Yahweh is salvation

No, that i not what the Bible says. The Bibles does not say that God is a savior through Jesus. It says Jesus is Savior For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. (Luke 2:11) God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. (Acts 5:31) Of this man's offspring God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus, as he promised. (Acts 13:23) For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. (Ephesians 5:23) and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, (2 Timothy 1:10) Those are just a few places where Jesus, Himself is called "Savior." You call on us to read our Bibles, but it is clear that you don't really know what the Bible says. That is not why they claimed they wanted to stone Him. They were not arguing with Jesus over whether He was the Messiah. His Messiahship was not hte topic under discussion and does not appear in the text. Their claim was that Jesus was making Himself equal to God and they proclaimed that as their grounds for wanting to stone Him. Jesus is our Saviour, he is the head of the church, but he is those thinghs because God ( Father ) send him to be those things. We are all reading the same Bible, but we all dont have the same view. Jesus wanted us to beleive that he is our Saviour and nothing more. And that in it self is a beautifull thing. Praised be our Lord Jesus Christ! God bless you.

So, are you claiming the Scriptures say there are two Gods? So are you there is another Lord than God? No, I'm saying that those scriptures are cofusing.

Moses and Jesus ( God is the saviour trough them). So then you are denying Jesus as Lord (see Philippians 2:5-11) and as your Savior (Eph 5:23 - For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.)? Tit 2:13 - looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, What the Father does, he does it trough me. God sent his Son to do his Wil So, are you saying you and God are one as well? ( Philippians 2.5-10). When I read this , to me that means that the Father is God and the Son is God, and there is two of them. ( Philippians 2.11) And when I read this, to me it means that Father is God and that Jesus Christ is our Lord. Again, I don't accept the Holy Trinity explanation.

Trinity, Godhead (all church words) trying to explain something that is not. But how do you answer the challenge? Moses and Jesus were both given the power to do what they did and neither one of them is God. I fail to see how the response answers the question. Tell us - is Jesus your Savior? Moses and Jesus ( God is the saviour trough them). Moses is never called the Messiah, never claims to be the Messiah and couldn't and didn't die for your sins. He didn't, but he saved the Jews from the slavery because it was God's will. That's the only thing that I was trying to say.

They didn't beleive that he was the messiah. Thats why they wanted to stone him. But what did Jesus mean by "The Father and I are one"? What the Father does, he does it trough me. God sent his Son to do his Will.

Trinity, Godhead (all church words) trying to explain something that is not. But how do you answer the challenge? Moses and Jesus were both given the power to do what they did and neither one of them is God. I fail to see how the response answers the question. Tell us - is Jesus your Savior? Moses and Jesus ( God is the saviour trough them).

The Jews didn't beleive that he was sent by God then and they still don't beleive. I am not following your train of thought. What does the belief of anyone have to do with what Jesus said? Jesus said: "The Father and I are one." What does "one" mean? They didn't beleive that he was the messiah. Thats why they wanted to stone him.

But what do you make of the first part: "The Father and I are one"? If Jesus is not God, then what do you believe Jesus to mean? The Jews didn't beleive that he was sent by God then and they still don't beleive. Really, then who made up the first Christians if the Jews didn't believe????? Jews did, the ones that beleived. But those same ones that didn't beleive, were caled Jews then and still are the Jews now.

Trinity, Godhead (all church words) trying to explain something that is not. But how doyou answer the challenge? Moses and Jesus were both given the power to do what they did and neither one of them is God.

But what do you make of the first part: "The Father and I are one"? If Jesus is not God, then what do you believe Jesus to mean? The Jews didn't beleive that he was sent by God then and they still don't beleive.

