cwcrenshaw

I claim that they do and you can not prove that they do not!...ok I'm just messin

mmm SoCo and Coke....good man.

Why don't we all just stick to our little comfort bubbles and not ever have conversations with anyone else then? The whole point of debate is to share ideas and be able to defend your position. I'm sorry if this is intimidating to you but this is a thread for atheists....so I figured that this would be an appropriate place for my ideas. I am not going to post in a thread where my ideas are completely unsolicited...I addressed this in my introduction (worthy welcome board) and also on my profile. It seems that everyone is happy to raise their own points and debate with me until I begin raising questions that aren't so easy to answer. The truth is, atheists are the most hated minority group in this country (by "this country" i mean USA, where I assume most of the members are from)...more than gays, more than muslims, more than anyone...and this is due primarily to incorrect stereotypes. The only way to correct stereotypes is to have a dialogue...and I doubt you would come to an atheist board to try to start a polite conversation. I'm not trying to impose on your beliefs or say that you are wrong...but I do have the right to raise my ideas when people are genuinely interested in them. This thread is called "survey for atheists" and is basically asking about our beliefs....so don't get upset when I lay those beliefs out and explain how it is that I came to them. You will not see me posting in a thread called "survey for christians" for example. edit: about my signature, "friendly neighborhood atheist" is just a pun, goes against the stereotype that atheists are devil-posseseed, baby killing demons. Shows that we are friendly and hospitable. The quote is self explanatory.

I consider this to be evidence of millions of years of evolution. We are all made of DNA, as is every other living thing on this planet...all DNA is made up of the same 4 building blocks (another during DNA replication, but I digress)...point is, this consistency indicates a common source....you see that source as God, I see it as a common evolutionary source. That is fine. But the question I pose is...why would God need to make every living thing out of the same 4 building blocks? seems to me to be stronger evidence of a common evolutionary source.

You have not addressed the more basic question of....If God set things up for us to question, won't we then question? If so, then it is designed for some to fail...this is not evidence of an all-loving God. And if, as you say, I am looking at this the wrong way and that all people are in fact meant to be saved...then how can God not allow people at least the chance to be saved? (i.e. infants that die a few days into life, kids that have cancer, etc)...again this is evidence that not everyone is meant to be saved. Of course you will probably say that the devil is responsible for sickness and death before someone has had a chance to be saved...but then that raises the question of God's omnipotence. If he really was omnipotent and all powerful, he would have the power to prevent this from happening. This leaves 2 possibilities....either A) he is not in fact omnipotent...or B) he is omnipotent, but allows this to happen anyway. Of course I go with option C...that there is no god, goodness lives in the brotherhood of man, and disease/death are caused by viruses and bacteria that effect all living things on earth. Well I suppose he could, but this clashes with free-will...if I wanted to rewrite the bible to better suit me...would God intervene? or would this be considered free-will? I would agree that we all have a sort of "law" built into us...whether or not this is God's law is the point i would take issue with. All over the world you will find very few cultures where murder, rape, etc are considered to be ok...there is evidence that there are an engrained set of morals in us all. I would postulate that this is an evolutionary trait for the simple fact that any prehistoric tribe that considered murder to be ok would obviously not survive very long...only those groups who viewed it as wrong ( by "wrong" i mean that it does not propogate their own existence) would carry on and so eventually we look back and say "hey, we all think that murder is wrong...how can this be?" As for it being God's Law....apparently he missed a few of us for I have no desire whatsoever to seek Him. I am perfectly content and intellectually fulfilled with my understanding of the world and have confidence that mankind controls his own existence. But why would he do this in the first place? Why create human beings simply for the task of testing their belief? Did he create us just so we would worship him? Was he bored? I don't mean to sound rude but these are questions that need to be answered.

I am here to debate...part of debating is asking tough questions and not simply submitting to the other side without any evidence. If you are confident in your position on any issue, you should be able to endure some tough questioning. It's unfortunate to see you throw up your hands in frustration instead of adequately attempting to answer some very basic questions.

