carlos123

I will answerith your question Gerioke if you answer mine....art thou saved? Just curieth. Carlos

Okay I'll grant you that there are differences of opiinion about what is sinful. But I am not here talking about sin in general into which we all fall into on occasion. I am talking about a persistent, obstinate, lack of willingness to repent from known sin. Let's assume for a moment that such sin is knowable and clearly described in the Bible. Should we allow it to remain in our midst? To fester and cause division and strife? If so is that what God would have us do? Very sad to say but true. I wonder if the church practiced church discipline routinely if such would still be the case though for these Christians would have been confronted about their sin and would have had to deal with it. I don't know why so many, on hearing me talk about these things, equate what I am saying with kicking people out of the Church because they disagree with me. It honestly perplexes me. This is NOT about someone disagreeing with me or anyone else. As I said, strong and deep disagreements are present in my fellowship with other Christians, yet I still fellowship with them. So it's not about that at all. He hrmm (clearing my throat). Not sure how that one sneaked into this conversation but I will leave it oncommented Carlos

I think it's very important to realize Gerioke that this isn't about a perceived personal offense on my part. Over the years I have grown a rather thick skin and been called lots of things for speaking what I believed to be God's truth into a situation. From Jesus freak to fundamental nutcase and everything in between. Some have gotten so hateful toward me that if they could I think they would have reached through my email to choke me . And NOT because I had done or said anything wrong to them at all (though sometimes I have been guilty of that)! So it's not about being personally offended per se. It's about dealing with sin in our midst properly in such a way that God's ultimate glory and honor is held up before the world through the Church. Iit is IMPOSSIBLE for the Church to not judge the sin in it's midst and glorify God at the same time. It's just not possible. At least not in the way God would desire to be glorified through His Bride the Church. Carlos

I understand Allison (boy it's difficult remembering who is who with two names for everyone ). But so you know I don't think most any of the Christians here would say you are a bad guy for saying things in an unChristlike manner (if that is what happens). UnChristlike yes. Bad guy no. Big distinction. To the degree that we are not perfect and are all still growing to that degree we will be found out to be unChristlike in some of what we do and say. So you are in good company . The important thing is to stay open to correction, to fix our eyes on Him, and to be ever aware that He loves us just as we are. Amen to that! By all means Allison. I hope you continue to do so. If ever you experience something else just remember that the Lord is not always represented correctly among His people buut that does not make Him less loving or kind, just and true to you. Well I am still around though I am looking at starting something new when I iron out all the difficulties of doing so and find the time to do it. Carlos

Amen to that Gerioke. Incidentally there is no question in my heart that God is in this forum as well as others where members of His Body can be found. For sure that is what keeps me active in this and other forums. I am just saying that there is something fundamentally wrong with the way Christian forums and other Christian entities (i.e churches, etc..) allow some sinful attitudes and ways of being to be persistently present. Under the notion that one must in order to win the lost. I am looking to find that place where more real, "spiritual fellowship" as Wayne put it, can take place without all the Satanic interruptions if you will. And no I am NOT saying that anyone who comes along and thinks differently from me is a Satanic interruption or that I would not want anyone such a yourself Gerioke to feel included in my conversations with others. To not make you or anyone else feel welcome by virtue of isolating myself from your involvement would in my mind be quite selfish and unChristlike. Carlos

Constant I don't know you at all nor have I seen you around much but from what I have seen of your responses I can't imagine you being the bad guy. I mean, I don't know, maybe you have some far out beliefs that might make you feel that way when others pipe up about them but, having different beliefs does not make you the bad guy. At least not in my book! If you have a wrong heart and an obstinate will to refuse correction from God through others then there might indeed be a problem but like I said I have not seen any of that in you. Thanks Constant. I prefer to look at this as my quest fo be at the center of where God wants me. Not so much a quest to find happiness. Happiness is a very fickle thing. The more you seek it the less you sometimes seem to have. I prefer to just focus on doing what God wants me to do and believing what He wants me to believe, leaving my happiness in His hands. Enjoying it when present and by faith living without it when it's not. Carlos

