johnP

Is this baptismal regeneration being preached? johnp.

Hello horizoneast. Nice talking to you. Just one point to make. I was not speculating about the carnel mind but quoting scripture. It is not an extreme position but the right one. The rest of your post is great and I'm glad to call you brother. johnp.

Hello Michael. One of my favourite topics. Where's the matches? Read the bible I'd say. I believe this; GE 2:18 The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him." That the Church have been without their better halfs too long. We have all been the losers in this. Women should take up the yoke and pull their weight. We need a whole Church. Since we are all one in Christ anything that stops one of the Royal Priesthood from fulfilling her role is sin and diminishes all of us. But I am afraid it will be the women who cause the most strife here because they like the easy life! So the Amen must be said in their head? johnp.

Hello horizoneast.

Hello Man. PS 103:17 But from everlasting to everlasting the LORD's love is with those who fear him, and his righteousness with their children's children-- Eze 37:25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children's children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. PR 22:6 Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it. Keep praying and keep trusting Him because He has given us our children and their children. Heaven would not be Heaven without them. I will pray for your Prodigals. It is. It crucified the Lord of life. johnp.

Hello horizoneast. We should be having some fun in the future then. I say that men are saved by grace. I mean that men are saved by God willing in their will to do His will. That, when His will is to gather in one of His children, He moves the person irresistably towards Jesus and makes him a son. This is accomplished in the man because the man is dead in his sins. He is hostile to God and cannot do as God wants. That is regeneration and from regeneration comes the forgiveness of sins. Repentance can only come after regeneration because only a spiritually living being is recognised by God. He does not listen to sinners, they are dead. We must believe in Jesus before we do anything else or we won't repent properly. We cannot ask God for forgiveness we must ask Jesus as He is the mediator and to ask Jesus is to believe in Jesus. To believe in Jesus is therefore prerequisite to repentance. To believe in Jesus is faith and faith is needed to please God. Repentance is a dangerous thing! It can lead to death if you get it wrong. It's the difference between Peter and Judas. Faith and repentance are the same thing when repentance is viewed as a turning to Jesus. The sinner does have the responsibilty to repent and turn to God. That we are held to account for ourselves is beyond dispute. Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength, Duet 6:5, is still in operation. As you said, "This knowledge of good and evil we have is not a gift, but a curse." And a curse it was. It enabled us to know right from wrong but left us unable to do right. That's right is it not? Adam was perfect yet was unable to do God's will. Well he failed the test. Our responsibilty cannot be discharged by us because we are sinners. That is not God's problem. God is Sovereign and commands. That we can't obey is our problem. That is what we should tell people. The need for Christ is paramount. Getting repentance wrong here leads to death. We must make sure what baptism means. In the telling to people that they can be sure their repentance has merit you have told them salvation is by works. We must make sure what his preaching was about. What he meant by repentance. Is it shorthand for, "... "In the desert prepare the way for the LORD; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God."? A preaching of the One to come. I'm sure John preached Christ and belief in Him. JN 1:6 There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world. Good old Spurgeon. I know him well. These two things act and react upon each other: the man who is forgiven, therefore repents; and the man who repents is also most assuredly forgiven

Suzanne. I have used some of horizoneast's posts for quotes. Isaiah 40:3 and Malachi 3:1 will be fulfilled completely when Elijah comes back. MAL 3:1 "See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the LORD Almighty. MAL 4:5 "See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes. 6 He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers; or else I will come and strike the land with a curse." Jesus comes twice to us. Once carrying salvation the second to wind things up. John's baptism was transitory and we may see Elijah calling people to a baptism of repentance as a preparation for the second coming.

Suzanne. I can't remember where I got this from. I found it the other night and cut and saved it. John was a Levite (a priest actually) after his father. Numbers 8:6-7 we read: "Take the Levites from among the children of Israel, and cleanse them. And thus shalt thou do unto them, to cleanse them: sprinkle the water of expiation upon them." Whether or not this ritual was repeated over and over in each generation, all the Levites in history were represented at this one cleansing act. Hebrews 9 speaks of the figures of the OT system. Verse 10 speaks expressly of "diverse baptisms" [literally], referring to the different ceremonial washings or cleansings of the the OT administration, and the Hebrews writer points to several examples. Jay Adams draws attention to the following cross-references: Hebrews 9:13 --- Numbers 19:17-18 "sprinkling" Hebrews 9:19 --- Exodus 24:6, 8 "sprinkling" Hebrews 9:21 --- Leviticus 8:19; 16:14 "sprinkling" I haven't check any of this out. johnp.

Hello Fr Chuck. Acts 4:12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." Jesus not John. Here's a good argument; Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. Faith must come first because God is not pleased unless faith is present. Faith, a very small gap, repentance. That's a winner ain't it? johnp.

Hello LivinForHisGlory. You will have to be specific. johnp.

Hello horizoneast. It's good to meet you. I just don't believe repentance is possible for the unregenerate. Do you? Rom 8:7-8 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. I just don't believe repentance saves. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Eph 2:8-9. That 'if', does that mean that Jesus did not know if the disciples loved Him? JN 14:15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command. There is no question about it. We will obey. If we love Him. That's what love is isn't it? To consider the other better than yourself. Yes but what is repent? The King of King's has the right and power to to demand allegiance with threats. We are rebels. There is no choice being offered. Do as you are told or go to Hell. It says this to law breakers and this is all that it says. It says nothing about ability except; ISA 6:10 Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed." MT 13:15 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' MT 13:11 He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. The command is given to the unregenerate but not the ability to obey. God says, "the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God." Rom 8:7-8. So if a person responds it is God working in him to will to do God's will. Many are called but few chosen. Those who refuse to do God's will after hearing it will increase their sin and receive the due penalty for it. God is not only not obliged to give us anything He actually says He has the right to make some for the fire and some for Heaven. Rom 9:21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? 'that repentance comes before the remission of sins.' If you read it that way then baptism also comes before remission of sins. Is this what you believe? AC 2:40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." Calling people to repentance is part of the gathering but it is not useful for salvation as to it's merits but shows God at work in the hearts of men. "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." Repentance is eliminated by Rom 9:15 as a means to salvation except that God works His work in men's hearts to respond. He does this in many ways. Those that respond are responding to God in a positive way but the mind of a sinful man is at emnity with God. It will not submit. Rom 8:7-8. It's by grace that people are saved, through faith and this not from ourselves. A gift. Eph 2:8-9. It is by faith, not repentance or baptism. Here I stand. To believe that Christ died for our sins is salvation and is the only way to salvation. Teaching salvation by repentance, unless that repentance is believing that Christ died for our sins, is a false teaching. How's that? johnp.

Hello Suzanne. We are coming from opposite positions, there is bound to be friction. God will teach us through that to love one another if we stick at it. To respect one another in our opposition is a participation in the Kingdom. RO 8:12 Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation--but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. The same One in you is also in me. I would like to know all the answers myself. I work towards a greater knowledge with persistance and ...by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them--yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11 Whether, then, it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed. 1 Cor 15:10-11. I don't think we have an inclination of our own. If we love Him so much why do we wander so often? Whatever is returned to God must have come from God. If God wills in our will to love Him then that love is real love willed by us. I get all the benefits of it and feel it and want it forever. I cannot make apologies for believing this and it is not as if I've just invented a thing. I know I have very good company in my beliefs. With respect Suzanne you must face those scriptures and come to some sort of terms with them. Rom 8:7-8 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. The only course for us is to hate Him more as we are bound by our fallen nature and helpless to it's power. You don't want to believe that. That is normal. I am not trying to convince you but just answer your questions. The Holy Spirit decides what you believe. Rom 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? I observe. The sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. Gal 5:17. We do not do what we want is a fact. We are obsevers and paticipate according to the power of the Holy Spirit. All men participate in a relationship with God determined by God. I witness my Father at work in everything that comes before me. I ask myself why, in which way is this good for me, what can I learn. 2 Cor 4:6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ. He made His light shine in my heart. He who started it will see it through to completion. I am a recipient of God's love because of His will because it was His will that I should be made for noble purposes. johnp.

Hello LivinForHisGlory. I believe in repentance I just don't believe that repentance saves. I believe in repentance I just don't believe repentance is possible for the unregenerate. He has my broken spirit. He also has the truth from me in that I confess that my repentance needs repenting of. Those who say that they did not know what sin was 'until' still don't know what sin is and those that are selfrighteous who think they can produce perfect repentance need to repent of that. If it is not perfect then it is sin. We repent in sin with sin but we are learning about ourselves in that knowledge. If it is not perfect repentance then it is not repentance or, repentance is acceptable from a five year old who will repent of that repentance when he has more knowledge of himself. It cannot be meritorious because we are sinners. It is however accepted by our Father because He loves us. Do you get what I mean? Our repentance is only acceptable to God on the basis of Christ's sacrifice. Our sins are forgiven but we are still sinners. I agree with you completely. I understand. I will try my best to keep off the subject as much as possible but it is very hard here. Repentance is being put forward as a way of salvation so Calvinism will be present. I'm inclining to the idea that repentance, that is; A turning around from not believing to a believing is a repentance. It is also regeneration. A repentance not to be repented of. Same thing? The moment I met Jesus I believed in Him whereas the moment before I did not. johnp.

Hello Botz. You was talking about how some people seemed to be. Elijah did some amazing things, struck the water to walk across dry, brought fire down from the sky etc. He prayed and it happened. Yet the bible does say he was a man just like us therefore we can do what he did if it's in the will of God. When he was about to catch the bus to Heaven Elisha ask for a double portion of the Spirit, you might not read it the same as I do, which seems to me a laying on of hands of a sort. 2KI 2:9 When they had crossed, Elijah said to Elisha, "Tell me, what can I do for you before I am taken from you?" "Let me inherit a double portion of your spirit," Elisha replied. 2KI 2:10 "You have asked a difficult thing," Elijah said, "yet if you see me when I am taken from you, it will be yours--otherwise not." That's all. johnp.

LivinForHisGlory. I don't know if you are talking to me in this post, posted: Oct 21 2004, 05:46 PM, but seeing as a quote from me is used I will take it to be so. You say; With all due respect I don't want to enter this conversation with you. You say; How do you argue with that? What's it to be then? johnp.

Suzanne. I would compel you john... No, man came into the possession of the knowledge good and evil because they did not know evil before they took the apple but taking the apple they knew evil. That evil was, dead in their transgressions and sins and could not escape the judgement that followed. This will leave us without excuse Suzanne. He does not say He will give us the ability to do the good. In fact He says, "And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life. He has hidden the way from man. I must go. johnp.

Hello LivinForHisGlory. It's purpose is to bring into judgement. What's repentance? Only to those that have been enlightened. This is not all the world either. Not all heard the law. I am sorry I did not put the chapter and verse to that quote, ..."The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12 so that, " `they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!' Mark 4:11-12. They cannot see how can they know they fall short of the law? Jesus says thast the Kingdom is hidden to these people how can they turn in repentance? They cannot. The same goes for all men except those who have been given the Kingdom. How else can I read this passage? Exactly what I am saying. What is repentance if it is not keeping the moral law? We have a different way but that is not through the law. Repentance does not save but the other way does. JN 6:28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." By believing that Christ died for your sins is the gospel and nothing else. Where is the repentance here? Sorry it is a bit rushed, I have to go out soon. johnp.

Hello Suzanne. All we can do is pray for each other. Whoever does the will of God. johnp.

Hello LivinForHisGlory. You need to know what you are like and you can only see the truth when you are regenerated. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. Rom 8:6-8. How can a man repent when he is hostile towards God? He first needs to be made alive or he remains dead. There is no inbetween state. All the thief did on the cross was reach out to Jesus for life and this is not possible unless the Lord had saved Him first. God's grace must come first. Then we can see. But to the others He says, ..."The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12 so that, " `they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!' So how can any of those repent? johnp.

Botz. Elijah was a man just like us. johnp.

Suzanne. Well that is what I've been saying. But seeing as we are groping in the dark with not knowing who we are talking about Christians or non-Christians and the fact that we have jumped any discussion on what repentance is will just leave us sniping at one another. You should come to a realisation naturally but that does not make faith real. Faith alone is real and what comes from that is real repentance. Real repentance does not affect faith except to make it stronger. No it is not. The faith you have is the cure. No you said yourself that faith will naturally result in works. If you do nothing about it then you will join the thief on the cross who had no time for repentance, the children that are not able and that man in Corinth who did not bother, 1 Cor 5:5. Repentance has nothing to do with salvation except it is one way the Lord draws those chosen. It has no saving quality in and of itself. 21 Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you. Do not merely listen to the word and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. I have not said that repentance is of no use and is not used but this verse is difficult and I need to examine it more. Who is he talking to? I'll come back to this as I have to go to housegroup tonight. We should keep in mind that the law saved no one so repentance, which after all is obedience to the law, will save no one. Is that 'by the water'? Was that a baptism of repentance or what? Was it a baptism or just a joy of a sinner meeting his Saviour? johnp.

Who baptised John the Baptist? johnp.

Hello SkilletRocksMyFace. Good post. It is right and proper to correct. We are here to snatch others from the flames not browbeat. johnp.

Hello yomotalking. May be you would like to correct this error to, "Answer= the effect of original sin." As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. Lk 1:44. As you say, "OBVIOUSLY, AT FIVE, I COULDN'T DO ALL THOSE OTHER THINGS, BUT NEITHER CAN SOMEONE WHO IS CONVERTED ON THEIR DEATH-BED!!!". Since a fetus can be saved and be conscious of the presence of Jesus I think you were getting on a bit when you were saved. 1SA 2:18 But Samuel was ministering before the LORD--a boy wearing a linen ephod. 19 Each year his mother made him a little robe and took it to him when she went up with her husband to offer the annual sacrifice. A little boy wearing a linen ephod(Exclamation mark) But how can this be reconciled with steve's point below? Samuel was a Priest of the most high and he was such without repentance if steve's statement is correct. If the objection is raised that we don't know how old he was then the answer to that is, "19 Each year his mother made him a little robe..." Ok sister? johnp.

Good morning Suzanne. From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near." Matt 4:17. What does repent mean? Salvation is by faith from first to last. If you get repentance wrong then it is not repentance because worldly sorrow brings death. 2 Cor 7:10. johnp.