carlos123

If I could throw in a negative suggestion...don't even think of coming to San Diego or even California for that matter. I just got to San Diego from Alberta, Canada and may be heading back. The weather is great down here and the people are nice but that's about it. Other than that housing is insanely expensive and jobs are very, very hard to come by. Government bereucrats run everything and are almost dictatorial in how they deal with the public. California taxes are high and they have rules for everything down here not to mention that the state is broke. It's like a police state down here with the police chopper coming overhead every few nights to see who is doing what. I think your best bet might be Nevada or Texas. Florida is way too muggy (which I personally don't mind but for you it may be tough) and it's full of creepy crawly things. Carlos

That alone is cause for great concern Shiloh! If we are talking about the Gospel message that is. I believe an essential part of the Gospel message IS the need to realize that becoming a Christian involves becoming a disciple. Making a choice to follow in the footsteps of Jesus before a holy God. Trusting the blood of Christ such that we turn our lives over to the Father and choose to live as a disciple of Jesus Christ. The booklet does not cover that at all. At least not adequately enough to help a person understand what they are getting into becoming a Christian. The booklet has a feel good Gospel presentation. God has a wonderful plan for your life, accept Jesus into your heart, let Him be boss, say this little prayer, and be saved! The idea of Him being boss does imply some measure of Lordship but it is as deficient in laying out what that means as the idea that a nice, older gentleman holding out a job that will be a wonderful part of my life is reflective of Gods' offer of salvation! God is not a nice, older gentleman wanting to be our boss. He is a holy God who has power to cast into hell! He is King and Almighty God and we, as unbelievers, are in absolute rebellion to Him. We must lay down our arms and surrender our wills. Cease from our rebellion and draw near to Him through the forgiveness offered through the blood of Jesus Christ. THAT Gospel won't neccessarily win many converts compared to nice booklets like the 4 Spiritual Laws but it will result in more genuine conversions than what we have today. A Church absolutely full of people who have not even gotten off first base in understanding what it means to become a Christian. Even worse who are living under the deception that they can be Christians while continuing to live for themselves doing what they essentially want to do in life. With the nice, older gentleman known as God giving them presents and grace to get that better house, car, and job so that they can pursue the American dream...only with God on their side this time (or at least according to their thinking). THAT Gospel is a bloody affair. Where we surrender ourselves and allow God to crucify that which we want out of life that He might use us to accomplish His purposes. To rely on people using a feel good about becoming a Christian booklet to adequately present God in His awesome majesty and holiness to a rebel in need of repentance is like relying on a person from timbuktoo to explain what the U.S. Constitution means to someone interested in becoming a U.S. citizen using a 4 page simple booklet as a guide. Worse yet people who are not surrendered to God themselves use the booklet to present a feel good Gospel all the more to those in need of salvation. If we know God...one can explain the Gospel need to surrender to a rebel just fine. Even without any booklet. New Testament Christians did not even have a printing press! But they did have surrender and shared the Gospel of cross bearing quite well as a reflection of what they had done in their own lives. And they turned the world upside down despite their "lack". Carlos PS. I acknowledge that there are those who share the Gospel using the booklet and actually see people saved through it and for that I am thankful. But the exceptions do not prove the rule so to speak.

Hey...no problem tryingtounderstand. I understand. Great to see that you are still around and even greater to hear that the Lord might have provided some answers to you. Can't wait to hear what you've learned. I'll see you on the other thread when you can join us there. Carlos

Hi tryingtounderstand, Hopefully you are still around and everything is okay. I haven't seen you over at the new thread I started. I wanted to pass along a couple of thoughts to you, assuming you even see this post and did not decide to stop coming here or something. I read a couple of things this morning that led me to remember our conversation here and that I thought might be appropriate for you to consider... Here's the first thing....

That's very gracious of you to take the time to number and respond to the points raised by tryingtounderstand OneLight! Thanks. Carlos

Hi tryingtounderstand, There are a number of things in what you said above tryingtounderstand that are well...a bit confusing...perhaps even contradictory. You say "I believe in Christ" but also "just maybe I can be saved through all the mess" and "you must accept him and believe but there are many scriptures that make it seem like you need to do more than that.". So I think the first thing that needs to be determined is whether or not you are truly a Christian tryingtounderstand. I do not mean to discount anything you said but these areas of confusion or seeming contradiction need to be settled or worked through before we can effectively go on to the rest. One other thing tryingtounderstand...it will take continuing courage for you to expose what you think and your concerns so openly as you have before everyone here. I respect the courage you have shown. Truly. But if you ever get to the point where you want a break from public input on what you say...please know that you can DM me or others here to discuss some aspects of your concerns in a more private way...okay? If I may ask a couple of questions of you based on what you said above? What do you think the word "believe" as in "I believe in Christ" means? Can anyone just believe and that's it...they are a Christian? What do you think Jesus did on the cross? You will probably say that He died for our sins. If that is so...what does that mean to you? What does it mean that He died for our sins. What difference does that make for you, for me, and anyone else? Practically I mean. What does the concept that Jesus died for our sins mean practically in our lives? Thanks. Carlos

Here's the new thread I started tryingtounderstand...look forward to seeing you there. http://www.worthychristianforums.com/hell-...on-t102386.html Carlos

Just an introductory note about this thread.... It is meant to allow me and others to continue a discussion on becoming a Christian that started up in another thread. A thread which had to do with a potentiall track writing ministry (http://www.worthychristianforums.com/Overc...op-t102014.html). So without further ado....here is where we left off in that thread. A fellow member, tryingtounderstand (hi there tryingtounderstand ), said this... I will post my response to what he said later today after I have prayed and thought about what he said above some. If anybody has any input...by all means, speak up Carlos

Oh...one other thing tryingtounderstand..... The thread I start may get moved, by virtue of what we are discussing, to a place on here called the Seekers forum. There are some pluses to having such a thread moved to the Seekers forum. Among them, no post will be allowed unless it is first reviewed by a Moderator. That can be a good thing in that people with weird ideas or beliefs or those who might respond to you in a less than loving way...won't be able to steer you wrong. But for me personally...such a thing would cause me to not want to post since I would always be wondering if the time I take to post would be wasted in that a Moderator might not let through what I say however loving or true what I say might be. It's just a concern of mine and I do not mean to say that Moderators here are in the habit of denying good posts. So...if the thread I start ends up in the Seekers area such that my posts will first be reviewed I will most likely contact you through DM so that we can continue conversing without having my posts go through a delaying review process before they are allowed into the thread if that's okay with you. Regardless whether you and I continue our conversation or not...please do stick around as I am sure that others here can also help you with your answers and concerns. Carlos

Good morning to you tryingtounderstand! I really didn't want to start another thread as I got lots of things going on that tie up my time elsewhere on the Internet but I will start a new thread so that we can discuss this more thoroughly. It's important. Please know that your questions and concerns are no different than the kind of questions and concerns I had before I became a Christian. There are answers to many. But also you need to understand that not all your questions and concerns will be answered to your satisfaction. After 30 years of being a Christian myself...I still got questions and concerns! But I also know that the Lord is real and that I have forgiveness and am headed for the promised land . And a lot of times, though not always (as the recent bout of frustration I have felt in the last few days can testify to), I experience a joy and peace in my heart that is very real, and not something I make up to soothe myself, as a result of having real relationship with Him. Anyway I will start another thread and post a link to it here if you want to follow me to it. Thanks for your openess. I appreciate that. Carlos

Whew! (Wiping sweat from my brow) Thanks...I'll go back to being a bull in china closet then You are so right about us all being works in progress. I've got to be more careful about thinking that I am a better work in process than the rest of my brothers and sisters in Christ. I was so humbled this morning before the Lord to realize that I am just a flub. A floppy Christian who flops around like a fish out of water when compared to the kind of Christian I should be. I am my worst enemy in the Presence of God in that I so often get in the way of what He might want to do through me. My temptation when my eyes are opened, yet once again to the deceitful nature of the sin within me, is to withdraw and go hide in a corner somewhere. But I know that the Lord would have me stand strong in His grace and keep moving forward on those things which He has seemingly laid on my heart to do. Carlos