Well...it's really rather easy I think. Mind you I would not boot out a disagreeable Christian per se as I am not sure that being disagreeable is something we should expel someone from fellowship for. At least not scripturally speaking. Some of us just have grating personalities and we must love said person's through God's process of softening them up. But let's say that we have a Christian who is slandering others. Speaking ill of others and causing division by their slander. Well it seems like we could warn said person, attempt to correct them alone or in private, correct them in the presence of others and then if they still did not repent simply delete their account or block their IP. Though I would leave them a way of contacting ONE person on the forum whom they could indicate repentance through and through whom they could be restored to fellowship. Does that make sense? Carlos

Good question Gerioke. Actually I think what I previouslly asked may not have correctly described what I am after. For the record it is decidedly unscriptural and wrong to base membership in a church or a Christian forum, chat room, or otherwise on whether one is a Christian or not. I do not see that in the Scriptures. What is wrong, is to allow and put up with sinful and unrepentant behaviour, false teachings, and the like without confronting the sin through correction and reproof and without expelling it from our midst if the person practicing it does not repent of it. So for example if I become slanderous toward Wayne my friend among our fellowship with other Christians he would be absolutely godly to come and correct me on it. If I refused to listen he would then be absolutely correct to confront me again in the presence of one or two others. And if I still refused to repent and hung on to bitterness in my heart he and all those in our fellowship would be pefectly right to exclude me from further fellowship until such a time as I did repent. I've been in such fellowships before and the difference between that and the more usual accept everyone and love everyone to death and win them to Christ no matter what they say or do approach is like night and day in terms of glorifying Christ (I am exaggerating here I know but am trying to make a point - no one what I know of accepts anything and everything - well on second thought I do know of one Christian forum where that is the case but it's not this one ). How and when to applly that in internet circles is something I have not yet figured out but therre is no doubt in my mind that the principals involved can lead us to experience an Internet fellowship of a kind that few of us have experienced. Does that make sense? Carlos

Hi Constant. Are you talking to me? I'll assume so unless you tell me otherwise . Well...let me put it this way. I VERY MUCH enjoy fellowship of the kind that I have experienced with Wayne (Saved by Grace) and others over email and discussion centered on God's view of things with those at large that I have had on this forum. I want much more of that. So yes I like it here to the degree that I have experienced such here. But, I also have experienced a great deal of another aspect of this and many other forums that I do not like so much. There I will be, talking to a brother or sister in Christ, either learning something from God on my part or they of God through me as we interact, and WHAM! Somebody will come in and start acting out in their flesh to introduce Satan into our midst. And they will continue to do so into other threads and other conversations because they are allowed to remain. That's not good! And certainly not conducive to fellowship. It wouldn't work in a small home group and it certainly doesn't seem to work at large over the Internet in terms of making intimate spiritual fellowship very likely to stay on track to to honor God. I see these types of disruptive discussions among "Christian" this or that happen all the time. And you know what the end result of al that is? The unbelieving world looks in and says to themselves "How ridiculous can you get? It's just a bunch of fundamental nuts arguing again!". Almost as bad I, and probably many other Christians, come along and see that and start to wonder if God is alive, if His Church really is His Body, or some other such a thing as we observe the divisiveness in the Church. It's got to stop! And I see how it can, or at least I think I see how it can stop. Namely through us becoming more like a Church and less open to what God says a church should not accept in it's midst. I still have to think about and pray about this some because like Wayne rightly brought up one cannot expect Church principles of discipline to be rightly applied accross the board to all forum members, some of whom may not really be in fellowship with anyone least of all with Christ. Yet at the same time I am absollutely convinced based on my reading of the Bible that the Lord has very clearly laid out principles of Church fellowship that are meant to protect us from division and strife and that we as a Church (and I am speaking here of the unversal Chruch which is His Body) are not applying. More specificaly that we are not as Christians applying in Christian forums and elsehwere on the internet. I don't have all the answers mind you but one thing that I am doing and that I would encourage everyone to do is to think outside the box. Think outside of established church or forum traditions if you will. Think even outside of the whole concept of a forum and see if God might not want us as Christians to do something different. For His ultimate glory and honor. Carlos

Hi bro, As always you share some good thoughts to ponder I can see that. Good point. Those verses apply but only if we are talking about spiritual fellowship. Not about interacting with others in a general sense over the Internet through something like this forum. Hmmm....I will have to think about that some. Hmmm....so is fellowship of the kind that you and I have experienced in our friendship possible to have in an open communication forum such as here? What would have been the effect on our fellowship if someone with divisive intent would have entered in? I'll have to think about what you said bro as you do bring up some good points. I'll post back after I have done some thinking . Carlos

Hiya Angelicvoice. How are you? Can you expand on that a bit angelicvoice? I mean do you think all judgment is bad? What is the difference as you understand it between righteous and unrighteous judgment? Or is there a difference? Carlos

Hmmm....well I have already found such fellowship online though very limited so far. Between me and other Christians who I communicate regularly with through email. Me and Wayne (Saved by Grace) have been good friends quite some time. We most certainly do not agree with each other on everything. There are some areas of deep disagreement and we have had our moments. But at no time that I am aware of have we been out to choke each other. To condemn each other or otherwise treat each other in an ungodly manner. Oh we have been unChristlike to each other sometimes but through correction and reproof and forgiveness we have gone on. I am in regular contact with another Christian too that I do not see eye to eye on either. No way. But again we are able to fellowship with each other in a spirit of loving comradership centered on Christ. I assure you, such fellowship is not boring. But, it is missing the usual bickering, arguing, backbiting, ungodly doctrine, and what have you that one tends to find in the more open "fellowship" of the Internet at large. My desire is to expand the fellowship I have already experienced and to expand the circle of those I fellowship with. Most certainly I am not saying that I want to fellowship only with those who think just like me. Indeed I have not found such fellowship and am unlikely to find much of that. My main desire is to find fellowship with Christians who have humble hearts and who are yielded to God in their everyday lives. Without all the pointless bickering, arguing, and sinful responses to each other coming in to keep us from learning from God together. Point well made other one. But are we then to conclude that this is just the way it is and that we can't change it? I would rather seek the Lord on why this is and see if we as a Church are not missing something that might lead us to act differently toward one another. I believe that there are things which God would have us do that WILL lead to better fellowship. Don't you? Carlos

Hmmm....interesting discussion starting here . I did not mean to start such a discussion ya all only to ask anyone if they knew of such a place. I suppose it was a bit naive of me to think that someone would just say "Oh yeah! Go there..." I think we are hitting on a lot of issues that I believe are at heart of incorrect thinking in the Church. I'll share some more in another post below but I just also wanted to say that I am not out to bash this or any other forum per se and do not want anyone to think that I am. I see what seems like a need in Christian fellowship online and want to address it if I can through what already exists but, since that seems unworkable, to start something new. That is essentially where I am coming from. Carlos

Absolutely I believe in that bloodbought. No question. But reaching out to help those in need who come to Christian forums does not, in my understanding of the Scriptures, mean putting up with sin in our midst in so far as any of us argue, bicker, slanderously talk of each other, go around pronouncing false doctrine to be true, sharing agnostic and atheistic beliefs with each other, and so forth. I think you are making the same mistake that so much of the Christian world seems to be making these days. Namely equating the need to discipline those in our midst who call themselves brethren but who engage in divisiveness and unrepentant sin with being unloving and alternatively equating attempts to bring holiness into our midst through such discipline with being unwilling to help those in need who might be in the throes of some besetting sin. The two are not mutually exclusive. Is not our highest calling, even more important than helping those in need, to glorify God in the Church? To uphold his holiness in our midst? Without holiness the Bible says no one will see the Lord. And without the Church acting in holiness to expel wickedness from among us in a righteous way, people will not be able to see the beauty and magnificence of the God we worship. How can we as a Church help those in need to see the true character of Christ if we allow sin in our midst to go unchallengened, unconfronted, and undealt with? All under the mistaken notion that we must do so in order to minster to those in need? I am not saying that we should go around trying to find sin under every bushel. That is not what I am saying. Only that we need to start dealing with sin in our midst the way the Bible says to deal with it. Carlos

Hi bro . I think you are misunderstanding where I am coming from bro. I am not looking for a place of perfect fellowship. Rather I am looking for a place that will stand against sin in it's midst and deal with it according to Biblical principals. Which does not inolve allowing people to just have at it in terms of being free to express ungodly doctrine, atheistic beliefs, argue, bicker, or otherwise in the context of fellowship. I am looking for a place that will apply verses like these....

I am rather surprised at how everyone seems to think that what George shared is all the solution we need to avoid further disruptions in the future. George this is not directed at you personally and I also thank you for making this board available but may I suggest that booting people off the board who come in with false doctrine or otherwise cause division might be more in line with how the Scriptures talk of handling these types of problems than just praying to God, fightting to make sure our words are edifying, and so forth? I know that this is late in this thread and probably not as applicable as it once was but I am absolutely amazed at the seeming deception among Christians who see booting people who cause problems out of places like forums as being somehow unloving and unChrist-like or something. I honestly don't understand it. If real churches were allowed to have within their midst what this forum sometimes allows in the form of false doctrines and trouble makers being allowed to say their piece there would be division and misunderstandiing followed by more division and misunderstandings. What ever happened to the concept of church discipline as laid out in the Scriptures? Oh...I know this forum is not looked on as a Church... yet we also claim that this is a place for Christians to fellowship and strengthen each other in the faith. If that is not a church I don't know what is. If we don't start acting like a church, albeit a church on the Internet, we are doomed to have the kinds of problems this forum has experienced in the past continue to crop up until the cows come home, or more appropriately for us Christians until Christ comes. Just my two cents for whatever it's worth. Carlos

The Law passed by President Bush (while governor of Texas) was completely in line with a pro-life stand. In fact it was a Law that moved in the direction of being pro-life from that which was in existance at the time which was far worse. Many news organizations are trying to portray his stand on Terri as being hypocritical in view of the Law he signed in Texas. In the public acceptance of such a view, my fellow American's are showing once again the incredible degree of ignorance and acceptance of slander and pseud-truth that they have become so inclined to accept these days. Please read the article at the following link on the Texas Law to learn the falsehood of portraying President Bush in a hypocritical light. http://www.nrlc.org/euthanasia/Terri/BushTexasLaw.html Carlos

Hi Constant. I think you very seriously misunderstood my sarcasm and expression of lefty ideas as my own Constant. I do NOT believe, just so you know, that Bush is the new Hitler or any such thing . Please re-read my previous post carefully in that light Constant. Sorry if I expressed myself in a way that might have not been as clear as I intended myself to be. Carlos

Thank you Cerran. You sound like more of a resonable person than your post initially led me to think you might be . Again I apologize if I misunnderstood where you were coming from. Perhaps you can. I am not opposed to seeing holes in my thinking and I undoubtedly have some. If you want to start a new thread I will gladly follow you there to discuss this more. Carlos

