getat151

wow this is still going on? look at the mess i started lol.

ARE THE ARABS THE DESCENDANTS OF ISHMAEL? DR. ROBERT MOREY Introduction The Middle East will never have peace until the above question is honestly answered according to the historical facts. Myths and legends are fine as stories for children but in the real world we must have facts and documentation. Part One The Arab Claim The Arabs' claim to the land of Israel rest entirely on three false assumptions: 1. All Arabs are the descendants of Abraham through Ishmael. 2. Ishmael and his descendants were included in the covenant God made with Abraham. 3. Since the Abrahamic convenant included the land of Israel, the Arabs have a legitimate claim to it. Ten Historical Facts 1. According to the Torah, when Abraham left Ur of the Chaldees, he went West to what is now called Israel (Gen. 12 ff.). He became a dweller in tents in that land. It was in Israel that God made a covenant with him for the land in which he was living at that time. It was in Israel that he fathered Isaac, Ishmael, and many other sons and daughters. Isaac was the only son of Abraham chosen by God to be the heir of the covenant. Abraham took Isaac to Mt. Moriah to be offered up as a sacrifice to God. 2. The Torah is contradicted by Qur'an at nearly every point. According to Surah 2:119-121, Abraham and Ishmael did not dwell in tents in Israel, but in the city of Mecca in Arabia. Together they rebuilt the Kabah and placed the black stone in the wall. It was Abraham who started the tradition of an annual pilgrimage to Mecca, throwing stones at the devil, etc. Abraham took Ishmael (not Isaac) to nearby Mt. Mina to offer as a sacrifice to God. 3. Ishmael's twelve sons were named Nebaioth, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah. (Gen. 12:11-16) They intermarried with the local population in North Arabia and produced several nomadic tribes know as the "Ishmaelites." 4. It was prophesied in the Torah that Ishmael and his family would "live to the East of all his brothers." (Gen. 16:12) "And they settled from Havilah to Shur which is east of Egypt as one goes toward Assyria." (Gen 25:18) This broad area is the desert section East of Egypt in Northern Arabia toward the kingdom of the Assyrians. 5. The Ishmaelites are mentioned as a distinct tribe in the Assyrian records. They later intermarried with and were absorbed by the Midianites and other local tribes. In Gen. 37:25-28; 39:1, the Ishmaelites are called the Midianites and in Judges 8:22-24 cf. 7:1f, the Midianites are called the Ishmaelites. The identification cannot be made any stronger. 6. Arabia was already populated by the descendants of Cush and Shem long before Abraham or Ishmael were born (Gen. 10:7). Their cities and temples have been well-documented by archeologists. 7. If all the Arab people descended from Ishmael as Muhammad claimed, where did all the original Arabs go? What happened to them? Who did Ishmael marry if the Arabs did not already exist? If Arabia was unpopulated, who built Mecca? Since he lived there, obviously it existed before he was born. The facts speak for themselves. The Arab people existed before, during, and after Ishmael moved started roaming the wilderness of North Arabia. 8. The descendants of Ishmael were scattered in Northern Arabia from the wilderness of Shur to the ancient city of Havilah. They were absorbed by the local tribes such as the Midianites (Gen. 37:25-28; 39:1; Judges 8:24). There is no historical or archeological evidence that Ishmael went south to Mecca and became the "Father" of the Arab race. Some modern Arab scholars admit that before Muhammad, Qahtan was said to be the "Father" of the Arab people, not Ishmael. 9. The Abrahamic Covenant was given only to Isaac and to his descendants. Ishmael and the other sons of Abraham were explicitly excluded by God from having any part of the covenant made with Abraham. (Gen. 18:18-21) 10. Therefore the descendants of Ishmael and the other sons of Abraham do not have any claim to the land of Israel because they are not included in the covenant God made with Abraham. Only the Jews have any claim to the land of Israel. Part Two Islam's Claim Muslims like to claim that Islam give them the right to claim the land of Israel as their own. This claim rests upon two false assumptions: 1. All Arabs are the descendants of Ishmael; 2. Muhammad went to Jerusalem. Three Historical Facts 1. The first assumption has already been proven false. The Arab people are not all the descendants of Ishmael and hence they are not the heirs of the Patriarchs, the prophets, the Scriptures or the land of Israel. 