Howdy tryingtounderstand, Don't know about what everyone else believes but yes, I believe in a literal hell. A hell that I wish to encourage others to avoid through the blood of Christ. But it's not just about avoiding hell tryingtounderstand. There is more to becoming a Christian than just trying to avoid an eternal hell. God loves us and has our best interests at heart for one. He is not out to rip us off or make us miserable. All the more reason to discuss what the Gospel is and how it should be presented in a discussion of potentially writing tracks together. Perhaps it would be best if you started a seperate thread where we could discuss what you brought up more fully than in this one. Don't know. Just a thought to consider. Or you can DM me anytime. Carlos PS. If you want to discuss this here on this thread more that's fine too. Perhaps that is a way in which we can indirectly discuss what the Gospel is though such a discussion might take up a lot of posts before it is concluded.

Believer1997, I just now noticed that you are a member of the fairer gender And here I thought I was talking to a man all along I shall endeavour to be...well...less like a bull in a China closet and more gentle in the future . Carlos

There are a number of things that need to be discussed regarding what I have proposed here. Among other things the following would be good to discuss I think... 1. What is the Gospel (a foundational thing if we are going to write tracks together ). 2. How are tracks to be written (i.e. collectively or by one author subject to revision by others) 3. Where are the tracks to be housed and how are they to be made available to the Body? 4. How are we to effectively discuss this? Do we continue discussing it here at Worthy, elsewhere? There are many other issues that will need to be discussed. But if the Lord is in this He will give us the patience and motivation to get through such discussions to the desired end. That the lost might have a greater opportunity to hear the Gospel from us who hand out such tracks and the Lord might make of us better Christians for it. I am not sure that a discussion of this would fit into Worthy's forum structure because a lot of threads would have to be started on a whole lot of topics. Also...I want more freedom to use resources that are not appropriate to use here. For example I might want to point to a YouTube video of a sermon on what the Gospel is as a subject of discussion. Rather than laying it out myself in a post. That type of thing (links to YouTube videos are not allowed here). So I personally prefer discussing this elsewhere but I am certainly open to continuing here. There are to be sure some advantages to keeping this discussion here. Among them is the wider audience that is present here such that others in the Body might more readily see this and might be moved to join up with us in doing this. Regardless of how the discussion goes here...for various reasons I want to eventually have this ministry idea tied to a web site external to Worthy which would neccesitate moving it elsewhere at some point. Anyway...those are just some thoughts off the top of my head. Anybody got any thoughts on any of the above? Especially how and/or where to best continue this discussion? Thanks. Carlos

I need to confess something here to clear the air and get things right as we continue to discuss this. I have not been operating out of Christ's peace in my heart. Rather I have been operating out of frustration. I won't go into the details of that frustration as it would serve no purpose to do so here. But suffice it to say that my heart has not been right. The idea of a track ministry as I have briefly outlined here is a good one I think. It is something that the Lord might want us to do but I have to make sure I am operating from a heart filled with God's peace and not frustration. I appreciate the various corrections I have received here both in public and in private DM's. God IS using the Body in the way it was intended with respect to bringing me much needed correction! And that is a wonderful thing! I may need correction in the future and aside from saying the above I just want to encourage anyone, and I mean anyone, who thinks I am operating in a less than godly way in what I say to feel free to either speak up publicly or send me some delicious correction privately. If your correction is of God...I believe it will get through to me though you may have to throw in a little patience in with your correction until the Lord convicts me of the truth of what you may be sharing with me. Carlos

Agreed. Thanks for your prayers, patience, and correction Carlos

Hi there artsylady! First and foremost I want this to be a ministry of the Body so please...if anyone has suggestion or ideas...pipe up. My take on this artsylady is that we could offer both the option to pay for tracks such that they are delivered complete, ready to use AND allow them to be printed out freely. In other words I just don't think it good to limit their use by requiring that one's pay for them if that makes sense. I like your idea of a focus group Carlos

Did you stop and consider the possibility that I might be meeting resistance because...well...maybe because what I am proposing might be greatly used by the Lord such that Satan doesn't want it to begin at all. Just saying that might be another possibility. Resistance may be futile against the Borg on Star Trek but I will continue pursuing what the Lord seems to be laying on my heart to do, no matter what resistance I meet . Carlos

Oops. Sorry, just noticed this now. I just said that to avoid the usual Christian debating that goes on. And because I don't neccessarily feel much at liberty to discuss some things openly like possibly creating a forum to go along with our track creation as a tool of follow up. Something that might in the long run compete with Worthy Forum. Some forums get real touchy when such a possibility is raised. I don't know how this one would react to that idea. But if you want to continue discussing on this thread...that's fine too. Might be better actually in that others in the Body might be able to give us direction, encouragement, or even good advice while "watching" our discussion. Carlos

Drawing isn't neccessary. A few weeks ago some little ol lady handed me a track and did so to many others waiting for a trolley. I stopped and read parts of the track and then observed what people did with the track after the lady left. Many folded it and put it into their pockets. Some outright read it while waiting for the trolley. Imagine that! Sowing seeds that might produce fruit. One of the problems with many tracks is that they have no easy follow up attached to them. By adding a 1-800 number and web site address people with questions will be more inclined to contact us such that we can follow up with them. Another thing that needs to be discussed is what to do with those who might become Christians through such a "ministry". While I am not entirely opposed to funneling them into existing organized church structures I have some ideas about how to deal with them in a way that may allow them to more easily grow to maturity in Christ than to just funnel them into the pattern of church that may maintain immaturity by having people going and sitting every Sunday and sometimes doing little else. I am absolutely opposed to the organized, corporate church and think God has something better in mind. That may or may not impact what we do in track creation. But we need to discuss that too. What to do with any fruit that the Lord blesses us with. Perhaps there are attitudes in me that need to change. I am open to that. I am open to anything and everything as long as it in line with biblical principles and righteous living. Carlos

That's wonderful ArtsyLady! Truly. Well...if are game to create tracks and to do so together here is some of what I propose. First and foremost we need to discuss the Gospel. What it is. So that we are on the same level playing field with respect to the foundational belief that is neccessary to become a Christian. There is just way too many differences of opinon on what it means to be a Christian floating around to do otherwise. Secondly we need to figure out how to write tracks practically. Setting up a wiki sounds like the best way. And I think there the best way would be for one of us to write up a track and then have others review it, suggest changes here and there, perhaps proofread it, rewrite a paragraph, start a discussion on the tracks content, whatever the need seems to be. Along with praying over the track of course Third...we need to set up a web site (or perhaps this could be done through the wiki...don't know) whereby members of the Body can get the tracks for free. That is to download them and print them out themselves. We can also make them available for sale from the web site as a convenience but at no time will anyone be denied the opportunity to print them out directly and use them that way. The goal is not to make money but to get the Gospel out and to encourage each other to do that in part by distributing tracks. I can provide a 1-800 number that can be used on the tracks to respond to inquiries from those that read them and have questions. Perhaps a web site can also be built as a focul point for those wanting follow up of some sort. How does that sound so far? Carlos

Well....I appreciate that you can't imagine why but it's really rather simple. How about...I for one not having the money to spend on buying pre-made tracks from sites that won't give them to you or make them available for printing unless you pays some money to get them? For another how about...me thinking that I can write a better track than many I have seen? How about...me thinking that a better track can be written not only by me but by various members of the Body of Christ working together to produce them? It is certainly reasonable to assume that I have reasons for what I am wanting to do. Given that I am a reasonable person...most times. I have listed some of my reasons above. And I certainly do not expect you to fly out and join me in San Diego . I am talking about collaborating over the Internet on writing tracks together. Relatively easy to do using wiki or other online software. I am talking about sharing with each other how the Lord uses our track distribution to encourage each other. I am frustrated...yes. I come on here asking if anyone might want to join me in writing tracks to get the Gospel out more and I am met with questions about my motives, suggestions about how I might want to do something else, and otherwise. All I wanted was a simple yes or no regarding what I asked. Either a yes...I am interested let's talk or a no..I am not. As for meeting resistance...well...that's the nature of walking with God. Nothing new there at all. Every person who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus is going to meet resistance. Granted that my personality or outspokeness or frankness might cause some of that but I also wonder at the so-called resistance that I seem to be getting here at the mere mention of wanting to create tracks, hand them out freely to all, and get them out more as a way of spreading the Gospel. I ask myself...what in the world is going on here? What's with this place? I mean it would have been grand if someone had said something like..."Swell idea Carlos. I wish you well though I am not interested in doing that with you"...or..."That's great Carlos. I wish you well.". Instead I got what I got. I don't know Believer1997...I just can't wrap my head around it. I haven't gotten the response I got here elsewhere among Christians. Generally speaking Christians are far more supportive of what I initiate to ask about elsewhere than at least on this thread. Just weird. I'll go back to my little corner of the world now.... Carlos

