Isa

Revelation is a book of prophecy. Why are the readers back then supposed to understand the metaphores? Quite right. The revelation was penned in the same century as that of the Olivette discourse of Matt chapter 24 and luke 21, in fact only about 60 years between. Revelation is prophesy projected ahead at least 1900 years, when Rome is just another capital city in the world today. Incorrect. Revelation was written specifically to meet a need of the seven churches to which it was addressed, to wit, encouragement. Revelation was not just written to the churches of Johns time it was written to all the Lords servants. Revelation 1 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants

Revelation is a book of prophecy. Why are the readers back then supposed to understand the metaphores? Quite right. The revelation was penned in the same century as that of the Olivette discourse of Matt chapter 24 and luke 21, in fact only about 60 years between. Revelation is prophesy projected ahead at least 1900 years, when Rome is just another capital city in the world today. Incorrect. Revelation was written specifically to meet a need of the seven churches to which it was addressed, to wit, encouragement. Revelation was not just written to the churches of Johns time it was written to all the Lords servants. Revelation 1 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants

So Satan comes on a horse representing purity and victory. Sorry, but I can't seem to find any verses in the Bible which say that Satan is either pure or victorious. In each case the horse and its rider are one, therefore Satan could not be one with a horse that represents purity or victory. Even pre-tribbers know that. The rider on the white horse brings in false peace he conquers without having to fight. This person also breaks that covenant half way through and causes war against God's people. There is only one who has always attacked God's people and that is Satan, so who ever is on this angel of light (horse) will be a power of darkness at the mid point. He will be given power by the Dragon himself. So whoever it is he is Anti------Christ if he is not for Christ he is Anti------Christ.

at least you're honest That is not what he said ,he said I rebuke you satan you have no control over me and my mind. Don't be nasty it is unbecoming of a christian to taunt one another.

Hi faithfulwitness, That wasn't a very good witness at all, love your brother and correct them with love.

I am sorry you feel that way but I will not bend to make scripture say what you want it to say. If it was true and it was saying the church would be protected through the tribulation and the rapture would be after the tribulation I would agree. I am not affraid to die for what I believe and I am not affraid to defend what the bible says. It does not under any curcumstances say that the church will still be here through the tribualtion. Once again I will not deny the truth of the word.

Yes these verses speek of protection of God's people but it doesn't say anything about His chuirch being protected during the tribulation. I am protected now from the fiery darts of Satan and all I have is the armour of God and that is all need. God is our shield, our Shepard, our Father, our everything and He alone prtects us from the evil one. You would think Satan would get sick of quoting scriptures. He miss used these exact scriptures when he was quoting to the Lord in the wilderness. Psalm 91:11 11 For He shall give His angels charge over you, To keep you in all your ways. Yes I have to say this is speaking of Israel taking protection not the church. Revelation 12:6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days. Revelation 12:14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. Daniel 12 Prophecy of the End Time 1

It couldn't have been. The Roman Catholic church, as such, was at least another two hundred years into the future; John and his readers would not have had a clue. On the other hand, John's readers understood immediately that the whore was a metaphor for the Roman empire of their own day. Would you mind clarifying that statement. Which of John's readers would not have had a clue, and which of John's readers understood immediately that the whore is a metaphore? sorry, but I am at a loss to what you mean. None of John's reader's nor John himself would have had any knowledge about the Roman Catholic church. What we, 1900+ years later, recognize as the Roman Catholic church had yet to develop at the time of John's writing. On the other hand, John's readers understood immediately that the whore was a metaphor for the pagan Roman empire of their own day. The book was written during the reign of Domitian, around A.D.96. We must remember also that John is having a revelation from the all knowing, all powerfull, omnipresent God. o God has given John the revelation of what he knows to be the Roman Empire who headed off the church, also known to us as the Roman catholic church

