carlos123

Or maybe start something new perhaps? . I have intended for some time to hand out flyers, get some Christians together, and start reading the Word to see what God might do with us. Things keep poping up to sidetrack me from that. Not the least of which is the fact that I will only be around for another month or two in Edmonton. Maybe I could be like Paul and start little groups (dare I call them churches) in every city I visit eh? Would'nt that be something? Carlos PS. Oh yeah when I tried to go back to the ten year church I was in I couldn't. Why? Well...you see...they didn't believe in the gifts of the Spirit for today so what was I supposed to do? Not let God gift me with whatever He wanted me to operate in? Not encourage others to believe God to gift them with things that were viewed as having ceased? I've even had a whole group of Christians praying fervently and uncessingly over me to get me to speak in tongues. Encouraging me to open my mouth and force myself to start mouthing gibberish as a prelude to real tongues. Why did I let them do that? Because they wanted to do it so bad that I didn't have the heart to tell them no. The result? Well I didn't start speaking in tongues that day and well....I didn't feel like I fit into their fellowship either. In my heart of hearts I think the church of today, in general, is one big joke. An object of ridicule to the lost not because of Christ but because many are acting ridiculous. There are some that seem to be right on! Unfortunately I cannot join them because...well...they are somewhere else in the world . And I do not wish to knock what God Himself does in churches but what passes for God in many churches IS a joke and a disgrace to His name! Edited to tone down a statement I made....

Hi Zhavonay. Thanks for your input. Can you do me a favor and clarify what it is that you are doubting? And what kind of place can be created on the Internet? Not sure what, in what I said, you are referring to. Can you also please not quote my entire post at length but rather only the section you are commenting on? I'm not going to get upset or anything if you don't do this but it would help to more clearly follow this thread if one's did not quote a long post of mine in it's entirety. Thanks. Carlos Edited to make the quote appear correctly.

Valid question Shiloh and one I am happy to answer. Perhaps the Lord might show me something here that might lead me to solve the dilemna I often find myself in that generally makes it very difficult for me to fit into your average church. Incidentally bro can you do me a favor and not quote the entire length of something I write in your response. It adds to the length of your post significantly without enhancing what you say . Let's see now....what is stopping me from finding a good church home (I assume you are referring to locally). First a bit of background if I might lest anyone think I am incapable of and have a hang up about being involved in a local church. I was in a church a number of years ago for close to ten years. Very actively involved. Very committed. I left that church only when a very strong discipleship movement came into the church where every single member had to pick a person to disciple them and every member had to disciple someone. Being that I was not exactly the strongest and best discipling material around, like the last member being picked in a line up for a basketball team, I was left on the sidelines and ended up not feeling loved. The man who led me to Christ decided to "disciple" someone else and I felt terribly rejected. So I left the church eventually, in part because I saw the danger of this discipling program as the church implemented it, but mostly because I felt unloved. And no I don't consider mysefl to have been abused by the church I was in per se. The Lord used that experience to draw me closer to Himself eventually, once I came back to Him, and to strengthen me from the tendency to exalt man and react to how man treated me instead of to God with my eyes focused on Him. These days I look to the Word and God alone for what I am to believe and for what I am to do. The problem is that in almost every church I have been in the tradition of the church has collided head first with what I read in the Word. Let me give you a few examples.... At one church the pastor began to allow his wife to lead. I talked to him about that and he in fact agreed with me that it wasn't scriptural but he did not want to cause a ruckus by confronting his very strong willed wife. Exalting