Howdy Believer1997. Yes the site looks real good. They've been doing what they have been doing since something like 1927. It better look good by now . Yes I have GIMP (a Linux alternative to Photoshop). Yes...I can print my own tracks. Yes...I can write my own tracks. And yes...I can read the Bible by myself and feed my mouth by myself and worship by myself and let's see....pray by myself and do any number of other things. By myself. All well and good but the Lord created the Body to work together. So....I am looking for brothers and sisters in the Body who might be willing to join me in creating tracks freely, to give away freely, to use freely such that we might be able to encourage each other by what the Lord does through us...as we join together to get His Word out more. You game for that? Anybody? That's all I am asking. Forgive me but I am not interested in discussing my motives, receiving advice about how I can do other than what He is laying on my heart to do, dissecting whether tracks are efficient to use, why or why not I want to use what already exists, etc. I just want to know if anyone wants to join me in creating tracks together and to freely distribute them and make them available. That's all I started this thread for. I asked somewhere else a while back if there were any Christians willing to join me in creating free music for the Body at no cost. Made available to the Body freely without concern for making money. Same thing. Freely we have been given. Freely give. That sort of thing. I guess no one here is willing to join me in creating tracks so I think this thread is more or less done at this point. Unless anyone has any questions about how such a thing might work in case I would be happy to continue discussing. But as much as I appreciate the link to a tract site, the Lord having shown me where I was being judgmental (thank you!), and other such things....I just want to know if anyone else from this forum has it on their heart to create tracks with me. That's the topic. That's all. Thanks. Carlos

Thanks for the link Nathele. Appreciate it. Looks like some good stuff. Even though I have something a bit different in mind. My desire is to create tracks with other Christians in the Body and to make those tracts available for free at no charge. Where one's can download the tracks off the internet and print them out themselves. As many as they want. Also...to create the tracks in a sort of open source collaboration way. Where a number would work together to produce whatever the Lord leads us to produce. This track thing is just one of several things I hope to be working on. Another one that I am spening a lot of time on is creating a new type of Christian forum that is not at present available anywhere on the Internet. Anyway thanks again but I will continue waiting on the Lord to lead me to some that might want to work together on what is on my heart to do. If it is His will to do it. Carlos

Hmmm...sorry Believer1997. I get so confused about who is who sometimes. I am in contact with so many over the Internet that I start getting confused in my rush to respond to all. It's like I am on the edge of not being able to physically and practically respond in an adequate way to everyone I might want to respond to. Reading over what you highlighted I believe you are correct to some degree in what I said. That it was judgemental in a way that does not please God. I do sincerly and honestly apologize for my judgementalism in what I said. It's that old me popping out again. No excuse. I need to be much more careful in my use of the word "most" and instead start using the word "some" much more often. More importantly I need to change my inner perspective on "most" and start seeing things from the perspective of "some" more. To be sure there are some things that I have said that apply to "most" but I need to be very careful that I don't step on brothers and sisters in Christ who are truly doing what the Lord would have them do to whatever degree they know. Yes...they might be able to do things better just as I can but that does not give me the right to slam them or otherwise cast suspicious doubt on what they are doing in good conscience before the Lord. Hmmm....... Thank God for correction through the Body!! Do you realize that I could attend church building services for years and never even come close to receiving this type of correction?? What does that say about the practice of Sunday church going? Just something to ponder further. Thanks Believer1997...whatever your real name is! My apologies to anyone else I have mixed up...name wise. Carlos