"kept from the hour of trial"...plain english it's pretty hard to be kept from something when you're right in the middle of it you can only be proven wrong, give your silly (and evil) crusade a rest, man As christains and brothers we do not have to down grade each other we correct in love not belittling others. God is the only one allowed to repay with anger not us, if we judge then we are saying we are better than others. We are not we are all in the same boat we are forgiven sinners, so we need to show brotherly love. We don't have to agree even if there is one right, it is up to God to convince the heart of the one who is wrong not us as individuals. We are the messangers so let's deliver with the love for each other that God has given us. Let's not be Pharisees I agree Isa we should do nothing in anger but some brothers''such as yourself and wordoftruth''refuse correction,and as true ambassadors of God's kingdom I as well as Toni should have righteous anger at others such as you two that spread satans lies What makes you say that what I have posted is wrong I have used scripture from both old and new testaments to support the word of God. Yet you support what you believe with only the new testament. Scripture interprets scripture not man. 2 Peter 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, Unless you can back your scriptures up with the old testament aswell then I will believe what God has shown me. Thank you kindly for your advice and challenging words. The old testament shows the saints returning with the Lord at His coming and no they have not been raptured and then come back because then you would have to say that those who were on the earth would have to be only the wicked. We know this is not so Zechariah clearly says the Lord will save Judah first and bring them into Jerusalem, speaking of the earthly Jerusalem not the heavenly Jerusalem, and then He judges the wicked and Judah shall also fight at Jerusalem. So I am sorry my friend I do not spread satan's lies either.

Revelation 17:18 - "The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth. Yes the city is Rome and where does the false prophet come from Rome Scarlet woman (city)Scarlet Beast (Prophet). Quite interesting if you ask me. I believe you can pin point the city and where the false prophet comes from. Daniel 9:26 26

No it doesn't say it has just been slain, it says as though it had been slain. It shows He has over come and God's purposes can now be revealed. It's alright to use extra-biblical sources I was just saying they are not inspired like the word of God is, and man has been known to be wrong som times, that includes myself.

Revelation 6:3 Second Seal: Conflict on Earth 3 When He opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying,

Revelation 17:18 - "The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth. Yes the city is Rome and where does the false prophet come from Rome Scarlet woman (city)Scarlet Beast (Prophet). Quite interesting if you ask me. I believe you can pin point the city and where the false prophet comes from. Daniel 9:26 26

"kept from the hour of trial"...plain english it's pretty hard to be kept from something when you're right in the middle of it you can only be proven wrong, give your silly (and evil) crusade a rest, man As christains and brothers we do not have to down grade each other we correct in love not belittling others. God is the only one allowed to repay with anger not us, if we judge then we are saying we are better than others. We are not we are all in the same boat we are forgiven sinners, so we need to show brotherly love. We don't have to agree even if there is one right, it is up to God to convince the heart of the one who is wrong not us as individuals. We are the messangers so let's deliver with the love for each other that God has given us. Let's not be Pharisees

"kept from the hour of trial"...plain english it's pretty hard to be kept from something when you're right in the middle of it you can only be proven wrong, give your silly (and evil) crusade a rest, man You are putting words into scripture that are not there, my friend. That's cheating. Keep from the hour of trial in no way implies a pre-tribulation secret rapture. "kept from the hour of trial" is in the Scriptures. Actually, no Ovedya that is not what the scriptures say. Revelation 3:10 reads:Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall lcome upon alll the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Pre-tribbers rewrite the scripture to say: "Because thou has kept the word of my patience, I also will secretly rapture you off the earth so you can escape the hour of temptation which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." Who ever said that God HAD to take us out of this world to "keep us from the our of temptation" anyway. When there were flies in Egypt there were non in Goshen, when the water turned to blood in Egypt the water in Goshen tasted sweet and was clear, when there were frogs in Egypt there were non in Goshen and when the angel of death came calling it was the blood of the Lamb that kept the people of God from the hour of death and God didn't have to take them anywhere to protect them. We really shouldn,t be putting God in a box that limits His power and ability to keep His promise. Could you please tell me where that verse is because I am a pre-tribber and I haven't seen it written that way. I have seen in both old and new testament that shows that the church is taken out of away from raptured up to the heavens to be with the Lord. Yet as I said before we only get a part of the bible teachings with the post-tribbers, don't you have the old testament in your bibles when it comes to the rapture. When we read the bible we can't just pluck out what makes our believes sound good. The Bible is not for private interpretation, the Bible interprets itself. 2 Peter 1:19-21 19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