his relationship with his wife over the what the Word said to do. I couldn't support him mas such and left the church rather than stay and cause problems by my stand on what the Word said. Another one....a brother slandered me and I mean slandered me big time in a church. It was clear. There was no question about the slandering going on whatsoever. Me and the head pastor went and talked to this brother. Everyone agreed what he was doing was not right. The brother was not repentant. What did the pastor do? Nothing! He buckled under the need to discipline this brother and decided to not do anything at all! I could not remain in that church either. One more. Good doctrine. Nice people. No instrumental music allowed. Well I did not feel that I could be winsome or that I could join with others to freely worship God using instrumental music so what was I supposed to do? Rather than stay and cause a ruckus I left. Do you get the drift? Church traditions everywherer, disobedience to clear verses laid out in the Word, you name it. Because I am looking to the Word and not to church traditions or otherwise I end up in my desire to practice what the Word says butting heads with leadership who are more interested in following church tradition, being disobedient, or what have you. And no this is not a case of my having issues with authority or not wanting to be under submission or other such nonsense. I believe in submission to authority. I believe in having authorties. But as I have said there is a general lack of looking to the Word in many churches and I am so sick and tired of bumping up against the stuff I have that I have decided to look for something different. I don't have time in life to keep church hopping. Hoping and praying that the next one will be different. Leader of another church I was in for years was immoral with women he was counseling. Another leader got on my case because God began a move through me, in what I can only say was a miraculous way, to get the Christians in an apartment complex to join together as brothers and sisters in Christ and start eating together 2-3 times a week, reaching out the lost, and so forth. Because...well...it wasn't under authority in terms of being under an established church structure. Never mind that God was moving big time through those of us involved. Never mind that the Lord was making His living Presence known through us. it wasn't...welll...you know, under a covering of authority (another church tradition doctrine if you will that has been virtually elevated to Scriptures in Christian circles) so therefore I was being rebellious if I did not force everyone to come under one church!! Never mind that we were a church by virtue of being the called of God to act as His Body in our apartment complex. That is why I think most churches are a joke. I hate to say that. But that's been my experience of church. I could write a book on how modern church as we know it obstructs the simplicity of following the Lord through His Word. I could go on to talk of how the way pastors are today apointed is nothing like the New Testament example, how feminism has infiltrated the church in subtle but profound ways to strip the men of being men, and lots of other stuff. Better to go off to try and start something new than continue to butt against the way church is. I desire to get with brothers and sisters in Christ who are open to doing whatever the Lord wants. However different. However untraditional. Who will look to the Word alone with me and seek the Lord with me to let Him live through us. And no (I feel I must always say these no's, because so often Christians will get it in their heads that this or that is my problem, that I definitely have a problem, anything and everything but that that the actual problem is that the chruch of today in general is not allowing God to be God in our midst) Christians don't have to believe everything I believe to be in fellowship with me. I hope I did not fail to address any other presuppositions that one's might have of what my "problem" is based on what I have shared Does that answer your question? Feel free to ask me whatever you want Shiloh. Carlos Edited to add the folllowing.... Oh yeah I forgot about the chruch that only wanted me to use the King James Bible. Only that version! Anything other than that was out of bounds! I think there was one too that did not want me to baptize converts in the river but only inside the baptistry in the front of the church too. Like I said I could write a book Who knows maybe I will.....

Hiya Gerioke. Yes that is a common view of church. Given that I desire to know God's view on this issue however can you please point me to a verse or verses that would support the idea that church is where we go to be fed? And that a mission field is where we feed others? Just a couple of additional questions if I might..... So in saying that we "go" to church are you saying that church is a place? Is that what the Bible says? Is there a particular place that defines where we are to be fed? What kind of feeding do you believe constitutes church? Is it being fed from the Word? Being fed through worship? Eating physcial food together? Being fed through interaction with other Christians? What specifically are we being fed? Is this feeding the feeding of our spirit? If so, is a feeding of our spiirt possible over the Internet? And if so can we not have church on the Internet? Who are we feeding on the mission field? Unbelievers? What are we feeding them? Can you expand and clarify a bit Gerioke? Thanks. Carlos

If an online church is not possible woe is me! . I will shortly be travelling all over between different states and unless we are prepared to say that church is only that which one finds on a Sunday morning with a preacher telling me what he thinks God is saying such that I can be involved in "church" as such then I will be unchurched and unable to experience church at all. May I ask was Paul less involved in church because he was not physically present, oftentimes in prison, and needed to often write to the Corinthians, Philippians, Ephesians, and many others and receive letters from them? If that was church then is it not likewise church to communicate back and forth over the Internet, by letter, by phone, or otherwise. What defines a church? Biblically that is. Is church just face to face such that if it is not done that way it is no church? Someone on this thread brought up that where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name there Jesus also is. Is that a church? Must we gather physically to be a church? Can those in solitary confinement be involved in a church? Why did Paul speak in 1 Corinthians as though he was there with the church when he was in fact just there in spirit? Look at these verses.... Seems to me that to be one in the spirit with our brothers and sisters in Christ one does not HAVE to be present physically and face to face in order to be involved in church. At least that is how I read these verses. Does anyone read them any differently? Don't look at the idea of church through our traditional eyes. Let's look at church through the Lord's eyes and call a church what He calls a church. A few more thoughts if I might.... We all become members of Christ's Body when we are born again in spirit. If we say that the Body of Christ is the church then we are all already members of a body. Namely His Body. So as Christians none of us is truly churchless though we might not experience much of the Body of Christ locally if we are not involved in a local body of believers. But apart from what God has made us in our spirits, new creatures in Christ, we are nothing and nothing spiritually good can come from us in our flesh. When we gather together with other believers it is our spirits that being one with Christ individually can enable us to collectively be one in spirit with one another. That is why I belive that Paul was able to include himself with the Corinthians in the verses I quoted above and act in his spirit together with theirs to do what needed to be done. The Spirit working through our spirits is what counts. The flesh profits for nothing. In view of all that I think it is definitely possible to experience church (or the Body of Christ) through means and in ways that does not involve physical, face to face contact. So for example we can experience Jesus in His Body by connecting with other believers, spirit to spiirit, over the phone, on the Internet, through a written letter (as Paul wrote), face to face, whatever. It really does not matter what form our spiritual communion with each other and with Christ takes as long as it is Christ working in us to enable us to act as His Body on Earth. Does that make sense? I mean I could be off in some of the particulars but that's how I see it right now. Do you all see why I cannot just sit here and say to myself that those on this forum or indeed anywhere else on the Internet gathering in His Name are NOT a church? To say such a thing would go contrary to my understanding of what church is. Biblically speaking. According to God...not according to how we on this or any other forum might view ourselves...are we a church? Online but nevertheless a church? If not why not? From God's view of things I mean. If those of us gathered together in His Name to do His work here or anywhere else online are not a church then how about 2 of us getting together to go bowling and enjoy each other's company? How about 10 of us? Would we still be a church, albeit a church going bowling? If not were Jesus and his disciples a church while they were eating? Or where they only a church when Jesus was expounding on His Word? And if we would be a church getting together to go bowling or to eat then why is it not likewise true that we are a church gathering to chat online? Is the determination of us being a church just a matter of us getting together physically where we are a church if we are going bowling but not a church if we are online together? If we come to believe that church is not that which happens traditionally in a church building on Sunday's (or Saturday's as the case may be) then when does a church cease to a be a church outside Sunday gatherings? I have what I believe are answers to all these questions in my own heart and in my reading of the Scriptures but I am curious as to what everyone else thinks and would love to hear your all's thoughts in response to these questions. Again please stick to what is written in the Word and try to set aside traditional views of church in answer to my questions for those of you that would care to give answers to any of them. I appreciate very much being able to discuss this openly here and am glad that those in leadership here have not booted me off for daring to imply or suggest through this discussion, as I do now after thinking about it some, that we are indeed a church. All views that we are a mission field notwithstanding. I am NOT bashing this forum or focusing on this forum in particular. It's not about just this forum. The answer to any of these questions applies to all Christian gatherings online. I want to discuss this whole concept of church vs mission field and to come to a better understanding of how the Lord views us. Regardless of how we might otherwise view ourselves. Carlos

Key words there are "seem to indicate" bro. I would prefer that people ask me about what I seem to indicate rather than assuming that what I seem to indicate is actually what I am saying. If that makes sense. So I will ask myself . Have I come to a place of thinking that this forum should viiew itself as a church? After this thread and thinking through what has been said I would have to say yes. But only from the standpoint that it already IS a church biblically speaking in the definition of what a church is. Do I insist that the forum views itself that way? Nope! Very unlikely that it will happen and I am not interested in forcing what I believe God's view of what this forum is down people's throats. Better to try and start something new or go elsewhere than try that. I have tried countless times in other places and other settings to encourage change in light of what God says but have long ago given up on any hope of that being a very effective thing. It's been my experience that it just doesn't work. Again my intention was not to encourage change here. The important issue in all this is NOT what you and I might view this or that forum as but rather how God views us and to come in line with God's view of us. Carlos

You are absolutely correct Shiloh. I stand corrected I did not choose my words carefully and can see based on your quotes how what I said strongly implied and frankly outright said that I was advocating a Christian only, private place. Sorry bro. My initial post was said mostly as an expression of frustration and I did not think well about the implicatations of what I was saying. I can see that a Christian only fellowship is not good and indeed would not be possible to have. There will always be false brethren somewhere in the mix. Carlos

You bet I have. I have spent countless hours scouring the Internet for what I am looking for to no avail nebula. That is why I am even thinking of starting an online church myself. There are lots and lots of links that show up under a search for "online church". Have you ever looked at them in detail? Most are extensions of existing churches based in buildings with all the traditional trappings of traditional churches and their views brought online. Many are denominationally oriented. As such it would be difficult under those biases to discuss the plain meaning of things in the Word that goes against the grain of such. Trust me I have tried. Most Christians give lip service to keeping their eyes on God and His Word when in fact they practice keeping their eyes on leaders and denominations. Christians who keep their eyes on God and the Word in practice don't seem to fit too well into traditional churches who more often than not seem more interested in not rocking the boat of the status quo. As far as I know there is no place online where Christians can go to discuss anything and everything of the Lord, including the structure of the discussion board itself , in a protected environment and in a way that sin in the midst of such a place is dealt with. Applying church principals to online discussion. I should state that I am thankful for being able to discuss anything and everything here, even how this forum is run, but at the same time I have felt somewhat ganged up on and a need to very carefully choose my words lest I be seen to be divisive or undermining the leadership here. Ideally I don't want leadership structures, the way things are done, etc. to interfere with a plain and honest look at what the Word says. Even if it calls into question such structures or the way things are done. There are lots and lots of places online where Christians argue. I have been on Christian mailing lists where it seemed that lofty theological thoughts were more important than simply trusting Christ through what it says at face value. This particular mailing lisit had a moderator who believed homosexuality was not a sin. Yet such a person was allowed to expound on such a view without church discipline being called into play. I could not support such a list by continuing a member. I was at another forum where unbelievers, mockers, agnostics, and the like downright persecuted the Christians who came on the site such that they were allowed to do that as though they controlled the forum. All in the interests of winning them to Christ! So yeah I've searched. Nothing there of the kind of place that I am looking for and that is on my heart to be involved in. If I could find such a place I would not bother to think and pray about starting one mysellf. It's a lot of work and time wise it's difficult for me to do that at this point in time. But the need is there I think and I am willing and certainly I have the computer skills to basically create whatever it is possible to create online or through email communications. So much of the Church these days is so incredibly full of traditions that are exalted above what the Word says. Many of us don't see that very readily and think that our traditions are based on the Word when in fact many of them are not. I want to get away from Church traditions and the status quo of how things have always been done, in our lifetime at least, and get back to the simplicity of following the Lord through His Word at face value. Openly and honestly and without structural or other bias. Carlos

Hi George, Thanks for your input George. I am aware of Worthy being much more than the forum so for sure there is lots going on. Lots of GREAT stuff. Overall I think the mods are doing a great job within the agreed upon parameters for how to run this forum. And yes sometimes posts are skipped. That can't be helped given the size of the forum. I understand that. So none of what I have shared in this thread is meant to discount any of that George. Just so you and every one else knows . Given that you have not had a chance and really probably don't even have the time to spare to read the entire thread I can see why you might think I am advocating a church of ONLY Christians but to clarify I am not advocating such. Only that I would like to fellowship somewhere online that sees itself as a church (in the spirit of 2 or 3 gathered in my name) and applies principals of church to it's fellowship as such. That's all. I originally started this thread asking for input on where I might be able to go to find something closer to what I was looking for and well...here we are....as Dave said....discussing this issue . That's just by way of background about where I was coming from. My intention was never to start in on an all out discussion of this topic . Thanks again for what you do on this forum George and for making it available. I am very thankful for the opportunity to discuss things from a Christ centered point of view with others anywhere I can. Carlos

Excellent article at NRO you all on the underlying and terrifying basis under which Terri's death is considered justifieid in many circles who view her as being a non-person. http://www.nationalreview.com/smithw/smith200503290755.asp Carlos

I'll second that!! AMEN!

Thanks bro. I was just very surprised at what seemed to be totally unfair characterizations of where I am coming from and could not understand how you, beign a godly man, could do that. But I suppose that you cannot rightly be expected to remember everything about everybody and the full depth of how much or how little you have communicated in a topic with everyone . I do not remember us having a good discussion on this bro. Honest to God. You may be confusing me with someone else or perhaps I am not remembering what I did. I will look through my message store to see if I am mistaken. It's possible that I just don't remember. And me you There's nothing wrong with being blunt bro when it's called for. I can see why from your perspective it's called for and I appreciate your willingness to speak what you see as truth into my life. Truly I do. But can you not see that saying "...unless you get the answer you want..." characterizes me as being obstinate and unyielding, unteachable and irreconcialable and close to being a trouble maker? Do you not see how that could be an unfair characterization? I mean let's assume for a moment that we did discuss this at length in the past. But that I completely and totally have forgotten such a thing. Would it not be better to say something like..."Carlos it seems to me that we discussed this in the past and I don't understand why you are bringing it up again?" rather than "...unless you get the answer you want...."? Can you not see how that is uneccessarily confrontative and a statement of fact as to where I am coming from without giving me the benefit of the doubt? This is right in line with why I just don't get why I am so incredibly misunderstood in Christian circles when I bring this topic up. I have never, ever, said or even meant to imply that the solution is to run a private club that would all but ignore the needs of those in the world who need the love of Christ. May I ask why you thought this link would help me bro? Is it that you think I am like one of the people George was speaking about? Feel free to tell me in public bro. I am not here to refuse God's input into my life. If there is any application to me personally in what George said I will be the first to admit it and ask for prayer. I am nothing on my own and really have nothing to defend about myself bro. I have sinned in the past and continue to fall in different areas. I have needs just like anybody else and if you or anybody else sees a need in my life that I may not be seeing it would be an act of love for you to tell me about it. Whether publicly or privately I don't rightly care. To some degree the more public any corrrection of me is the more opportunity God has to shed light on my needs so please feel free to share fully what is on your heart as to why the link above was something you believed would really help me. I am interested in truth bro and more specifically from God's view. About me, about an online cfhurch, or any other issue. I just don't want to be mischaracterized, misunderstood, or to miss out on God's best for me and those around me. Carlos

