johnP

Hello bobdamitch. Is what you have left when God is not Sovereign. I believe the whosoever gospel. The whosoever is there for the whosoever. We don't have to worry about the question 'am I chosen?". You are chosen if you are a whosoever. That is a misdirecting. Wherever did you get the understanding that Calvinists reject God's Sovereignity or say that He is without mercy? We uphold God's Sovereignity and mercy but we put that in God not men. I do not understand your last paragraph. Confession and repentance need to be defined because they mean different things to different people. Are you complaining about a belief in the order things are done in because you seem to be saying that God does the work either way round and I won't argue with that? Since you are stating someone elses beliefs then you have a responsibility to be specific and relate exactly what we believe in a clear way for others to understand. I for one have never been able to seperate the new birth from regeneration and that is conversion. Are you saying that the Holy Spirit only helps us to salvation by showing us clearly, and that man has to make the deciding decision? johnp

Hello bobdamitch. I have to go out but I thought I would send this first. Let's stick to scripture. We can all bring evidence from men. I don't believe prayer changes anything not even how the people will be affected. But that is not a reason not to pray. God works His will through our prayers and if we don't pray He will get someone else to, which was His plan to begin with. See you later. johnp

Yes Lt we have the ability to chose but it is not a free choice because it is bound to our nature. We will as we are and we are sinners. Volition: 1 : the act of willing or choosing : the act of deciding (as on a course of action or an end to be striven for) : the exercise of the will 2 : the termination of an act or exercise of choosing or willing : a state of decision or choice 3 : the power of willing or determining : WILL... But that is not free will. The sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Holy Spirit. Gal 5:17. It just does and we cannot act in accordance with God because we are enemies with Him. The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. Rom 8:7-8. Does that answer your point. Although we are free to chose we will only choose that which we desire. We don't want God therefore we are not free to choose Him. That's our nature that does that. We are biased when it comes to choosing. Oh Thanks Undecided! Just the support I need! Trinity is right though. It's worse than you think. It was God that decided to will in that person to be where he was so God could make sure the bus caught him. It was God that made sure of all the details. He made sure the bus was running and the driver was in the condition he was to hit the person and all of the details all the way back from creation. A plan devised in eternity. ...The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised. Job 1:21. It is not foreknowledge but control. Puppet like! It's good to meet you though UndecidedFrog. I say the scriptures tell us that we have not got the ability to chose God's way, Total Inability, (the 'T' in TULIP), until God works in us to save ourselves. Works in you in a way that you will not be able to resist. That is the 'I' in TULIP, Irresistable Grace. You are undecided because of God not because of you. Thanks for those words of encouragement Trinity they mean a lot to me. johnp

This should read, 'The transfiguration is a representation I think...' because it does not say that explicitly? What exactly is a representation? A reproduction or likeness? But you can't have a reproduction before the reality can you? The law and the prophets had not yet been fulfilled. But they have not have they? Are you placing grace above the law? This seems wrong because God's Love is not above His Justice. God is One. Whad'yer fink? Dad Ernie. We are not here to convince each other just have a good time arguing. Where's the fun in agreeing with each other? We'd be taping the table instead of these keys wouldn't we? Anyway that is tolerance and tolerance is love and love never fails. That is an impressively long reply Dad Ernie and I shall look into it tomorrow. I was going to say, Check your translation it is in error I think. But I see that you have got doxa there so I will leave that for now. This I take it is only the AV rendering? Anyway; We carried on the conversation me and my mate. I know that this is opposed by you but I thought it good enough to air. Moses and Elijah were national hero's. Held in the highest esteem by the people of Israel. Both acted in the special ways that only God can act. For instance. Moses was made to be as God to Pharaoh, Ex 4:16 He will speak to the people for you, and it will be as if he were your mouth and as if you were God to him. Elijah also acted like Jesus when He rised the child to life. 1 Kings 17:23 Elijah picked up the child and carried him down from the room into the house. He gave him to his mother... Lk 7:15 The dead man sat up and began to talk, and Jesus gave him back to his mother. The similarity is striking but Elijah had to perform some tricks before God healed the kid but all Jesus does is command. It would be hard for the Jews to accept someone who presumed to be the one that Moses spoke of. They would have to drop their national hero's or at least adopt another one. Look at Peter reaction. They were held in the highest esteem, where would their national identity be if they threw it away on this fellow? Or as Peter thought, they were three of a kind. But Jesus is not comparable to these two in any way. He shone around them, showing His superiority to them. Proving to the witnesses, Peter and company, and those they spoke to, that they had seen Jesus with those two great men and He, Jesus, shone like the sun and it reflected off Moses and Elijah. You see He is our national Hero isnt He and the disciples would have spoken to the Jews in this knowledge. The two great men only reflected the glory of the One that they were being told about. Inertia caused by the Jews regard for their esteemed men of God. That had to be overcome and Peter with the Holy Spirit would convince the Jews with this story. They were reassured that it was safe to let go of these men of God because He was here. Jesus will not look like the rest of us on the Day of Resurrection because Jesus is God and God will not yield His glory to another. Isa 48:11 Why not; "How can I let myself be defamed?" He says. Jesus with the same glory as us defames Him. John 17:24. "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. On Judgement Day Jesus will not look like us. He will be a man but He will look like God and He will look like God to the furthest extent as is safe for us because He wants to reveal His glory and our glory will be the reflection of that. As it always will be. We are talking about glory and that can't be bad 'a'? johnp