2. The claim that Muhammad went to Jerusalem is false. According to the Qur'an and the Hadith, Muhammad had a dream in the middle of the night in which he traveled through the sky, visited seven heavens, met great people like Jesus, and visited the Jerusalem. Since this was only a dream, he was never actually in Jerusalem. The Mosque on the temple site in Jerusalem is a hoax built on the lie that Muhammad stood on the site. 3. Nowhere in the Qur'an does it state that Ishmael is the progenitor of the Arab race. Since it is not taught in the Qur'an, it cannot be a true Islamic belief. Conclusion The Arab people are not the children of Ishmael. Even if they were, they would still have no claim to Israel because Ishmael was excluded by God Himself from having any part in the covenant made with Abraham. Isaac was the only heir of the Abrahamic covenant. Thus the Arabs as a people have no claim to the land of Israel. The Muslims have no claim to the land of Israel either. Muhammad never went to Jerusalem except in a dream. The only ones with a spiritual and biblical claim to the land of Israel are the descendants of Isaac, the Jews. Documentation "Arabian literature has its own version of prehistoric times, but it is entirely legendary." (Encyclopedia Britannica, Vol. 2:176) "The pure Arabs are those who claim to be descended from Joktan or Qahtan, whom the present Arabs regard as their principle founder...The 'Arabu 'l-Musta'ribah, the mixed Arabs, claim to be descended from Ishmael.they boast as much as the Jews of being reckoned the children of Abraham. This circumstance will account for the preference with which they uniformly regard this branch of their pedigree, and for the many romantic legends they have grafted upon it...The Arabs, in their version of Ishmael's history, have mixed a great deal of romance with the narrative of Scripture." (A Dictionary of Islam, pgs. 18-19) "Muhammad was not informed about the family of Abraham." (Encyclopedia of Islam) I: 184. See also pages 544-546. "There is a prevalent notion that the Arabs, both of the south and north, are descended from Ishmael; and the passage in Gen. xvi.12, "he (Ishmael) shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren," is often cited as if it were a prediction of that national independence which, upon the whole, the Arabs have maintained more than any other people. But this supposition is founded on a misconception of the original Hebrew, which runs literally, "he shall before the faces of all his brethren," i.e., (according to the idiom above explained, in which "before the face" denotes the east), the habitation of his posterity shall be "to the east" of the settlements of Abraham's' other descendants...These prophecies found their accomplishment in the fact of the sons of Ishmael being located, generally speaking to the east of the other descendants of Abraham, whether of Sara or of Keturah. But the idea of the southern Arabs being of the posterity of Ishmael is entirely without foundation, and seems to have originated in the tradition invented by Arab vanity that they, as well as the Jews, are of the seed of Abraham--a vanity which, besides disfiguring and falsifying the whole history of the patriarch and his son Ishmael, has transferred the scene of it from Palestine to Mecca." (McClintock and Strong, Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, (Vol. I:339) In the Qur'an, "Gen. 21.17-21...are identified with Mecca." (The Concise Encyclopedia of Islam, p. 193). It also states that the Southern Arabs come from Qahtan, not Ishmael (p. 48). See also: The Encyclopedia of Religion, Vol. 7, pg. 296 where the connection between the Midianites and the Ishmaelites is noted. The Shorter Encyclopedia of Islam, pgs. 178-179. A Popular Dictionary of Islam, p. 127. shiloh my bible talks about muhhamed (founder of muslim religion) coming from ishmael's line im not debating whether all arab people are born from ishmael im speaking of the muslim nation.....which corrosponds with gods promise to hagar about ishmael.....

well i know he came from the line of ishmael but what im sayin is that if you pair that with god's promise to hagar it seems that islam what destined...not saying its a true religion just sayin it was meant to happen and predicted in the bible by god.... when god said....his hand will be against many and many against his hand and he will be the father of many nations.....

I have the NKJV Scofield study bible "Moreover Muhammed the founder of islam, whose adherents form Christianity's most difficult problem, came from the line of ishmael. Islam is the world religion which is, closest to christianity, thus it is the hardest to penetrate with the gospel of Christ." This is exactly what my study bible says..which in that respect corrosponds with the quran...im not supporting the quran im jus saying they relate on that point... so my initial questions still stands did god just predict the rise of islam? is that what he promised ishmael? and if so are they (muslims) destined for wrath because of that promise?

My study bible says that islam came from ishmael....and the quran says the same thing......and gods profecy to hagar would agree muslims are against everyone and everyone is against them..

I was doing a reading in genesis a few weeks ago and i noticed in my study bible that ishmael (abraham and hagars son) was the man whose seed started islam...muhhamed was a direct desendent from ishmael.... while hagard was praying out to god after being sent out by sarah she pleaded with god to save her son..so he answered back promising her he wood take care of ishmael and that he would be the father of many nations and his hand would be against many and many would be against him....after reading this i asked myself........ did god just predict the rise of islam? is that what he promised ishmael? and if so are they (muslims) destined for wrath because of that promise?

I believe there are things that god knows ( things that must happen according to his will) and otherthings that he possibly doesnt know.... If every choice you

Cardcaptor i dont wanna believe in predestination but what other way can u explain it.....of course it doesnt seem fair but gods ways are higher than ours and we dont understand everything...even paul said he sees through a glass dimly......only for a moment... of course it doesnt seem fair at all........maybe thats why paul said "does that make god not fair"....."who are you to judge god"..........."does the pot say to the poter why did u make me this way"....why else would paul say that if predestination wasnt the doctrin he was pushing...everything he said about predestination seems clear......i dont see any other interpretation....thats why i posted this i wanted someone to go line by line and interpret it.......

WHAT Djzed said is exactly what im saying.........i didnt choose to believe in jesus.......i heard sermon after sermon and didnt believe....then all of a sudden i felt his spirit come over me...and it was gods spirit in me that confessed jesus as my lord and savior not my personal choice.....i think god always sets out a choice...but he also says no one seeks after him...not one so...in his mercy he sends his spirit to convict and save the ones that were predestined for glorification... and in the end the ones that didnt follow god get to see they had a choice but out of there wickedness they "chose" not to belive...but if you think about it they just didnt recieve the gift of faith... this is a guess based on my interpretation of scripture............but i also see scriptures that see to go the other way.....like people that get saved then fall away....they couldnt of been predestined to get the holy spirit just to greive it right?.....so this leaves me with a bit of confusion lol...

One light you make a good point...........and i am going to take it in faith..... Mutzrein: those that are saved in my opinion are ones who are born again of the spirit of god.....and that spirit of god lives in them which confesses that jesus christ lived and died for the sacrifice of their sins.....those that are saved pur their faith in jesus christ as their lord and savior...

I appreciate your guys opinions but none of you explained the scriptures i posted....is St Paul wrong....he said some vessles are made for destruction?

Hismindinme...thank you for your reply it was most helpful..im gonna chew on what you said....and ive also read The Power of Now years ago..when i stopped going to church to try out other religions or philosophies...its a good book..but without christ these new age religions are empty.....but i see where your coming from....as far as understanding living in the present and understanding the future is now

I ask this question after reading certain passages in the bible where God is suprised by an event....and most notably where god says in genesis that he regretted making man......so my qestion is how can god be all knowing but regret something and be suprised at the same time...he cant regret making something if he had the foreknowledge right? Say you know if you walk down the street and know your going to get shot but you walk down there anyway because theres a greater purpose for doing so which makes you getting shot something thats needs to be done for that purpose...how could you then regret that...youve counted the cost and made your decision.... right?

