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Littlelambseativy this is something I had typed previous to your post, but I thought it answered your question. So, I'm not getting smart with you, and this is not directed at you personally. I am fed up with some on this thread who are careless with God's Word and I want to make a point. Peace, Steve Jesus said that He needed to be baptized "to fulfill all righteousness." Now Jesus might have meant that only for Himself or He might have meant it for all of His followers. I think that I will teach others to do as Jesus did, just to be on the safe side. We are, after all, supposed to imitate Him aren't we? Here Jesus said that we are to baptize all converts, which means all believers are supposed to be baptized. I'm not as wise as some who have posted here and who have said that baptism is not required, but then I

Well I'll eat my words, I just have to. People ignore you because you are rude, you are a false accuser of the brethren, you have no real understanding of scripture, you read your biases into what others write, you twist scripture to fit whatever fallacy you believe and you are unteachable. Peace in Christ. I don't know if you are a Christian or not but I pray Jesus will forgive you and I forgive you myself. I love you.

That's exactly what I've been saying you are just to (whatever) to see. So you got baptized and you did not believe in Jesus? I think not. It's just nonsense to think that somebody who does not believe in Jesus would be baptized in the name of Jesus. Besides that, the verse clearly says "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved", any person who understands English should be able to understand the implication Jesus made by that. If those who believe and are baptized are saved, then those who do not believe or who are not baptized are not saved. You lie and say I add to scripture, while you are taking away from scripture, so you can win an argument. Instead of just trying to win search for the truth in scripture. Jesus talked about guys like you. "The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks." Are you a Christian now? Because I see you saying being baptized (which is being obedient to the Lord) is not necessary. No Christian would ever say obedience to the Lord is not necessary for salvation, at least none that I have ever met. This is the second time you have made this same lie. First, you lied and said I added circumcision to Ephesians and then made up a far fetched story to cover your lack of knowledge about the entire book of Ephesians and Paul's ministry. And now you lie again, falsely accusing me of adding to the Word. You will be ignored from this post forward.

To be honest you are nit picking and you clearly have not read Ephesians.

I agree. We know John the Baptist was doing it. None of the Jews seemed surprised by it or against it, so it might have been some form of ceremonial cleansing thing even before John.

Are you calling Jesus a liar??? Luke 23:42-43 42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." 43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." There is no room for different interpretations. Jesus said, He will be with HIM... why is this not clear to you? NO, I am not! As I (and many others) interpret the book of Hebrews, all of the old testament saints waited in Paradise for the death and resurrection of Jesus. Only His blood can justify and wash away sin. Hebrews 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. Hebrews 10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Hebrews 11:39 "These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40 God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect."

here is what makes your position untenable, the whole "if humanly possible" side of it. This causes two problems for you position. First, it makes your self-contradictory. If something is necessary for salvation, it is necessary for salvation 100% of the time. not just when "possible". So, either baptism is necessary or it is not. It is disingenuous to add qualifiers after the fact. Second, nothing about salvation is "humanly possible", salvation is all about God, not about us. You know, that whole "lest anyone should boast" thing that Paul talked about. Salvation is a gift of God, and if we must perform an action to receive that gift, it is no longer a gift, it is a wage. I was was referring to death bed salvation or as one writer wrote "a soldier getting saved in a foxhole." in those cases converts cannot be baptized, it is not humanly possible. In those types of instances God's mercy and justice will prevail. "if we must perform an action to receive that gift, it is no longer a gift", to get salvation we must repent, make confession, believe, be baptized and endure till the end. Not one of of those things are "works", yet scripture is clear we must do them all. When Paul wrote ""lest anyone should boast" he was writing about circumcision and the Law of Moses. When Paul wrote about the "Law" and "works" he was not writing about things like Baptism or Communion, most often he was referring specifically to Torah or the Talmud. He certainly was not referring to Christians living lives in obedience to the command of Chris that are as pure and holy as possible and as charitable as possible, the believer is expected to strive for those things as hard as possible. (If they fail they are forgiven) Striving for those things is not "works", it's just part of being a Christ follower.(1 Peter 1:15-16, 1 John 3:3) Read the entire thread, this has all been covered. Much the the apathy in the Body of Christ is caused because Christians do not bother to (or want to) distinguish between "works of faith" and "works of the flesh." "Works of faith" are a testimony to our love for Jesus. "Works of the flesh" are arrogance in action, attempts to earn grace and salvation, which only come through faith. True faith of Biblical proportions causes a man to act, and it causes him to run the race all out. (Hebrews 6:12, Hebrews 13:7, Hebrews 11)

No person has said that anyone is saved by faith in baptism. I do not believe that is an honest appraisal of what has been said, nor do I believe that any reasonable person could come to that conclusion based what has been written. I have stated over and over that being baptized is being obedient.

Justified by faith in what or who Dave, and please provide me a scripture reference. Grace to you, Faith in God's Word and we have already spoken of that Faith speaking to Abraham of God's Son, the Messiah. Joh

OK. Who said the faith was in the actions? Not I. As I have over and over and over if you love Him obey Him. Loving Him and obeying Him is how we live out our faith. "You are saved by Faith alone" is an incomplete statement. Don't we need to repent? See the problem with you just saying "You are saved by Faith alone" is that you have not defined true Biblical faith that causes men to build arks, and allow themselves to be thrown into a furnace. It's a simplistic statement, that is made by many, that does not lead men and women to become fully devoted Christ followers bent on living holy and righteous lives. It is the cause of apathy in the church. Instead of spending hours arguing about whether or not Baptism is necessary you need to understand the enormity of what our faith requires of us and once you have that understanding, you will understand that yes we have to be baptized, if humanly possible, or we will not be saved. Why? Because it is disobedience and disobedience is damning evidence of faith that does not save.