Because as you can readily see, there is rank in Godhead. More than that, what you need to understand is that Jesus was showing us how to live. Jesus demonstrated that it was possible to live in complete dependence on the Father in the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus, while being God, wilingly gave up several Divine priviledges and took on humanity with its limitations to show that even as limited as we are, we can still live by faith in our Heavenly Father. Jesus was demonstrating the Will of the Father. Had Jesus not emptied Himself and become a servant, He would not have been much of an example to us. Jesus allowed Himself to be tempted and even allowed Himself to die. Jesus lived in complete dependence on His Father, not because Jesus could not have acted on His own, but in addition to being our example, Jesus had a mission to complete and He had to be willing to take upon Himself the full price for sin. He had to be willing bear full cup of God's wrath and justice against sin. A man could not have bore the price for sin. God Himself (who is the only savior in the world according to Isaiah) had to save man from Sin. God said in Isaiah 43:11, "I am the Lord and beside me there is no Savior. So how can Jesus and not be God, if God says that He and He alone is the Savior? If Jesus is not God, then He cannot be the Savior. That is something that only belongs to God. Consider also tha the apostle Peter declared in Acts, that there no other Name under heaven save the Name of Jesus whereby men must be saved. Jesus is the only Savior, God is the only Savior, therefore, Jesus is God. You may not care for the Trinity, but the concept is in the Bible, even if the word "trinity" is not. Trinity, Godhead (all church words) trying to explain something that is not.

Persons of Godhead. Who came up with that one ?

I realy have the problem with the whole Trinity explanation. And it is an explanation that the church gives. If Jesus is God, then why does God have to pray to anyone and ask them to be spared. " Father, if it is possible, don't let this happen to me! Father, you can do anything. Don't make me suffer by having me drink from this cup. But do what you want, and not what I want." (Mark 14.35-36 )

You are confusing issues. Saying that Jesus is God is not the same as saying that Jesus is the Father. Jesus is God and the Father is God. Jesus did not juxtapose Himself with God. He juxtaposed Himself with the Father. You are, as I said confusing essence with relationship. Jesus relationally speaking is the Son of God. That does not mean that Jesus is not God in essence and being. Your position rests on the premise that only the Father can God, and that is a premise that is contradicted numerous times in the text of Scripture. Are you saying that there is two of them (two Gods) ? Please answer.

I agree.

Ok. so he did say Son of God ( equal to God ). If that means that he is God, then why does he pray to God (him self ) ? Why does he say in ( Mark 14.62 ) " Soon you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right side of God All-Poverfull, and coming with the clouds of heaven." Is he sitting beside himself ? I think that a lot of people have ben tought by the church and others who Jesus is, so they listen to them and not what the Bible (Jesus) is telling them. All what the church should be doing is , to give us the gospel , just like Jesus's apostles did and not be telling us, this means this and that means that. What the Bible is saying, thats for us (individualy) to find out. No one can be our teacher but Jesus.

John 10:30

My Brothers and Sisters, this is how I understand the Bible. We are all beleivers, and the reason why we call ourselves beleivers is because we beleive in God. If we said that we know God, we would call ourselves the know-ers, I guess . Anyway, this is what I beleive that the Jesus is saying to us. I BELEIVE that Jesus is the Son of God when I read this: Then a voice from heaven said, "This is my own dear Son, and I am pleased with him". ( Matthew 3.17 ) Not everyone who calls me their Lord will get into the kingdom of heaven. Only the ones who obey my Father in heaven will get in. ( matthew 7.21 ) If you tell others that you belong to me, I will tell my Father in heaven that you are my followers. ( Matthew 10.32 ) No one knows the day or hour. The angels in heaven don't know, and the Son himself doesn't know. Only the Father knows. ( Matthew 24.36 ) Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane. When they got there, he told them,"Sit here while I go over there and pray". ( Matthew 26.36 ) Then he knelt down on the ground and prayed, "Father, if it is possible, don't let this happen to me! Father, you can do anything. Don't make me suffer by having me drink from this cup. But do what you want, and not what I want". I could go on and on. Jesus doesn't call him self Son of God, we call him that because he keeps saying "Father" and "My Father. I listen to the Bible (new testament), and in that I listen to my Lord Jesus Christ. If I am wrong, and if I am that lost sheep, then I hope that my shepherd finds me soon. God bless you all.