This is a question I started thinking about after coming upon some scriptures in the bible talking about predestiny...when i first started going to church we were told that being saved was a choice we were able to make..but after reading and rereading some of the epistles of paul im starting to think otherwise... Romans Chapter 9 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? There are some that would say that out of foreknowledge god knows who would accept him so he chose those but thats not what these scriptures say.....it says there are vessles (people) made for destruction..... I use to go to church and the pastor would say at the end of every sermon anyone that wants to get saved come to the altar and confess your sin and confess jesus as your personal lord and savior...i would do that and wouldnt feel any different after but the pastor is tellin me im saved now...then years later i went to church with my mom one time not even wanting to go and i was sitting there and my heart started beating fast for no reason then all of a sudden i was called up to the altar and the pastor prayed with me and all of a sudden i felt god and truely confessed him as my savior...the words just came out of my mouth....... When i look back at that moment I realize that was gods choice not mine.......i defenitly fall short and ive definetly fallen into the pit b4 but god showed his mercy on me to give me that experience.........When i look at the Gospels you see he chose matthew, peter, john, and the rest of the disciples...they didnt choose him.......even judas was destined to do what he did so the scriptures could be fulfilled.. So my question to you is freewill or predestiny...and if predestiny does that affect your view on god in anyway?

shiloh you said that the son of god is another term used to mean god....but arent angels called the sons of god back in the old testiment..i believe in genises im not trying to argue with you im jus trying to get to the bottom of this....btw we pretty much agree with eachother..what you said about jesus and the fathers relationship not having anyform of reference to us humans..is exactly what i said earlier

Damo...thants good to hear your back on track my relationship with god is not that good right now..there was a time where i was constantly walking in the spirit receiving gods wisdom and seeing his hand in my life...when i started going back to church recently i felt his presence then all of a sudden i didnt feel him anymore and i started to study more and seek him which broght me to asking these sort of questions because they have been messing with my faith as of lately.... in reguards to this debate on this thread u believe that jesus is gods son...but as far as his deity..what do you believe...im curious to know

makes sense to me........as far as lucifer referring to nebacunezzar.....so that would mean that lucifer is not satan ......correct?

Mutzrein i read post #19 and i believe it corrosponds with what ive already thought about jesus's relationship with the father.... Damo....thanx btw im not really a new christian i recieved salvation/the holy spirit when i was 15 but i walked away from it when my church fell apart and god has been pulling me back all these years but i jus now decided to go back....i cant enjoy this world....the problem is b4 i jus listened to everyone else on what the bible said and never investigated myself.....this question i posted is just one of like 5 questions that have really been bothering me....which will have me studying gods word more...and i will also be asking yo all these questions on this forum. i think that basically jesus is divine, eternal, and lord and that he was acting on gods accord and had the spirit of god in him therefore he was god to us...he was the manifestation of god...through jesus we understand who god is...without jesus we would not....just like when one is praying for another and they recieve a word of knowledge or word of profecy and speaking out of gods love, wisdom, and knowledge, jesus is speaking through that person.....jesus is in there "midst" Does this make sense??? wow this is starting to make sense lol I think god wanted us to practice the things that jesus did because through every step of that we would become more like jesus allowing him to work through us...jus like god worked through jesus...thus explaining how we would become one with jesus how jesus and the father became one....By Spirit.... BTW I love this forum and everybody on it......because all of you actually take the time to understand what you believe in...and you respond with thought out answers......