oh boy, where to start. Of course I would view the issue through man's eyes, as do you. You are exactly right though that man wants to feel significant and feel as if his planet was the largest and most important in the Universe...this is exactly my point..it is not about what one "wants to feel". You have stated several times that the Universe exists for the benefit of man...that man is the purpose of God creating the universe...and now your saying the opposite that "[that is] just not how God operates". So you are saying that all this universe is created with us in mind but deliberately made in such a way to fool into thinking it is not? Seems to me that if God wanted to setup the universe "so as to give you the best possibility of gaining salvation", he would have done it in a way that does not inheritently question his very existence. Moreover, if God did setup the universe in a way to make us naturally question his existence...wouldn't it be rather vengeful to send someone to hell to burn forever because he did question? Surely if God designed the universe in a way to make us question then we would in fact question...because God is supposedly perfect so of course it would work as he designed it....this obviously then is setup to ensure that some will fail and that not everyone is meant to be saved. Logic is rather harsh sometimes. nothing constructive to add here. Just because you don't believe it doesn't make it a lie. If I were to call everything that I don't believe a lie then you would be rather offended. I see error of doing so though and wouldn't want to offend you anyway. I wonder if you could do the same. The fact that we have seasons has nothing to do with where we are in the universe, it has to do with our orbit relative to the sun and the tilt of our axis. I just hope those "new eyes" don't blur your vision Suppose you are right that God's thoughts are much higher than yours or mine. How then can we trust a Bible that has been revised, edited, interpreted and written over and over again by man to be exactly true to the thoughts and intentions of God? Well, Don't forget that these "folks in far off lands" are often savage to each other BECAUSE of superstition. Accusations of possession, evil spirits, "your invisible man doesnt resemble my invisible man", etc. As for man being cold and savage without God...that is completely unfounded. Suppose tomorrow you were to discover undiable proof that God is not real...would you immediately go out and be savage and cold to everyone you meet? If no...this shows that man is respectful of eachother and other life without the requirement that god exists. If yes...then once again, I encourage you to continue believing. This logic is outstanding. God created me so that I would be forced to submit to him or face the penalty of hell. I grow stronger in my Atheism by the moment.

First, to answer your question.....of course it does not offend me, it simply is absurd to me. How can I be offended by something that I don't accept to be true? Secondly, you're missing the entire point I'm making about the relative size of our planet to the rest of the universe. It would be an equivalent of a grain of sand in the sahara thinking that the desert existed exclusively for it. No, its not how I believe God see's me...because obviously I don't believe in God at all. Moreover, it is not a lie, it has been measured and verified many times over the universe is unfathomably larger than we are...there is nothing to debate there. What is to say that this planet and solar system is placed perfectly? Of course some would think that because we have no basis for comparison. For all you know, we could be in the dullest and most insignificant place in the universe and think it was "just great" because we have always been here. It means nothing to me when you say something is "quite Biblical". To answer your questions though...of course I hope, everyone does...but I do not base what I believe to be true about the universe on what I "hope" is true. Rather, the basis for my beliefs (or non-belief) is based upon the world I see around me. My viewpoints on evolution have nothing to do with my outlook on life...in fact, I consider myself very lucky to be alive and I treasure every moment I have. I value my life and yours and every living creature on this planet not because I believe that God created us...but because we are all that we have. It's sad to me to think that you believe that without God, life is has no inherent value. This comes to a question of morality and if you need God to tell you that killing, rape, etc are wrong then I would strongly advise you continue believing. Again, how "harsh" something is does not affect how true something is. You are confusing the ability to look at the wonderment of the universe with the facts about the universe. Thanks for the Carl Sagan reference though one of my favorites. (We do not allow youtube links here for various reasons. ) Yes, I am familiar with the situation. Still...how is this merciful?

I agree there is "order" in the universe. The way objects of smaller mass orbit objects of greater mass is exactly what we would expect to see due to gravity. There is order in the respect that things are bound by the laws of the nature (gravity, strong force, weak force, etc)....this is a far cry from saying that the universe has "order" due to a supreme being controlling every event. On your second point, I would have to strongly disagree with you that the universe was created for the enjoyment of mankind. When you look at the size of the universe compared to size of our planet (or galaxy for that matter)...we don't even register...we are microscopic at best. The constellations are not shapes or patterns, they are only how we see a few distant stars from one particular (and might I add, insignificant) point in space. If we were to be in another position in space, the stars we see might actually look to spell out something or draw a picture...but this too would be mere coincidence. To say that the universe was created with us in mind is...well....a little conceited at best. Maybe those aren't the best words to use....the point is, if the universe was created by God then it would be perfect and not the malevolent and violent void that it is. No, I don't see how sending someone to die is merciful. That's all I will say about that.

Fine...but for a second imagine....and I know this might be tough....a universe without a god. What would that theoritical universe look like? The vast majority (something like 99.9999...%) would probably be uninhabitable due to extreme conditions not suitable for life as we know it. There would be utter chaos in this universe where stars explode, blackholes devour everything in their path, and cosmic events happen where the destruction is incomprehensible with no sign that compassion and mercy were any part of the equation. Then you realize that this describes our own universe. The point is....the known universe that we perceive is exactly what we would expect to see in a universe without a God. As for the rest of your post, there is no point of me trying to debate you about Bible verses. Logic and reasoning are much more convincing.

I don't think it is a matter of "how smart" someone thinks they are. The fact that atheists do not believe in a higher power is based on a lack of evidence...not because we believe ourselves to be too smart to believe in a creator. The fact that the existence of a god is not scientifically verifiable is not insignificant. If any entity does not have an effect in the world we perceive (therefore scientifically verifiable), then it means nothing to say that said entity does in fact exist. If i had a box that i told you contained a substance that cannot be measured by scientific means (i.e. has no perceptible attributes)....then what is the difference between that box and an empty box?