I've really appreciated getting the fellowship that I have on this forum. I have learned lots about having fellowship over the Internet by being on this forum both pro and con. And I have ranged far and wide all over the Internet to experience fellowship all over the place and while there's been good in all of it I have seen some major flaws in the way fellowship is allowed to happen on the internet. I am just sick and tired of Christian fellowship on the Internet keeping itself open to all kinds of people coming in and causing disruptions and am wondering if anyone knows of any place on the Internet where Christians and only Christians can fellowship together? l am not interested in having this place of fellowship also be a place a mission. Most all Christian fellowship sites have this perspective which in my opinion is at the bottom of why there are so many problems with people coming in and causing disruptions. I know there are some on this forum that would disagree with me strongly but Christ did not set up the Church to be a place of mission. Rather He commanded us to go and be missionaries. To our unsaved neighbors and others. There are literally millions of places on the Internet where we can reach out to unbelievers. I see so few Christians out there it's ridiculous. We all congregrate in our forums and chat rooms thinking it great to reach out to those who come visit us while the world goes to pot. No differently than we congregrate in our church buildings. How many Christians participate on non-Christian oriented forums to reach the lost? If we are there we sure don't let on we are Christians. I have been wanting to create a place for Christians and will do so, God willing, as soon as I find the time to implement it but does anyone know of a place that might approach that somewhere on the Internet? Before I create something myself? I know there are problems inherent in trying to implement a Christians only forum or some such but I do not believe these problems are insurmountable. I am however, wanting to find a place of fellowship, until I create something myself, that is less open to confrontation, arguing, bickering, and all the other things that are allowed to happen even on this forum in the name of being a mission field as well as a place of fellowship. Thanks. Carlos Edited to clarify something I said and make it clearer.

Hi Cerran, To be pro-life is not at all inconsistent with being pro-Iraq war Cerran. Forgive me but you sound like one of those lefties that it is almost impossible to discuss things rationally with. Much less to discuss things with from a Biblical standpoint. By your logic we should not have become involved in World War II where millions died. We should not get involved to defend Twaiwan if China attacks. We should not have gotten involved to defend Korea during the Korean War. Indeed we should not be involved in war at all since it kills people which you claim to be anti-life. We should just all roll over and use peaceful protest to win over our enemies. Their shooting us to death until they come to their senses will be only a temporary thing. It will not last. Within every human there is good and everyone will come to their senses if we just give them time and patiently and non-volently try to win them over. That the world will work out it's problems while we sit in our own country and do not get invoved. Peace everyone. Flower power is what we need. Perhaps I have been too shell shocked by discussions with lefties who all but think that way. Without exception I have never seen a single lefty acknowledge any wrongness in their views. From Bush being a new Hitler, to peace - peace at any cost, and everything in between. You may not be such a person Carran and if I am wrong in that you may be I sincerely apologize. If you want to discuss things rationally by all means I am willing. If you want to discuss things from a Biblically based viewpoint by all means I am willing. But I will not go into a discussion of such with you on this thread which is about Terri Schiavo. If you want to start a new thread and talk about the injustice of the Iraq war I will be more than happy to follow you there and discuss things there. Carlos

What has happened with Terri is the end result of what we as a people have allowed to happen. The devaluing of human life is not new. It has been going on for many years under the name of abortion. And such has deadened the collective concience enough to allow what happened to Terri to happen. Like most American's I have, in times past, grown so accustomed to hearing the word "abortion" connected with a woman's right to choose and other nice sounding and justifying phrases that my conscious awareness of what happens during an abortion and the utterly abhorrent and inhuman nature of it has been severely compromised in me. My delusion has been a result of a choice to let other things in life take precedence with the terrible result that something like what happened to Terri could have ended up happening. If we are to look at what happened to Terri with enlightened eyes so as to understand why it happened we must all take some responsibility for allowing abortion to become an accepted and normal medical procedure in our society. With the subsequent devaluing of human life that has occured. Look at these links...from the National Right to Life. Look at them! Take a good long look and see the wickedness of our own hearts. Stare at the complacency that lies inside each of our hearts as you behold a form of evil that even Nazi's monsters did not engage in. The routine pulling apart of human beings. Limb by limb. Without the benefit of pain medications or any other form of comfort. Calm and resting in the warmth of a mother's womb one minute and being torn to pieces the next. BE AWARE THAT THE MATERIAL IN THESE LINKS IS EXTREMELY GRAPHIC AND SUITABLE FOR VIEWING ONLY BY THOSE WITH A STRONG STOMACH! http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/DEabortiongraphic.html http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/PBA_Image...thers_Place.htm What happens to a human being under a doctor's scalpel inserted into the womb of a woman during an abortion is NO less gruesome, NO less barbaric, NO less inhuman than what happened under the inhuman monsters of Nazi Germany! The only difference between butchering people by pulling them apart piece by piece while they are conscious and alive and that which happens to a baby during an abortion is a few inches between the baby and the outside world. In some cases even that difference is inconsequential since under partial birth abortions almost the entire body of a baby is outside the womb when a doctor inserts an instrument into the the back of a babies head to suck out it's brains and kill it. We condemn the Nazi's and rightly so but as Jesus told the Pharisees, who condemned their ancestors for killing the Prophets and by so doing thought themselves so much better than their ancestors, by our condemnation of the Nazi's we condemn ourselves for we who condemn the inhuman monsters of the Holocaust do the same thing as a society ourselves!!!! Carlos

How about this "juicy" tid bit...(juicy in the sense of giving sustenace to those in favor of Terri living).... The above is from http://www.propertyrightsresearch.org/2004...rs_of_death.htm Read the whole thing. From the way Dr. Cranford was stating most emphatically all over the news shows that he was absolutely correct in his diagnosis of Terri and that other doctors did not know what they were talking about one would think the case of David Mack had never happened. Dr. Cranford's arrogance may be even worse than Judge Greer's in his view of being the Almighty when it comes to being absolutely, incontrevertibly correct in his diagnosises. Such statements of "accurate diagnosis" are acted upon when people believe every word spouted by so-called unbiased medical professionals who in actual fact are biased in favor of death. And when facts directly contradicting statements made by such professionals, even from their own backgrounds, are relegated to the dust bin of history and conveniently forgotten or never brought up. Sometimes I think that what it has come down to is a case of who will state a so-called "fact" the loudest and most emphatically with the most professional credentials behind their name rather than a matter of uncovering or even being interested in the actual truth of a matter. What a nation of ignorance we have become! Surely the Bible's words to the affect that we are like sheep and that we are the blind being led about by the blind could not have more accurately described the condition of our country today! That the Church sees and does little of anything as whole, even in acts of public protest in the streets of our cities and towns, make us all the more liable before a holy God for the unjust treatment of those who cannot speak for themselves!!! Jesus said that the sin of those who claim to see remains and while I do not believe that the sin of our inaction cannot be forgiven the stench from the Church is so strong as to reach to the highest heavens!! The state of the Church as a whole utterly disgusts me!!! A state that has been made all the more clear to me in the whole Terri situation. I would rather fellowship with one homeless and unwashed Christian in a back alley in some down trodden area of town and call that church than enter the biggest and brightest church building in the land and partake of fellowship with the multidues of professing Christians who love their lives so much that they would do nothing to upset the apple cart of their indifference and ignorance!!! Surely we have become a Church of people more interested in having our ears tickled than in having the truth spoken to us. Just as the Bible says would happen in the end times. Carlos

Let's see now....that tells me that Greer considered it impossible that the medical diagnosis could have been wrong, that judgments based on suggestion are okay when it comes to deciding whether a person lives or dies, that person's previously diagnosed in PVS have NEVER come out of their states, that Terri could not have possibly have been attempting to say "I want to live!" and that there is absolutely no possibility that his judgments regarding the facts could have been wrong. Did I miss anything . It seems to me that this man is incredibly arrogant and filled with a pride that absolutely blinds him to even the possibility that he could have been wrong. Some may look at such a statement as being un-Christian but the very Jesus who said love thy neighbor also called certain men of his day hypocrites and white-washed tombs full of dead men's bones! It's time for the Church to get back to acting in line with ALL that Jesus was and wants us to be and to have no bones about calling arrogance and pride what it is. Arrogance and pride are no less evil than adultery and homosexuality and we as a Church should be just as willing to condemn such in the heart of a particular individual as we are to condenm outward acts of sin in those who practice them. Especially among those who claim to be Christians. This reminds me of a case years ago where I a woman, being likewise starved and dehydrated to death, was judged to be incompetent and starved anyway though she cried out for someone to give her water and something to eat!!! Eventually the courts ruled in her favor but it was too late by then as she had died though nurses had been so horrified that they had tried to give her food and water in defiance of court order. There are many web sites that talk of this case but the following summary is from the National Right to Life web site at (http://www.nrlc.org/euthanasia/Terri/consequences_of_casual_conve.htm) Utterly DISGUSTING and completely against the grain of the value God puts on life!!! Carlos