I get so misunderstood when I bring up these kinds of issues that sometimes I honestly wonder if I am just a glutton for punishment. People think I am wanting to run the boards myself, that I am wanting to cause problems, that my motives are bad, that I want to be in a church that is perfect, and you name it. It really astounds me to the point that I either don't know how to speak the English language or else ..... who knows.. Am I trying to characterize this as a church Shiiloh? Do I want to view it as such? I do NOT want to characterize or view this forum as anything other than what it is!! It would be utterly silly for me to sit here and try to make something of this forum that it is not. That is the whole reason I asked for input on where I could find what I am looking for. Precisely because this foum (and indeed no forum that I have found) is it. The problem for me in seeing this forum and sometimes thinking that church priinciples would be good to apply has NOT been because I have wanted it to be something different than what it is but rather that it HAS seemed to me to be different at times than what it apparently is. A mission field. I hear George and others post long and well to the general forum membership about how the Lord wants us to do this or that. Things that only Christians could rightly and fully apply. I have not seen that as very indicative of this being a mission field. Speaking of viewing this forum as what it truly is, I was thinking about this last night and although I said and still believe that there is nothing inherently wrong or sinful per se with viewing it as Mission Field, I ask myself how it is that a group of Christians meeting anywhere to do God's work and to act as His Body, whether online or offline, can see themselves as anything less than what they truly are? A church! We may view ourselves on this forum as being on a mission field. But in God's eyes we as Christians are a church wherever we meet. A church is not a place. It is a gathering of Christians as the Body of Christ to do what Christ would have done. That is what genuinely and sincerely confuses me. It seems that many consider a church to only be something that happens in a traditional building on Sunday. I just don't get it. Honestly. It's almost as if the church online is caught between being a church and being a mission field and not quite sure which principals of being a church apply. When someone like me brings up some church principals that would solve some problems, people get on my case because it's not a church I am told. Then others might suggest that in order to become more winsome to the lost as a mission field we might as well get rid of the "Christian" label and make this a fun forum to pull in more unbelievers with less overt Bible anything....one might be told "No we are here to uphold Christ!" like a church would. The net result being that the church online is hamstrung by a lack of being able or seeing ourselves as being able to apply church principals to handle problems that arise and as far as a mission field is concerned the majority of people who end up showing up are those who have a spiritual interest in Christian something. Leaving the rest of the world out there in the wild and wooly world of the Internet at large to fend for themselves spiritually. Anyone who knows anything about the unbelieving world knows that most unbelievers will not grace the doors of a church building coming in to be saved. We must go to them. But we do not see ourselves as a church here so the one's that come here are seen to be coming to a Mission Field such that they can be won by the multitude of Christians who are here like a church. Can yoiu see how confusing this gets? I know this forum does not view itself as a church Shiloh. Wayne has shared this much with me before. And I am NOT wanting it to change it's view or otherwise accomodate my desires for an online church. That is NOT my intention bro. At the same time though I think what is important is to ask ourselves how God views this forum. Is it a church or a mission field by Him? How does He view us as Christians getting together to do His work? I ask myself that and I cannot come to any other conclusion, based on the Biblcial definition of what a church is, than to the conclusion that we are an online church viewing itself as a mission field. Again I am NOT, NOT, NOT demanding or making an official suggestion or anything else that this forum should change. I am simply stating what I believe to be the truth in a desire to view things from God's perspective. There is no question that face to face is best Shiloh. I am in complete agreement with you on that one. My question is what are people to do if for one reason or another they are not able to find such face to face fellowship. I see a need there that is not being met but could be by an online church. I'll second these statements too bro. Worthy Boards is without a doubt one of the better if not the best Christian forum around. If online churches become a crutch and a substitute for face to face churches I completely agree with you bro. 100&. But there are some, like myself, who cannot readily fit into a traditional church or who can't physicall be involved in one or that for other reasons cannot be in one. For them I think an online church would not only be healthy but a need that is not presently being met. Nothing in the Scriptures that I know of bro suggests that a church MUST be face to face. Indeed the very definition of what a church is from God's view makes a church possible online, in prison, indeed anywhere and in very way that Christians can get together to build each other up and act as a Body of Christ. I have never said otherwise bro. That is not an issue. And I appreciate greatly that this does happen. Worthy Boards would not be what it is today if the leaders here did not operate in that way. Carlos

