alone and then to begin to condemn onseself. Especially as the fellowship we attend is very new and and consists largely of very new Christians who are not yet well versed in Scripture. Your sharing of your experience with your daughters helped me to realise that even the children of loving Christian parents can experience demonic oppression, and that it is not just me, my sinfulness, my wrong choices that have caused this to befall my daughter. How easy it is to fall into Satan's trap of guilt then condemnation! Even though I know full well that there is no condmenation for those who are in Christ Jesus. My daughter K will be attending personal ministry from two or three elders over the next few weeks. I was pleased to hear from her that they didn't concentrate on a defeated enemy but ministered to her, her position in Christ. We are overcomers not overcome! But sometimes we need a spiritual revelation of the truth of God's Word, and that, I believe, is what will set her free - the truth. In Christ Jesus, Ruth

Yes, I understand. These strongholds sometimes have to be broken one by one. Not everyone has a one-off deliverance. Sometimes it takes perseverance, even prayer and fasting. My daughter is being ministered to by the leader of the Christian Fellowship we attend and he is leading her towards standing on Christ's promises as well as renouncing the sins that have given the devil a foothold. I still feel that my position as a mother is to come against these spirits as and when the manifest but that it the ministry of an annointed elder/teacher who will bring her to deliverance. Anyuway, now for some good news: two of my children (aged 18 and 19) toaday publically committed their lives to the Lord. I do not think that there is any greater belssing that God can bestow on a mother than to witness their salvation. They will both be baptised soon. I eagerly await the day when all of my nine children are safely in the fold. ..............Several hours alter ...we have been praising the Lord...have to go...no time bit didn't want to leave this message unposted. God is so good...what greater blessing for a mother on mother's day than to see two of her children publicly commit their lives to the Lord. Ruth

Yep, I know exactly what you mean. But did your daugter ever have to contend with a naked husband on all fours, growling and threatening violence, and then, in between recommending to his wife that he didn't know what was overtaking him request, please remove the children from the house because I don't know what violence I am capable of. And then, when visited by a man of God, talked in the plural - WE have done...said... Sorry, but it seems to me that most of you have the theory but I don't feel yet that I have met anyone who has had to confront the reality. Could be just me...I'm very sheltered and this kind of practical evidence of demons is way way out of my court. All I know is what I have seen and experienced. And I feel that I am limited - could be because I am a woman or could be because of my own sinfulness - even though I am clothed in the righteousness of Christ. I am experiencing the effects of principalites and powers warring over my daughter's spirit. And she is as sane as the next person until she gets one of these visitations at which piont she is totally terrified...and they only occur three or four times in a year and especially when she makes a decision to follow the Lord more closely. In Christ Jesus Ruth

Thank you and all others who have contributed. I do know the Rock on which I stand, and I have been a Christian for long enough to be able to use the Sword of the Spirit - many many Bible verses are written in my heart and available to me in time of need. BUT, and I am sorry if this undoes any preconceptions, I am still left feeling that the best I can do is ward off these evil manifestations for the time being, in the name of Jesus, yet not actually deliver her. I was kind of hoping that I would meet someone who has undergone a similar attack of the enemy because, believe me, when it happens in practice it is a lot different from the theory. Ruth

I am still in the early stages of understanding demonic oppression. My daughter, K, actually sees demons in form - either amorphous or individualised, dependeing on how they choose to present themselves to her at any given moment. She is usually aware of an oncoming attack by a sense of oppression folowed by a physical feeling of weight on her chest. Then they appear - as a mass but also capable of individualising themselves and coming up right into her face. When she woke me the other night she was shaking all over as well as having a pulse in her cheekbone ( I had my hands around her face at one point) that was pulsing like a butterfly wing but far more strongly. She was terrified. I mean, really, really, really, terrified. I did not have the strength to call these demons by name and command them to go - she was too terrified and I was just trying to relieve the oppression of the moment - long term delivery didn't even get a look in because the short term necessity was too great. I can't tell you how frightening this experience was - it is the third occasion when I have had to stand up against oppressive demons who are harrassing my daughter, but this last time, they were more fierce than ever - I think because she had made a deliberate choice to really go forward with the Lord and had joined this new fellowship. It's difficult to expalin, but the experience is terrifying for her and frightening for me - these spirits are nasty pieces of work and do not want to give up easily. Initially, when one prays in the name of the Lord Jesus they become angry to the extent that my daughter even begs me to stop using the name of Jesus. And when I persist, they still try to attaack her, but eventually will go, only sometines only to recede and reappear in say 5 minutes, so I have to keep praying with her and reading the Bible and belaying the Sword of the Spirit. Thing is, I've never known this kind of thing before, never even thought that such realistic manifestations were possible but now, face to face, I feel very inadequate and quite scared. That's why I feel I/we need the ministry of a man. If these demons were ever called out I believe they could be very violent. Ruth Sister~Just a little advice from someone who does deliverance. If you close the doors to their right to be there they leave with almost no manifestation.. Do you want the information to close the doors or not?? It wont take a man to bring her deliverance.. only knowledge and the name of Jesus.. Blessings, Karen I want only the Lord Jesus. I am wary of information that could be gnosticism. Sorry, I do not wish to impugn you but I do not know you and can only trust in the Lord Jesus. I have to admit that I am a little wary of anyone who says that they do deliverance. Only Jesus does deliverance in my understanding. I believe that I am in the position of the disciples who returned to the Lord Jesus and admitted that there were some demons that they could not cast out. I have already "closed the doors" as you say, yet they have returned. I do not believe in magic formulae and I think that any formulaic approach could tend in that direction. I do believe that sometimes male authority is required - I think it's to do with the order that God has put in the world, i.e. that the man is the spiritual head of the woman. I'm only praying my way to understanding so please forgive me if I have barked up the wrong tree, so to speak. I think that in my daughter's case it WILL take a man to minister to her the deliverance of Jesus Christ, but I don't fully know why although I could make a guess. In short, I do not lack information that will close the doors - it is a matter of authority. If It had been purely information I would have been able by now to minister efffectively to my daughter. I am well versed in Scripture, baptised in the Spirit, assured of my status in Christ Jesus. my present feeling is that I do not have, or cannot exercise, the authority required to deliver her. So it is not a lack of knowledge , it is either a lack of authority or a lack of faith to exercise that authority. Either way, there can be no formulaic short-cuts. Blessings in Christ Ruth

I am still in the early stages of understanding demonic oppression. My daughter, K, actually sees demons in form - either amorphous or individualised, dependeing on how they choose to present themselves to her at any given moment. She is usually aware of an oncoming attack by a sense of oppression folowed by a physical feeling of weight on her chest. Then they appear - as a mass but also capable of individualising themselves and coming up right into her face. When she woke me the other night she was shaking all over as well as having a pulse in her cheekbone ( I had my hands around her face at one point) that was pulsing like a butterfly wing but far more strongly. She was terrified. I mean, really, really, really, terrified. I did not have the strength to call these demons by name and command them to go - she was too terrified and I was just trying to relieve the oppression of the moment - long term delivery didn't even get a look in because the short term necessity was too great. I can't tell you how frightening this experience was - it is the third occasion when I have had to stand up against oppressive demons who are harrassing my daughter, but this last time, they were more fierce than ever - I think because she had made a deliberate choice to really go forward with the Lord and had joined this new fellowship. It's difficult to expalin, but the experience is terrifying for her and frightening for me - these spirits are nasty pieces of work and do not want to give up easily. Initially, when one prays in the name of the Lord Jesus they become angry to the extent that my daughter even begs me to stop using the name of Jesus. And when I persist, they still try to attaack her, but eventually will go, only sometines only to recede and reappear in say 5 minutes, so I have to keep praying with her and reading the Bible and belaying the Sword of the Spirit. Thing is, I've never known this kind of thing before, never even thought that such realistic manifestations were possible but now, face to face, I feel very inadequate and quite scared. That's why I feel I/we need the ministry of a man. If these demons were ever called out I believe they could be very violent. Ruth

These are powerful spirits, ones that command her to rip off her clothes so that I had to physically hold her tight to me. I don't want to give more power to the enemy than he deserves - he is a beaten foe - but even the disciples recognised that there were some spirits they couldn't cast out and came back to Jesus for further advice. I just don't think that I can deliver her from the oppression although I lnow that in the name of Jesus I can keep them at bay ... until the next time. It was instructive to me that my very new-to-the-faith- son who took even what little faith he had and prayed against the demons afflicting his sister, actually had an effect. I don't know....I am truly out of my depths. I come from a very sheltered Christian background and this kind of stuff just doesn't occur ....or does it?