thanx everybody for your opinions and thanx to you damo i kind of understand it your way............. this is what I see.... Jesus has been around since eternity but was never manifested untill his human birth...that is when god said "today I begot a son of flesh and blood".....which makes him an extension of god or part of god.....but he continuously talks about god the father as seperate yet one....he makes it a point to make that distinction...so we cand discard that either....it seems as though the relationship between jesus and god is one we cant fully comprehend as humans....so i believe that god calls jesus his son so that we can have some point of reference...notice god didnt say he begot himself...nor did he say he begot an angel...but a son so he holds a special relationship with the father god as a part or extension of god.... ALSO....Jesus said that he came so that we might become one with him as jesus and the father are one.......which means its possible to be one but be seperate at the same time.... so what does this now mean is the question.... what does it mean to become one....this would bring us to the next revelation...i believe that whatever our relationship is with jesus once we are saved is the same relationship jesus has with the father...because jesus made tht analogy in the scripture i put at the start of this paragraph where Jesus said that he came so that we might become one with him as jesus and the father are one....this would bring us to the next revelation... somebody tell me if im wrong......im jus trying to know what i believe..because it seems as though most christians i know dont even examin there faith they jus take someone elses word for it....now im tryin to find out what i believe so i can defend what it is i believe...

Thank you. Hebrews 1:4-6 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. how can jesus be god if he was made? paul states the son ( jesus) was made so much better than the angels

that makes sense to me card captor...........like i was saying earlier why would there be so many scriptures seperating the fact that there is a son and a father if they are the same one...i believe god wouldnt confuse us...and like i said i got to find this one scripture...that talks about how god exalts jesus a little higher thaan the angels......

first off thanks to shiloh and damo1 those were both helpful.... shiloh......you explained some of the things good but not all.....especially the point that jesus said the son nor the angels no the day and time of judgement only the father.......that was a simple statement not relative to time it was a fact....if god is the same person as the son that means the son knows....I do agree with this fact that Jesus was not mearly a man..he was pre existant because in genisis the bible said that man was created in the likeness of us...showing a plural situation with god.....so obviously their is a special relationship with jesus and god...im just tryin to figure it out..if he is god why not say so why say son of god..and why is there a scripture where it is said that jesus got exalted/elevated a little above the angels....if he is god how does one exalt or elevate god..he is the alpha and omega..... btw im not denying that jesus is eternal im jus saying the way it is put in the bible it seems as if god and jesus are at different levels...like God is exalted above jesus..has more power than jesus...therefore how can they be the same person.....

maybe you can clarify these scriptures then ...... LUKE 18:19 Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God LUKE 2:52 Jesus grew in wisdom and stature and in favor with God and men. JOHN 8:42 I proceeded forth and came from God, neither came I of myself but he sent me. and this is confusing as well..... god knows all then why did he say this in matthew.... Matt 24:36 But of that day and hour no man know, not the angels which are in heaven, nor the son, but only the father. But God knows all, since Jesus does not know of the day of judgment he is not all-knowing and therefore not God Although Jesus performed miracles he admitted that his power was not his own John 5:19 I can of mine own self do nothing Matt 12:28 I case out devils by the spirit of God God does not lose power and if someone drains him of power he would know who had done it. Mark 5: 25-32 When she heard about Jesus, she came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak, because she thought, If I just touch his clothes, I will be healed. Immediately her bleeding stopped and she felt in her body that she was freed from her suffering. At once Jesus realized that power had gone out from him. He turned around in the crowd and asked, Who touched my clothes? But Jesus kept looking around to see who had done it. I realize that jesus is Lord......that the god has given him his gift which is us his bride..and that without him there is no salvation...but are he and god the same and if so how do you explain these scriptures above..please answer each one accordingly not just throw it to the side.....

Just been reading the scriptures for my self lately and im not sure what i believe reguarding this....there are scriptures going both ways.... Jesus is refered as the son of god, as the messiah...he even prays to the father..and says the father sent him..peter also calls him the son of god But...... at the same time jesus says he and the father are one..if you have seen him u have seen the father...but does he mean they are one person or they are one as in on the same accord.....for instance the bible says that when 2 get married they become one flesh..... My question is how can he be the son of god and god at the same time and why would he pray to himself? BTW im leaning more towards the fact that jesus is god...thats what ive been taught but help me understand..thanx

i think its ok