Can you expand on what you said a bit more Leonard? . Not sure what previous statements made you are saying Article 3 applies to. Likewise I am not sure who should feel bad about not knowing something in Article 3 that you feel applies....... My guess is that you are referring to Section 2 - Clause 2 or Article 3 which states... As I read this clause it says that the Supreme Court will have direct jurisdiction over all cases affecting Ambassadors, public Ministers and Consuls, and those where a State is a party. That in all other cases the Supreme Court will have jurisdiction through appeal to it. And that the Congress may regulate the Exceptions and Regulations under which that jurisdiction is carried out. Given that attempts were exhausted through the Florida State courts and that an attempt was being made to overturn a perceived injustice I see nothing at all inconsistent with the Constitution to have allowed the case to be brought before the Judicial branch of our Federal government. Either directly or by appeal. Congress stepped in to make plain the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court (through the Federal Court system) in saying that the Schindlers could appeal to the higher courts to right an injustice they felt needed righting. That is all I see them as having done. If that is so I see absolutely nothing unconstitutional about what the Congress and Senate did. Nor do I see anything whatsoever unconstitutional about what the President did in signing what the Senate and Congress agreed to as Law. I think it is quite a stretch to call that tyranny. I mean if we go as far as saying that Congress had no business making plain the Federal jurisdiction over the Terri case then we must also disavow any jurisdictional claim over most any number of other State issues that have alrerady been declared within the jurisdiction of the Judicial branch of government. Everything from appeals made by criminalls in capital cases to appeals made under civil rights issues would have to be deemed inappropriate IF we say that an injustice occuring in State cases cannot be taken further into the Federal courts. Under the Constitution the States do not have absolute power to treat their citizens in whatever way they so choose. The situation with Terri can certainly be seen from a purely jurisdictional or legal view (a lens which most all the judges saw this through) but if we do just that we are missing the heart of the matter. The bottom line is that a human being was being perceived as being put to death unjustly. Surely the Federal Courts had and have jurisdiction over such a case if they have any jurisdiction at all to interfere in State cases that may lead to injustice and violation of the rights of U.S. citizens within State boundaries. No offense intended to anyone but to say that Congress and the President were acting tyranically shows an ignorance of the Constitution at best or a slanderous accusation that is not supported by the Constitution at worst in my opinion. I could be wrong but that is how I see it. You know as an aside the amount of ignorance and brazen declarations made to the effect that this or that is unconstitutional absolutely amaze me. I mean you would think these days that we could use the unconstititutional card, as I like to call it, to win just about any hand that life might offer us under these United States. It's a card that just like in poker many claim to have. But just like in poker, when it is called, it turns out to not be in our hand and indeed to be no card at all. It would be downright hilarious as an example of general ignorance if it did not involve such serious consequences. Next thing you know we will be declaring that any attempts to tell us to keep our dogs on leashes, increase prices on our electirc bils, and limit the kinds of movies we can watch are unconstitutional! It's quite handy actually to declare such because most American's are so incredibly ignorant of what the Constitution says that just like the king with no clothes everyone might just go along with our declarations and not fuss over what we declare so emphatically and so loudly to be so unconstitutional. Carlos