Thank you so much for your response and for moving this topic to a more appropriate forum. Thank you, too, for your offer to continue this discussion via PM and your reassurance that I am not the only person who has had to deal with demonic activity in one's children. I think that it may be necessary at some point to revert to PM's because the background I have to describe is so bad that one really doesn't want to air it in public. On the other hand, in a general sense, I believe I should continue this in public, not the least because I had never thought such manifestations possible and maybe there are others like me who meed to be enlightened concerning the reality of demonic attacks. My background is Christian evangelical for many centuries - believing parents, grandparents, great-grandparents etc for several hundred years. Until I married an unbeliever who represented himself quite dishonestly. Now, in my children, I see the sins , especially of sexual immorality, being visited on my children. But in a very spiritual stronghold sense. I didn't know until 5 years after we were marrried and with 2 children, that my husband had been in a longstanding incestuous relationship...and more. Now, one daughter, K, is terribly troubled. She was raped when she was 20 yrs old by a man who used a date rape drug but she was to ashamed to report it to the police and didn't even tell me until 3 years later. She has terrible demonic visitations and, she tells me, had had them even before the rape incident. The night before last she woke me just after midnight - and that with difficulty because the demons were suppressing her - to tell me that "they" were back again. She SEES these demons and trembles and shakes in fear. They enter her head so that she even sees me through their eyes and cannot bear to look at me so I hold her to my breast and bury her head whil telling them in the name of Jesus to depart - but I have to use force because she pulls back. When I call upon the name of the Lord Jesus the demons become angry until, when I persist, either vanish in flames or go, so she tells me. This is a very brief account - I don't want to go into too much detail except to say that these eveil spirits are so real that the last time they visted her, I feared for her safety and had to call on on one my sons who is by no means grounded in the faith but has a knowledge of Christ and a desire for Jesus, but still retains doubts and has not yet really committed his life to the Lord, to join me in praying with my daughter, his sister, and commanding the evil spirits to leave, in the name of Jesus. It was only when his voice was added to mine that they eventually left her in peace. I am using the Sword of the Spirit and the Helmet of Salvation, but every time my daughter, K, tries to get closer to the Lord, the demonic attacks increase, and I don't think that on my own I can manage them - I feel that I need a man's authority. But my husband cannot help. She iwill be going for ministry to the elder of the new fellowship we have joined, but I just need reassurance as to how to handle any more late night visitations. My daughter, K, has been baptised in water and believes that she has received the Holy Spirit, but she has not experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit in the same way as I did, for instance, where I was totally suffused with the love of God and spoke in tongues and had an insatiable appetite for the Word of God. She believes oh so firmly in her head but she has never had that experience of knowing Jesus that I have had. That is not to diminsh her salvation, but I wonder whether she needs something more so as to withstand these terrible attacks of the enemy. I had never before thought of evil spirits being as real as my daughter describes them. I think my background is very sheltered. But having watched her torment and fear when she is undergoing an attack, I have no doubt that they are real. BTW, she has had problems with seeing in mirrors, too. I just feel very out of my depths. Nothing like this every happened in my church-three-times-on-a-Sunday Christian childhood, and I feel very helpless in the face of the enemy's very real visitations. In Christ Jesus, Ruth

Hello, and blessings in our Lord Jesus Christ, I am new to this board and have joined because I am seeking advice. I have not been in a church fellowship for a long time, for many reasons, but have recently joined a new Fellowship of mostly young Christians. They are lovely and wonderful and welcoming. Meanwhile, some urgent needs within my family have become apparent and I am looking for some very sound advice on a very thorny question - at least, it is to me. I asked Jesus to be my Saviour when I was 6 years old and continued in The Way until I was 15, at which point I backslid and didn't come back to the Lord until I was 25, During that time I made some life-changing decisions with consequences that I am still living with, even though I know I am forgiven for the wrong choices I made when I was out of fellowship. I am now 50 yrs ++ with nine children and an unbelieving husband. Or, at least, he says he wants to believe but his behaviour and actions deny his protestations. But that's not my immediate problem. When I chose to be unequally yoked with an unbeliever, I didn't know the half of what I was letting myself and my children in for. I believe that God has led me to honour my marriage vows for better or worse, and I've had to accept the worst. But I can see signs of "the sins of the fathers".. and demonic oppression - serious demonic oppression, in them - not just a vague headache kind of stuff. Visible (to the oppressed) evil spirits that can cause intense fear and trembling. Spirits that I am called to pray against. I do not think that this topic really belongs in the welcome forum, nor even in the outer courts, as I am not a seeker, I KNOW Jesus is THE way, THE truth, THE life, and have been baptised in water and the Spirit. But I cannot access the "inner court" where such topics would be better discussed unless I have ten posts to my name, and I am disinclined to make small talk so as to achieve a ten-post ticket to the "inner forum". I really would welcome the Godly advice of longstanding believers. I recognise that as a woman my ministry is limited - not only in theory, but in practice, especially when one is dealing with evil spirits. If a moderator could place this in an appropriate forum, I would be more than grateful and would then feel more able to explain the specific circulmstances that have lead me to seek help from the wider Body of Christ.