And to be sure I have appreciated input from both you and Wayne though I would add bro that you and I have hardly touched this subject at all in our communications. I think you wrote me all of 3 paragraphs one time on this (if that) and I think I wrote you asking if we could discuss this more in connection with a thread you intervened on (I can look up the communcations or you can in my message store if you want me to). So I don't think we have communicated back and forth at least between you and me the way your phrase implies bro. And I have never in any way made suggestions to leadership of this forum regarding this issue as one would if suggesting that things be done differently. My bringing this issue up has always been in connection with experiencding something on a thread not as an initiation on my part to suggest something to forum leadreship. Again your implication of my doing so is unfair and innacurate bro. As for communications with Wayne that has mostly been through private email and not in any way directly connected to this forum. It has been with him as my friend and not in his official capacity as a forum mod. So I think again it is unfair to characterize this in a way that implies I am not listening to what has been shared with me. I bring up this issue when I encounter the types of problems that we are talking about in threads that I am participating in. So again your characterization of me continually bringing this issue up as though I have a beef with the board and can't wait to get it out in every way and at every opporuntiy that I can s unfair Dave and a gross mischaracteriszation of where I am coming from. Again bro you and I have barely spoken about this so how you can you imply that I have somehow presented suggested changes, they have been rejectred, and that I am now continuing to bring up this issue? That's unfair Dave. If you as a mod on this forum want to tell me to not bring this issue up in the context of responding to problems I enncounter in threads I participate in ever again I will submit to your leadership in this and never mention it again on this forum. Period. So far no one has ever told me such a thing but if they did I would never mention it here again so help me God. As for me discussing it with Wayne further as a general issue that concerns me with regard to internet fellowships that's between me and him since our communications are almost always outside the forum. Though I would not want to place him in an uncomfortable position by talking to him about what happens on this forum especifically. Rather I might want to get his input on this problem in general with a view to getting his advice about how to deal with it in anything new I may start. May I suggest that we take this to PM if you want to discuss this further? I do not want to make this a divisive issue and feel that this thread is moving in that direction. I will continuue to respond as long as one's ask me questions or such or mischaracterize what I have said but I think it might be best to take this to PM or close down this thread at this point. Carlos

It implies that you do not agree with how they are doing things, and that you have better ideas and could run the board better. It almost sound mutinistic, as if George and the mods should not be the only ones deciding board policies, and perhaps they should let the rest of have a crack at it. Just a few follow up comments if I might bro. I do not think I could run this board better in any way, shape, or form if we are talking about this forum being a mission field. I would't even want to tackle such a task or even try knowing something of the headaches involved behind the scenes to do so. Nn I do not agree with how things are done from a view that the forum is a church. A view that may be decidely mine derived from comments to the affect that we are a group of Christians getting together to build each other up in the faith. If I do have any better ideas they ONLY are applicable to how an online Church should be run. NOT a mission field. IF any such ideas are better I would hope they are based on the Word and NOT my own thinking. Far be it from me to say that George and the mods should not be the one's to make decisions here. I don't know why you might think that but I think no such thing. At all! That would be downright silly if everyone went around making decisions everywhere and I don't hold to such a belief at all. As for someone else having a crack at running this board? No thanks. I think George and the mods are doing just fine IF we view this forum as a mission field. Even if we view it as a Church I am NOT saying that anyone else should run it. I would hope that IF it was indeed an online Church that George and the mods would continue to run it still, just in a way that would apply Biblicial principals for how to deal with troublesome sin in our midst is all. Regardless I did not intend this dicuission to be about this forum but rather to solicit suggestions about where I might go to find what I was looking for. And even that was a response on my part to encountering on a thread I was on some of the same old troublesome problems that I have encountered all over the Internet in threads that I have participated in. Namely uneccessary and uncalled for, potentially disruptive posting. Yes I am Shiloh but only in so far as it is not being operated as a Church while using phrases to describe itself that I can only apply in my head to a Church. If that makes sense. But I am not and do not wish to bash the forum. That would be ungodly and silly. You are right about that too Shiloh but again when I bring this topic up it is always in connection with something happening or that I have experienced that I am responding to. Fro example I responded on another thread to pipe up and share my two cents worth about how we might be missing God's solution to the way things sometimes go downhill. From the perspective of this forum as a Church and how Biblical principals would solve the problem in the future. Would you have me just be quiet and say nothing about a potential solution to problems that the forum encounters? I think I understand why you might be concerned Shiloh but I assure you before God that I am not wanting to cause a problem or be divisive. I don't think anyone else has shown this concern so it may be just be you. I don't know. In any case I asked my questions and got great input to help me understand the problems that I might encounter in potentially starting something new and am thankful for that. If nothing else I am coming to a greater understanding of why it so often seems that I don't fit into your average Church. Mainly I think it's because I look to the Word and want to apply what it says with others without regard to church traditions or how things have always been. This inevitably causes me to bump into things if you know what I mean. Absolutely Shiloh. I understand that. Please note though that I did not start this thread to suggest changes. I was responding to something I encountered on a thread and in frustration I started this thread to see if anyone knew of someplace that I could go to that might be closer to what I am looking for. Namely an online Church. For sure George and the mods are open to suggestions as far as I know and most certainly they have the final say so. If I don't like their decisions I am always free to go elsewhere but that is not the issue Shiloh. The issue is that I have seen a problem that surfaces in virtually ALL the online fellowship areas that I have personally experienced. I was trying to figure out how to address that or to find a place that I was not aware of where these types of problems could be alleviated through the application of principals that are applicable to a Church. Carlos

Thanks Island Rose for your input and thoughts. I guess that is where an essential differerence lies in our respective views. I am looking for a Church online. You already have a Church offline. In my desire to find a Church online I am looking for a place where Christians will apply Biblical principals to problems encountered. Like how to deal with sin in the midst of fellowship and how to avoid the disruptive influence of such. To the degree that such principals are not applied in online fellowships, to that degree the problems that I see occuring online among Christian fellowships will not be overcome in the long run. If any online forum, chat, or other such place is seen to be a mission field then there is absolutely nothing wrong with letting in whoever and interacting with whomever from that context. The problem for me personally comes in when I see a forum or other structure refer to itself in language and using phrases that lead me to think of it as a Church. So for example to say that a mailing list is a place where Christians can come to find fellowship and to build each other up in the faith (a Church) while also saying that it is a mission field to reach the lost will present problems. In that a Chruch and a mission field are to be seen and interacted with in very different ways. I think mixing that which more aptly belongs within a Church wiith that which belongs in a mission field is problematic. It's kind of a mute point though since I am looking for a Church online. I wonder if a poll was taken how many on this forum would say that it is a Church, a mission field, or both? Does that make sense? Carlos

Who is lucy van pelt? . Carlos

Good points all, Dave. Thanks! Carlos

Hey Gerioke! Fancy meeting you on this thread . You need not worry I think about someone telling you if you are out of line. One of the truly nice things about this forum is that if someone is indeed out of line someone will most definitely come along at some point and tell you so. Carlos

Shiloh, You seem to be reacting to what I said in a defensive way and implying things that I did not say. Ifi so I apologize if I said anything wrongly or offensively. I have just been trying to point out what the Bible says about dealing with sin in our midst in response to posts from others and trying to uncover how things could be done differently in another format elsewhere. I respect George and the mods and submit to their leading on this board. Though that does not invalidate what I said about each of us needing to seek the Lord and get ideas from Him about how things might be able to be done better in a general sense on the Internet. My intention is not and was never to demean, disrespect, or otherwise cut down this forum. I am and was seeking God's best and discussing that with others who responded to my posts. Correcting where I saw that correction was needed or otherwise speaking out what I saw to be God's truth as it might be applicable to achieving a better Internet fellowship. If this thread has become counterproductive and if I cannot reasonably discuss this type of issue here then I will certainly submit to saying nothing more about this issue and leave it in God's hands. Just know that I had no ill will toward anyone on this board or a bad heart wanting to cause a problem. It may have been unwise for me to ask on this board if anyone knew where I could find what I was looking for but my heart was, as far as I can tell about things within my own heart, right before God in terms of having had a good motive for wanting to discuss this with others. Carlos

Hi Dave. How are you bro? Hope all s well. I hear you bro. and in no way shape or form, God knows, would I diminish the work, trial and labors that you or others have gone through on my behalf and on behalf of others. May God shut my mouth and keep me from saying another word for a month if such is not the case! You are to be commended. George is to be commended. And I dare say every mod that I have ever met on this forum is to be commended in their work. I have not always agreed with what has happened on this forum. I have not always understood what has happened. I have not always seen the labor and hardship that has gone on behind the scenes to make it what it is and in my ignorance I have not always been grateful as I should be. But none of what has happened and what you or others have done in the name of Christ invalidates my point. That there is sometiing very wrong with how sin is dealt with in the midst of the Church as a whole. And that to the degree that this forum is a reflection of the overall Church and does not deal with sin in it's midst in a likewise manner it is not dealing with things as God would want bro. And the divisiveness and problems it has experienced will resurface again and again and again. I don't want to make an issue of this bro. I just felt a need to share what I felt after reading the thread. Everyone seemed to decry what happened and was praising George and the mods (and rightly so!!) but no one seems to have mentioned the possiblility that perhaps the way to keep such things from happening in the future was to deal with sin in our midst as God would want. So I piped up and said my piece. I need not belabor the point bro if you disagree and we can leave it at that. As always I appreciate and value your input bro. Carlos