Thanks Dad Ernie. I'll look at this when my friend leaves. I thought I'd just stick this in as a bit of info that he gave me. MAL 4:4 "Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel. MAL 4:5 "See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes. 6 He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers; or else I will come and strike the land with a curse." Seeing as they are mentioned together I thought it might be relevant. johnp

Dad Ernie. I don't intend to be rude. It is the last thing on my mind. We both have our beliefs and they conflict. I accept that. Let us find the mind of God together please. I asked you, 'Then you are saying that Moses and Elijah were resurrected before Jesus?' Your reply, if you will forgive me for saying, seems to hinge on a knowledge of somewhere called 'outside time'. Can I read it from the scriptures? If there is something else outside our time line, somewhere where the saints have been glorified, and God can just pop them into this reality whenever He feels like it this passage does not prove it. Have I understood you correctly? You say He stopped the sun and moved it forward and that proves He manipulated time. How do you know how He did it? It indicates whatever you want it to indicate does it not? If the sun stopped moving across the sky it would indicate to me that the earth had stopped spinning. Where does He say He created time? He did not create all there is did He? His love? His Justice? His light? His life? Show me where He created time and I cede this point. I am out on a limb here. There are 721 references to time in the NIV and I'm not checking them all. So I can't say for sure! I have made the assumption that you say God can move about in time in this 'outside time' place. If He can do this then He has a problem doesn't He? Somewhere along this time line Jesus is still on the cross isn't He? It is best, and not contradicted by scripture, that the past has gone and the future is yet to be, for us and for God. This is reality. I think. johnp

Hello wordsower. This sounds very promising. Maybe Jesus was telling them what was to come by way of explanation. He revealed to them how He was to die for sin. Matt 13:17 For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it. Just as He later explained to the two disciples on the road, Lk 24:32 They asked each other, "Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?" That might have been what Jesus was doing. Letting two of His friends know at last. . johnp

Hello larryt. It is not only contrary to scripture but to reason as well. Your passage and those below will need to be explained before free will gets a look in. God is Soveriegn over sin and uses it whenever He is pleased to. 2 Sam 16:10-12 But the king said, "What do you and I have in common, you sons of Zeruiah? If he is cursing because the LORD said to him, `Curse David,' who can ask, `Why do you do this?' " David then said to Abishai and all his officials, "My son, who is of my own flesh, is trying to take my life. How much more, then, this Benjamite! Leave him alone; let him curse, for the LORD has told him to. It may be that the LORD will see my distress and repay me with good for the cursing I am receiving today." David knew that! 1 Kings 19-22 Micaiah continued, "Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. And the LORD said, `Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?' "One suggested this, and another that. Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, `I will entice him.' " `By what means?' the LORD asked. " `I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said. " `You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. `Go and do it.' God is Soveriegn over lies as well and uses them whenever it pleases Him. There's loads of this in the bible. It takes a giant intellect to miss them. johnp

Greetings Yahsway. No he is wrong and this is not predestination. He is just using the word in a way that is to his fancy rather than what the word means. Have a look here. http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/ The dictionary meaning of predestine is: to destine, decree, determine, appoint, or settle beforehand : foreordain especially by divine decree or eternal purpose. This is a denial of scripture. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world. It's personal. Gal 2:20 ...I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. Eph 1:4-5. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- It is God's choice and it is in accordance with His pleasure and will. It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. Rom 9:16. There is nothing we can do to save ourselves. This is unbelief! Why? Because we must trust that Jesus made a sufficient sacrifice for sin. Did we have your sins forgiven by Christ or not? If yes then how can we then go to Hell? For what sin? Did Jesus die for our sins or not? It is that simple. If we believe that Jesus paid the penalty for our sin then we have faith. If we believe that we can go to Hell after we have our sins forgiven then we do not trust that Jesus made a sufficient payment for our sins and lack faith in Jesus. This is the heart of the gospel. John 6:28-29 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." Do we believe in Him or not. Believing is faith and faith, believing that Jesus died for our sin, is all that is required. Rom 4:16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring--not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. Only faith guarantees our salvation. It is a guarantee issued by God to those that have faith. This is Yahsway Yahsway there is no other. I checked it out and found him wanting. Have a read of the website I gave you. Let me know what you think. johnp

Greetings to you to Dad Ernie. Then you are saying that Moses and Elijah were resurrected before Jesus? johnp.