Justified by faith in what or who Dave, and please provide me a scripture reference.

How then can we believe God when He say's believe on the name of Jesus and you will be saved? Ro

There are only differing covenants and differences in what is believed in. No person, in the older covenant was told "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved" All of those who believe in Jesus and who have (or had) Biblical faith have the same standing before God. Grace to you, So Abraham's standing before God is different than ours? In what way, can you explain? I believe that Jseus Himself that we should believe God that we should put Faith in His Word and that His Word was this revelation that Christ isGod. I also believe that Patriarchs like Abraham believd God and were looking forward to the day of the Messiah, even Moses said as much. Joh

There are only differing covenants and differences in what is believed in. No person, in the older covenant was told "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved" All of those who believe in Jesus and who have (or had) Biblical faith have the same standing before God. Grace to you, So Abraham's standing before God is different than ours? In what way, can you explain? I believe that Jseus Himself that we should believe God that we should put Faith in His Word and that His Word was this revelation that Christ isGod. I also believe that Patriarchs like Abraham believd God and were looking forward to the day of the Messiah, even Moses said as much. Joh

We all know that Jesus is just and righteous. If a person has no opportunity to be baptized then He knows their hearts, don't you think? But, you do bring up a good point, "person who accepts Christ as their personal savior but doesn't decide to get baptized until 2 months later is not saved." Only Jesus can know if that person was like the foolish virgins or not. (Matthew 25)

The Thief died under the New Covenant. He died AFTER Jesus said, "it is finished." The New Covenant was cut in the blood of Jesus. The Old Covenant system was finished in the death of Jesus. Furthermore, if baptism were required for salvation under the NT, there would be an OT type or shadow to indicate such a change. There would have been an OT prophetic word to that end. All New Testament as OT doctrinal counterparts. So, any doctrine that demands baptism as necessary for salvation in the New Covenant would have to have an Old Testament counterpart. No such counterpart exists for the assertion that baptism is required for salvation. We are saved by the death AND resurrection of Christ. Death was not defeated till Jesus was resurrected. The New Covenant would not exist if Jesus had not been raised from the dead. Romans 4:25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification. That has already been addressed. Read 1st Peter or read this thread. Are you we do not need to be obedient to Jesus or scripture,(scripture says be baptized) that we are saved even if we live in rebellion to Jesus?

Salvation is already complete. Jesus paid it all. It has nothing to do with how we live our lives except that our lives are a reflection of the salvation we have received. We can do nothing to add completeness to what Jesus has already provided. Hebrews 12:14, says we must also live holy lives. "Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." In Matthew 10:22 Jesus said we must endure to the end. All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. James 2:14 says we must have the kind of faith that causes us to have good works in our lives. What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? We can only be righteous before God if we have been washed in the Blood of the Lamb and only if we live our life in obedience. Jesus said those who love me, obey me.

There are only differing covenants and differences in what is believed in. No person, in the older covenant was told "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved" All of those who believe in Jesus and who have (or had) Biblical faith have the same standing before God.

not sure i want to get into this debate, but i do have a question about this statement. what was john the baptist's ministry prior to the resurrection? wasn't he telling people to be baptized? Yes he did tell people to be baptized. Even those who received John's Baptism had to believe in the resurrection of Jesus. If a person was baptized by John, but did not believe in Jesus they were not saved. John was introducing the covenant of atonement by the Blood of Jesus.

There is no difference between the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testamentnor the God of the new Covenant and the God of the Old. Heb

I agree with everything that you say. Our God is just and righteous. If a person has no opportunity to obey a command of Jesus then He will be just won't he? I have faith that God knows who does and does not want to obey Him. It is our faith that saves us. But saving faith must be defined mustn't it? And that is why Hebrews 11 was written, it gives us examples of our fore fathers in the faith and it it show that each had deeds that demonstrated their faith. If Rahab had not thrown a scarlet ribbon out of her window, she and her family would have not been saved. If Noah did not build an ark, he and his family would not have been saved. If Israel had not sprinkled blood, as they were instructed to, they would not have been saved from the destroyer. These are examples of people living by faith. We Christians love to say "saved by faith", I fear there will be many people who go to hell because they did not have Godly, scriptural faith. We need to be more responsible and teach what real Biblical faith is.

First off we must look at all of scripture to see the entire salvation picture. Luke 7:50 Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace." Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith

The thief on the cross died under the old covenant. No person who died prior to the beginning of the New Covenant (after the resurrection) was told to be Baptized. If you read this in context you see that Paul was speaking about Judaizers who were trying to convince Christians they need to be circumcised. When Paul used the word "works", he was referring to obeying the Law of Moses. In the next verse Paul wrote "10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." We are raised with Christ to obey Him, show the fruit of the Spirit and bear our own fruit. If a person does not bear fruit they will not be saved. Matthew 3:8-10

Yawn