It's not about finding utopia Geroike. It's about dealing with sin in the midst of the Chruch properly. It's not about cleansing ourselves from the rif raf. It's about siding with God against sin in our midst and bringing to bear, through the Church, God's intended discipline to help them brreak from their sin. Look at these passages Gerioke (from the NIV). Forgive me for quoting it at lengh but I thik it's important to see that what I have been saying about dealing with sin in the midst of the Church is not just my opinion. Please note that God withheld His blessing from the Israelites over the sin of ONE man who hid nothing more than a robe, some silver, and a wedge of gold under his tent. And that God blessed the stoning of the person who did it and his entire family! God''s character has not changed! He will still withhold blessing from His people for hidden and unrepented of sin.

Thanks Gerioke! I like to think of myself as seeking the path of righteousness at least . It's not a matter of keeping the malcontents out now that I think about it more but rather how to deal with them once they get in. What applies in a healthy church according to the Word should be applicable to any internet manifestation of that same Church on the Internet. If by obstinate people you mean the kind of person I have previously described such a person is not able to get God's help until they humble themselves and repent. To discipline them, no differently than disciplining a child, is to help them come to repentence and to break from their obstinacy. God disciplines us for own good. It should be but a reflection of God's discipline for a Church to discipline those who are obstinate and unrepentent. It is PRECISELY the help that they need. Carlos

That we must abide by what George and the mods allow given that we are on their forum is without question. But may I suggest, and I think George and the mods would agree with this, that our guidebook if you will is not George and the mods but God through His Word? I have seen George and the mods helld in such high esteem here sometimes, and there is to be sure a lot to praise them in what they have done, that I wonder if this high esteem can sometimes interfere with seeing God's ulltimate way of doing things better. In other words we may think that because George and the mods are being led by the Spirit in the best way they know how that there isi no way that we, who are likewise being led by the Spirit by the way, can come to see how God might want to do things differently apart from their leading. There is a very subtle but dangerous view in Christian circles I think that leaders are in such a place in the Church that only they can discern the will of God or properly seek Him to fathom how we should be. As I see it a leaders main role is to lead by example of Christilikeness in how they conduct themselves. Not to get between us and God and determine what is and is not right by God to do. As I mentioned in a previous post I want to encourage everyone to seek the Lord directly on what is happening in Christian circles, to uncover the needs that are there, and to do something about it as God gives us light to do so from His Word. Anyone one of us can do that as we all are competent to do so by virtue of having His Spirit living in us. Indeed that is so true Shiloh in the sense of them being everywhere. But I believe with all my heart that God has instructed us in His Word as to how to deal with such within the Church. May I also suggest that the fact that there is currently no such place might be indicative of God wanting to do something new? As opposed to us concluding that this is the only way it can be or that it will ever be? May I suggest in view of that, that there is something wrong in how we are doing Church at least on the Internet if instead of being contnually refreshed by our online fellowship we are oftentimes worn out from the conflicts? Your thoughts are always appreciated bro. The only answers are in the Word. May I suggest that we seek the Lord through His Word, with willing hearts to do things outside the box, to give us insight as to how He might want us, the Church online, to do things diferently? Carlos PS. May I suggest that I stop saying may I suggest so often

Then yes, I do still sin. But my sins are not the persistent, obstinate, and unwilling to stop sins I am referring to. For example I might get angry here and there with others in a way that is sinful but I repent from it when I fall, get up to claim the forgiveness to be found in Christ and go on. There is a BIG difference between sins that we fall into and get up from and those which we undulge in, treasure, and refuse to repent from. It's like this. On the one hand is the kind of sinning that is like a runner running down the track who falls and stumbles (like a Christian falling through some weakness of the flesh). Different runners may fall in different ways and some may take longer than others to get up and keep running. But they do get up and keep following their coaches instructions. On the other hand there is a runner who decides one day that he is not going to run anymore. That he will sit down on purpose on the track and refuse to get up. No matter what the coach says. And who ends up causing a real problem for all the other runners using the same track. Do you see the difference that I am talking about Gerioke? Carlos