That's a good point larryt. 'Eve does make a statement of faith and believing God when Cain is born.' It was Adam and Eve. They were clothed with animal skins so a sacrifice was made on their behalf by the only priest knocking about. The first dead animals arrive on the scene! The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. Gen 3:21. Abel is my second favourite. Job 19:25 I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth. They all knew about the Redeemer and put their faith in Him. They were saved in the same way we are, by faith. They had faith that ...'O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer' would redeem as we see He did. Praise Him! Ps 19:14. johnp

Hello Dad Ernie. No I don't think that. Once glorified always glorified, that's what I say! But I don't see why they should look transfigured when they have not yet been ressurrected. Jesus looked like them and He wasn't yet ressurrected. Lk 9:32 Peter and his companions were very sleepy, but when they became fully awake, they saw his glory and the two men standing with him. Now if the disciples saw Moses and Elijah by the light reflected off them then that light was the glory of the Lord. That's why they looked glorious, they were standing in the light. Or rather by it's side. Does this hold water? Yahsway, good to meet you. Yes I believe this. They also wrote most of the new as well. Absolutely right but not all 'a'? That's right. God is one. Without shadow. No contradictions. It's seamless! The example you give comes from the new written by a Jew who knew his stuff. Where would the Aposles stand I wonder, with the Jews or with the new Jews? Gets complicated don't it? We already are one brother. We are a royal priesthood, a holy nation 1 Peter 2:9. Chosen and loved by God. johnp

i would have liked to have been a fly on the wall ( so to speak )... or even in the shoes of the apostles.... Would have been a sight wouldn't it? But we would be just as in the dark and we might have said what Peter said! "clothed in sackcloth" means they are calling people to repentance, I'd take that as right. I can't remember what state Israel was in after Elijah left in his chariot. Maybe where he failed before, this time he will succeed, to turn Israel to God as a nation, together. When God breathes into them: That's the end isn't it? Ressurrection day? Rev 11:11. 'This could refer to the jewish peoples who now know that Yeshua is their messiah and they are now prophecying it.' This is happening now, Jews witnessing to Jews. Could that not be seen as splitting the Church? I know it can seem to lean that way with the two trees and light stands, whatever they are, and also with the 24 elders, two lots of 12, Rev 11:4; 19:4. But somehow it does not gel with me. I can see that sending a Jew to witness to Jews sounds right, he is circumcised, but to cause a division between the old and new when they have the same message sounds a bit odd to me. After all, Abraham is the father of those who have faith. God's people have had their sins forgiven ServingHim but I won't argue that here. There is a good old punch up on that topic and ongoing in the Predestination thread. Meet you there or be square! Are they ALIVE in heaven? As men in bodies, yes. And before the ressurrection! These are good points you bring up. I'd missed the implication. johnp

Hello Ayin Jade. It's speculation really but fun. I don't know if it has to be but it goes along with what you said, 'it is appointed to man to die but once'. These two have not died. Another problem comes from knowing that not all men will die. According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 1 Thess 4:15-17. They are to be sent to the people of Israel, Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified, Rev 11:3. The bible says that Elijah is to come at the end. Before that dreadful day of the Lord, Mal 4:5. This must be judgement day. Since Jesus was heralded in the first time by John then the same must go for the end. John's dead Elijah's not. The scene I think is that these two will be the ones that graft the natural branch back onto the tree. Rom 11:13-21. But I am venturing into Revelation and I don't want to go there! Also Enoch said, "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him." Jude 1:14-15. I don't know how relevant this is. All the best. I hope you gather a lot of responses. Who knows we might come out at the end with more than we started with. (Lurking 'a'?) johnp

Hi Ayin Jade. Elijah did not die so I think he is one of those two witnesses to come at the end but I don't think Moses will be. The other must be, I think, Enoch who did not die either. Maybe it has to do with Moses and Elijah as great leaders being introduced to some more great leaders to be, Peter and company. An interesting topic, I shall keep my eye on it. johnp

Hello Dime. The answer is yes. Calvin's TULIP is a can't have one without the other. Knock one out and it will collapse. Your first error did not take long to surface did it? The Church did not originate at Pentecost. To a large degree it changed in it's understanding in that we knew how God is the Saviour, what method He was to use to save and did use to save. He is the head of the body and Abraham is recorded as being the Father of those justified by faith. All those justified are part of the body and as such are members of the Church. Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. That the Church holds Paul's words as Christ's is not in dispute but to think that anyone would submit themselves to Paul is wrong. They submitted themselves to scripture and what that teaches as do I. The Bereans did not except Paul's word, they checked it out to see if it checked out with scripture. Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. Yes the scriptures. Is there some other teaching knocking around that I have not heard of? They did not argue, now that will be the day! