truthnluv

No problem. Oh, I don't think that. I believe the actual phrase in the Greek is, "The day that you eat of it dying ye shall die". Correct me if I'm wrong. I'd be willing to go along with either word. I was thinking of withholding in a permanent sense, but either word is fine with me. But they're getting alot of perks in the meantime. What's up with that(smile)? It reminds me of Abraham's words to the rich man in hell... He told him that he had a wonderful life full of pleasure while on earth, therefore, he had recieved his consolation... Unbelievers are enjoying lots of consolation prizes on their way to hell... lots of mercy and grace. Do you think that would be possible without the Cross? Truthnluv

The statement that dispensationalism was late on the scene is extremely misleading. Ever since Constantine declared Rome to be Christian there has been rampant error and ignorance of the truth. This began shortly after the apostles died and lasted more than 1000 years until the reformation. And even then things didn't become perfect... There is still rampant error and ignorance of the truth. By your standards salvation by grace through faith alone is late on the scene. Reading the Bible for yourself is late on the scene. Confessing your sins directly to God is late on the scene. Etc. For the most part, most truth has been inaccesible until "recently".

Theologians that agree with me on unlimited atonement? Or you mean in general? In general, I'm basically fundamental evangelical dispensational. But even among that group some of my perspectives are only held by a small remnant... Every now and then I run across a like-mind. What makes you think I believe that? I believe the punishment for sin has always been eternal death/separation from God. I said, precisely, that Adam was delivered from the judgement of eternal death that he brought upon himself... This was mercy based on the Cross. In your opinion, how could God be just and withhold judgement at the same time apart from the Sacrifice of the Cross? So, you believe Adam and Eve are in hell right now suffering eternal separation from God? If not, then they did not suffer the punishment of eternal death as God said they would. Ok. What study tools do you use? Truthnluv

Yes, God is the standard of what is right. So, whatever He says is right. Hence, when God does what He says it is right... That is justice. We're in agreement we just expressed it in different words.

Do you agree that God's justice is simply God doing what He said He would do? In effect, God adhering to His own rules that He Himself created? If so, then wouldn't your quote be like saying, 'it is in God's nature to not adhere to His own laws'. Don't get me wrong, I believe God always intended to show us mercy... But this mercy came at a great cost... Someone had to pay dearly and that someone was Jesus Christ. So, God never actually held back His judgement towards sin... So, God's mercy to you is contingent upon the suffering of someone else. 2Pet.3:9 is discussing Christ return in relation to His promise to His elect. That is the context. Peter says that God is longsuffering toward "us". Peter is talking about the elect not the world. If Peter was refering to the world he would not include himself nor the believers in that group by saying "us". He already dealt with that group(the world) distictly in verses 3-7. "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any [of us] should perish, but that all [of us] should come to repentance. If God came right now some of His elect would be lost, meaning they would never get a chance to be born, not to mention, come to repentance. That is what God is waiting for.... and it's for the benefit of the elect. When the last of God's elect of the Church Age comes to repentance then the "fullness of the gentiles" will be complete. Then the Church will be raptured and the time of Jacob's Trouble(Tribulation) will begin. God will resume His dealings with Israel. I hope nobody is alarmed by the fact that the word "us" is not used all throughout the verse. This is a common practice throughout the Bible(and by all speakers of every language, actually) called ellipsis. A word is left out for poetic reasons, the flow of the text, or conciseness, and must be filled in by the reader based on the context. Every word you see that is in italics in you Bible was not in the original... It was added by the translators for clarity. Another verse I am considering is James 5:11