bingo. it boils down to replacement theology: those who reject the removal of the Church prior to Daniel's 70th Week apparently believe the Church has inherited the calling and commission of Israel during the Tribulation, they also apparently believe the 144,000 Jews of Revelation 7 represent the Church! how they come up with these ideas utterly baffles me, but they aren't Biblical the structure of Revelation, even world history itself over the last 100 years clearly tells you God isn't finished with His chosen race, it's literally mile high writing on the wall, but some in the Church still like to think it's all about us...isn't that just plain old PRIDE? I don't know if it is pride or just plain blindness. Pharoahs heart was hardened so that God's will could be accomplished. Just as the Israelites hearts were hardened so that we the under dogs could be grafted onto that precious loving vine. We are told not to be proud because we can be taken off the vine just as quick. Romans 11:16- 16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. God has also said if they believe in their Messiah they will be grafted back into the precious vine. Romans 11:23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. John19:37 37 And again another Scripture says,

Satan is also parades around as an angel of light and he is bringing a false peace with him. 2 Corinthians 11:14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. This rider is not the Lord, and it is not the gospel message because it does not bring false peace to its believers or a false hope. The rider of the white horse goes out to conquer the nations. He is able to do this with a covenant of peace, this peace that he brings will only last for 3 1/2 yrs and then he will break the covenant. Then enters the second horse who takes peace from the earth. Daniel 9:27 27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.

Yes the great white throne judgment is after the millennial kingdom. Those who were cast into hades from the tribulation period will be judged before the great white throne. For the sea gave up its dead, death and hades are the last ones to give up their dead and then death and hades are cast into the lake of fire. I have the word of God and it tells me who goes into the millennial period, I have given you scripture to support what I have believe is written aswell. The pre-trib rapture is not a farce it is truth straight out of the word of God. It is a farce to those who do not understand what is written by God. God has sent us a Savior to save us from His wrath and it is through Jesus Christ we find salvation. God's wrath is poured out on the wicked from the start of the tribulation. The seven seals, seven trumpets and seven bowl judgments are all played out by the hand of Christ the Lamb when He takes the scroll from the Fathers hand who is sitting on the throne. Christ or the Lamb as He is called removes the seals, it is the Lambs actions that brings about what happens in the seals, He opens the scroll and the first seal is opened. What happens next is because of the Lambs actions as I said and this goes on until the final judgment of mankind. The word of God says we as His children (church, bride) will find salvation through Jesus Christ and we shall be saved from these events. Whether one believes this or not our salvation doesn't depend on that, it depends on our belief in Jesus Christ and what He has done for us on the cross. 1 Thessalonians 5:8-10 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. We are not appointed to the wrath to come and those who are asleep (dead) in hrist are not appointed to wrath either, we all will be raptured and will be given our resurrected bodies when He appears to take us home. 2 Timothy 4:7-9 2 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing. Hebrews 9:27-28 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Revelation 3:10 10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. We will be taken b4 the tribulation and we will return with Him in His glory, which is our glory. Colossians 3:4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory. 1 Thessalonians 3:12-13 12 And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love to one another and to all, just as we do to you, so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints. Where are we established and and our hearts seen blameless before God. At the wedding of the Lamb we are established as being righteous and we are given our bridal gown which is pure white washed clean in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 19:7-9 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.

due to site not opening

I have one thing to add to this post. When Judas Iscariote was one of the disciples he was not called the son of perdition until Satan had entered him and he went of and sold the Lord for 30 pieces of silver. Just as the one who brings peace is not filled with Satan until it is time for him to cease the sacrifices and set himself up in the temple as God. They both became sons of perdition.