Rebmilc. I entered this discussion on the basis of wanting to establish whether participants believed that salvation (and the righteousness I have in Christ) hinges on an intellectual assent to Jesus being God or whether it is the result of faith (which is the gift of God). Plainly there are some who believe that unless I accept that Jesus is God I am not born of God's spirit. So here is my dilemma. If I accepted something that denies the righteousness that I have in Christ then I would walk away from the walk of faith that I dwell in. And even though you believe something different I can never deny that you are made righteous by your faith (if indeed you walk by faith). You see I haven't chosen not to see what you believe I am blind to. I see something else - and that something else has truly shown me the difference between an intellectual assent of who some believe Christ to be . . . and who I know Him to be since I abide in Him. May I ask you something. If God gave you a glimpse of something - something that perhaps answered a question which you had long pondered but couldn't reconcile intellectually, would you deny the validity just because you didn't understand it. Does everything you stand on - your knowledge of God and His Christ have to able to be comprehended by the intellect to be accepted? Would you have to have all the answers to ALL the questions before you accept what God would show you or require of you? I guess it's like God saying, 'Here is the creek - Get in.' I think to myself, 'Well I haven't got a paddle but God says so, so He will provide.' You know I would rather be up the creek without a paddle than in the wrong creek. I like that last statement Mutzrein . God bless you.

If you notice, Mutzrein, the weakness in your position is that you rest entirely on emotion. You cannot develop a biblical defense for your position. Your position relies ignoring plain statements in the Bible. You simply ignore direct questions put to you and so far, you have not responded to the testimonies of both Jesus and God the Father where both testify that Jesus is God. The Deity of Jesus is not a periphreal, nonessential issue like the rapture or footwashing or something of that nature. It is not some ambiguous doctrine about which the Bible is not clear. There are simply some doctrines that cannot be compromised that cannot be put to the side in the name of "unity" or "fellowship." The Deity of Christ is a biblical doctrine that is taught from beginning to the end of the Bible, and your rejection of it is simply a matter of both rebellion and intellectual suicide. The Deity of Jesus is what sets Christianity apart from religions like Buddhism and Islam. Jesus' death, burial and resurrection are predicated on His Deity, and without the Deity of Jesus, we have no guarantee that Jesus lived a sinless life. The Bible teaches that Jesus became flesh. That means that prior to his birth, He was something else. It means that Jesus consciously decided to take on human flesh. It was an act of His Will which means that Jesus pre-existed His earthly ministry,which speaks to His Deity. Jesus was not made flesh. He became flesh on His own. Yes he was something else. He was always the son of God, thats why he said that he was before all others(people). God bless you.

If you notice, Mutzrein, the weakness in your position is that you rest entirely on emotion. You cannot develop a biblical defense for your position. Your position relies ignoring plain statements in the Bible. You simply ignore direct questions put to you and so far, you have not responded to the testimonies of both Jesus and God the Father where both testify that Jesus is God. The Deity of Jesus is not a periphreal, nonessential issue like the rapture or footwashing or something of that nature. It is not some ambiguous doctrine about which the Bible is not clear. There are simply some doctrines that cannot be compromised that cannot be put to the side in the name of "unity" or "fellowship." The Deity of Christ is a biblical doctrine that is taught from beginning to the end of the Bible, and your rejection of it is simply a matter of both rebellion and intellectual suicide. The Deity of Jesus is what sets Christianity apart from religions like Buddhism and Islam. Jesus' death, burial and resurrection are predicated on His Deity, and without the Deity of Jesus, we have no guarantee that Jesus lived a sinless life. The Bible teaches that Jesus became flesh. That means that prior to his birth, He was something else. It means that Jesus consciously decided to take on human flesh. It was an act of His Will which means that Jesus pre-existed His earthly ministry,which speaks to His Deity. Jesus was not made flesh. He became flesh on His own. My sheep know my voice, and I know them. They follow me, and I give them eternal life, so that they will never be lost. No one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father gave them to me, and he is greater than all others. No one can snatch them from his hands, and I am one with the Father.( John 10.27-30 ) After that they wanted to stone him for claiming that he is God, and he was certanly not saying that. Only reason that they wanted to stone him was because they missunderstud him, the same thing that you are doing now(missunderstanding). God bless you.

Sorry, but you are wrong. Saying that Jesus is God is not the same as saying that Jesus is the Father. I have never said that Jesus and the Father are one and the same. Once again, you are confusing the issues of Deity and relationship as your above quote once again, proves. By the way, The verse from John that says that Jesus is the Word of God, says that the Word IS God.

That is not reason He used it. Actually Jesus called Himself "THE Son of man." That word "the" is significant because it it refers to a Messianic prophecy about "The Son of Man" out of Daniel: I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought Him near before Him. And there was given Him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve Him: His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His kingdom that which shall not be destroyed (Daniel 7:13-14) Jesus was referring to the prophecy in Daniel when He applied it to Himself, and his contemporaries would have picked up on that particularly the more learned ones. "The Son of Man" was a title for the Messiah, and by calling Himself "The Son of Man" He was declaring Himself to be the Messiah. He was assiging the above prophecy to Himself. Even if one claims it is nothing more than a reference to His humanity, that does not mean Jesus is not God. Jesus is both fully God and fully man according to the Bible. According to the Bible? I say according to man's interpretation of the bible. Yahweh is salvation I like the tenor of your posts. Thanx Mutzrein, thats is what I was trying to say. When you read the Bible its you and Jesus and nobody else. Again thank you and God bless you my brother.

That is not reason He used it. Actually Jesus called Himself "THE Son of man." That word "the" is significant because it it refers to a Messianic prophecy about "The Son of Man" out of Daniel: I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought Him near before Him. And there was given Him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve Him: His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His kingdom that which shall not be destroyed (Daniel 7:13-14) Jesus was referring to the prophecy in Daniel when He applied it to Himself, and his contemporaries would have picked up on that particularly the more learned ones. "The Son of Man" was a title for the Messiah, and by calling Himself "The Son of Man" He was declaring Himself to be the Messiah. He was assiging the above prophecy to Himself. Even if one claims it is nothing more than a reference to His humanity, that does not mean Jesus is not God. Jesus is both fully God and fully man according to the Bible. Ok, ok. Then explain to me what does the " lamb of God " mean to you. And how do you understand the ( Revelation 1.1 ). This is what God showed to Jesus Christ, so that he could tell his servants what must happen soon.

You're right my sister. Something like that is realy shamefull, not only in church but outside it to. God bless you. It does go both ways and I have seen many woman flocking around elligible bachelors as well. One thing too which may be a bit different is Some people are attracted to the Holy Spirit within you and not understand the attraction. A Good friend of mine got married , Rabbi Jonathan but prior to that although living in a different state I heard about all the woman who were hoping for him...I would just chuckle and keep Him in prayer.... It is also not good for a woman to have a revealing or short dress sitting in the front. Although My pastor was not a lustful type but one never knows what may go through his mind when the Holy Spirit stops preaching. I agree.....women need to be respectful of men, too. This is imperative....both women and men need to be respectful of each other, especially in the Lord's house. The main point I was trying to get across, though, was directed more towards consideration and love towards each other, by making a conscious effort not to do anything which may offend. Condemnation was not my motive!!!! I just wasn't sure how many people here realize this...that when a person comes out of an immoral lifestyle, especially one of promiscuity, that there are many emotional wounds which the Lord has to heal, and an admiring glance (no matter how innocent) could really rub a person the wrong way. Like I said, we are all human. If a person from the opposite sex finds another person in church attractive, it is natural for one's eyes to drift, or to want to stare. There is nothing wrong with attraction....but if you don't know the person, or anything about him/her, try not to do anything that may be construed as offensive. That was the main point I was trying to get across, that's all. I hope I didn't sound condemning....I don't condemn ANYONE, but I also expect consideration from my fellow believers. No it didn't and I agree with you my brother. God bless you.