Hello, book wirm. There are several ways I could answer your question, but let's take the simple approach; Let's look at the BIG PICTURE. God does whatever He wants. He does not adhere to some giant rulebook in the sky... He is the rule book. Whatever pleases God is righteous and whatever displeases God is sin. There are no other factors in determining right from wrong. When God says that He is just He simply means that He will do whatever He said He will do according to the the guidelines that He Himself has established and according to His own sovereign will. Justice is when God enforces the Laws that He Himself has established. When God told Adam, "The day that you eat(disobey me) you will die", then that is exactly what must have happened or God is not just. God did not have to make this law, but He did. And since He said it He had to carry it out; That is justice. Aha!... But that did not happen... How is it then that God is still just?... How could God(in mercy) not do what He said He would do? More precisely, how could God undo the judgement that Adam brought upon himself? That is the question. And the answer is Jesus crucified! God does not lie, so He will always do what He says. Every single sin must be punished with eternal death because He said they would be. So, justice simply means that God will do what He said He will do. Now that we've established what God's "justice" is, let's move on: Now, God said that the penalty for sin is eternal death. And we all sinned in Adam. Therefore, according to God's own rules, we must all be punished with eternal death. This is justice. For God to allow one single sin to go unpunished with eternal death would be injustice, by His own decree. You see, God is the one who established the parameters of His justice... He decreed it, so it must happen exactly the way He decreed. Mercy is the withholding of Judgement. But God did not really withhold His judgement. He did exactly what He said He would... He punished each and every sin with eternal death... He made the soul of His only begotten Son an offering for sin... In effect, God paid the His own penalty Himself! This terrible judgement has been withheld from you and I... But judgement has not been withheld overall. Christ tasted death on behalf of every man. If God says the penalty for sin is eternal death, but then he doesn't carry it out then what does that make Him? Of course, it would make Him a liar and unjust. But since it is impossible for God to tell a lie and He is just, He did punish every sin with eternal death through the substitutionary death of Christ... And this is the only reason that you and I can recieve mercy... the withholding of judgement; Because of the Cross of Christ. And since Christ was the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world", meaning it was always in God's mind as imminent, He has always dealt with people in the light of it's predestined occurence. Well, that may or may not seem so simple. If not, I apologize. Sorry(smile). Truthnluv

Everyone is not saved from the penalty of sin, which is eternal death. But everyone in the world recieves grace and mercy because of the Cross. Truthnluv

I would recommend Hermeneutics: Princibles and Processes of Biblical Interpretation by Henry A. Virkler. There are many theologians who use the grammatical-historical, lexical-syntactical methods, but not all align their exegetical methods with their theory. In other words, they don't always follow their own rules. In theory Augustine outlined many of the princibles of sound exegesis, but in practice he tended towards heavy allegorization. Luther rejected the the allegorical method and stated that a proper understanding of scripture must come from a literal interpretation of the text. He held that one must consider historical conditions, grammer, and context. However, he did have a tendency to see Christ in many places in the Old Testament where nobody else did. This was an attempt to apply the Old Testament to the Church... He was trained in a Catholic Jesuit seminary, so go figure. Catholics do the same thing. Calvin is considered by many the greatest exegete of the Reformation period. Him and Luther were pretty much on the same page. He believed the allegorical method was a contrivance of satan to obscure scriptures true meaning. He placed emphasis on studying the context, grammer, words, and parallel passages, as opposed to reading one's own preunderstanding into the text. "Let the author say what he does say, not what we think he ought to say", to quote him loosely. The princibles articulated by these men became the major guiding post for modern orthodox protestant interpretation and there writings(along with many others) have influenced my understaning of proper interpretation. Basically, I just read alot and I try to glean a little truth here and there as much as possible. Limited atonement is primarily a Calvinist doctrine. Most other Christians believe that Christ paid for everyone's sins. Dispensationalist believe that there is a distinction between the Church and Isreal. This is taught by Dallas Seminary, Grace Theological Seminary, Moody Bible College, etc. Scofield and Ryrie, who both have study bibles, adhere to Dispensational Theology. The Bible Knowledge Commentary set is Dispensational. Etc. However, most Dispensational theologians totally ignore their own princibles when it comes to the Gospels. I guess because Jesus is talking they feel like it just has to apply to them too. But it doesn't. I wouldn't necessarily say that the King James is the only Bible that can be trusted. Why would you think that and what version do you use? Truthnluv

Hi, pastoreric. I caugth your question, but I didn't have time to respond. Sorry about that. I'm enjoying our discussion too. Truthnluv

Right. The Bible clearly teaches that the means by which God can remain Just and still extend mercy and grace, is by the sacrifice of His Son on the Cross. You can read Romans for more details. Truthnluv <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Where is it clearly taught that mercy and grace are not attributes of God? What I mean by this is in the numersous text that talk of the mercy of God and the grace f God, I see not indication that htese were not attributes before the the cross. All I see is that the cross was the agency through which He expressed these attributes fully to men <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It seems that we're not so much in disagreement about this. I believe that mercy and grace are results of the Cross and you kinda believe that. That's fine. Truthnluv