Yes the great white throne judgment is after the millennial kingdom. Those who were cast into hades from the tribulation period will be judged before the great white throne. For the sea gave up its dead, death and hades are the last ones to give up their dead and then death and hades are cast into the lake of fire. I have the word of God and it tells me who goes into the millennial period, I have given you scripture to support what I have believe is written aswell. The pre-trib rapture is not a farce it is truth straight out of the word of God. It is a farce to those who do not understand what is written by God. God has sent us a Savior to save us from His wrath and it is through Jesus Christ we find salvation. God's wrath is poured out on the wicked from the start of the tribulation. The seven seals, seven trumpets and seven bowl judgments are all played out by the hand of Christ the Lamb when He takes the scroll from the Fathers hand who is sitting on the throne. Christ or the Lamb as He is called removes the seals, it is the Lambs actions that brings about what happens in the seals, He opens the scroll and the first seal is opened. What happens next is because of the Lambs actions as I said and this goes on until the final judgment of mankind. The word of God says we as His children (church, bride) will find salvation through Jesus Christ and we shall be saved from these events. Whether one believes this or not our salvation doesn't depend on that, it depends on our belief in Jesus Christ and what He has done for us on the cross. 1 Thessalonians 5:8-10 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. We are not appointed to the wrath to come and those who are asleep (dead) in hrist are not appointed to wrath either, we all will be raptured and will be given our resurrected bodies when He appears to take us home. 2 Timothy 4:7-9 2 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing. Hebrews 9:27-28 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Revelation 3:10 10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. We will be taken b4 the tribulation and we will return with Him in His glory, which is our glory. Colossians 3:4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory. 1 Thessalonians 3:12-13 12 And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love to one another and to all, just as we do to you, so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints. Where are we established and and our hearts seen blameless before God. At the wedding of the Lamb we are established as being righteous and we are given our bridal gown which is pure white washed clean in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 19:7-9 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.

2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. John 6:39-54 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Luke 17:26-30 26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. I believe the above verse is talking about the second coming of the Son of Man not His appearing to gather His church to Him. Once again proof positive on how pretribbers view scripture(I BELIEVE this or that)instead of what scripture says. Actually she/he has this one right it is talking the 2nd coming the problem is the scripture plainly states that it is at the very time that he removes us not 7yrs or 3.5 yrs or the day b4. vs 29 BUT ON THE SAME DAY lot went out of sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed the all,vs 30 EVEN SO will it be when the son of man is revealed. If Isa believes this is at the post trib 2nd coming as she claims then they them selves have just proven post trib rapture. The problem is the is no ''secret rapture'' or separate appearing to gather the church,out side of the 2nd coming it self in scripture. It has to be force there with no scriptural backing. When I have said to others at times the scriptures says, they did not like it for they thought I was dictating to them. Obviously you would prefer me to say the scriptures says, well I will say that for you if that makes you happy, but you must realize this aswell I believe what the scriptures say. You quote the scripture to me but you are misinterpreting the scripture. vs 29 BUT ON THE SAME DAY lot went out of sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed the all,vs 30 EVEN SO will it be when the son of man is revealed. Lets have a look at the scripture you have quoted here and what it is talking about. Luke 17:28-30 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. The above verse does not prove a post trib rapture it proves that Christ is returning to judge the wicked and to fullfill the promises God made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They would be given the land as an eternal possession. Which they do receive in the millennial kingdom. No rapture of saints here sorry. This verse as I have said many times before is talking about the return of Jesus Christ at His second coming, He gathers out the wicked from the earth and leaves the righteous ones. These righteous ones are made up of the 144,000, the tribe of Judah and the nations that believed in the testamony of the 144,000 etc etc etc. The church is not included in this verse,and there is once again no rapture of saints, for the righteous ones go alive unchanged into the millennial kingdom. The church has been raptured b4 the seven year tribulation starts because God did not appoint them to wrath. They return with Christ the Lamb, their Lord and savior and reign with Him with the tribulation saints for the millennial period. Zechariah 14:5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the LORD my God will come, And all the saints with You. Revelation 19:11-16 11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: I think the Bible is quite clear on who comes with the Lord when He returns and the only way they can come with Him is if they had been raptured b4 the tribulation. Hense a pre-trib rapture. And if you want to know who the armies of the Lrd are they consist of the bride and the tribulation saints and also the angels who gather the elect to one place for the Lord. Revelation 9:7-9 7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.

Mark 13:24-27 The Coming of the Son of Man 24

We need to add the beast because the beast plays a major part with the harlot. Lets have a look Revelation 17:7-18 7 But the angel said to me,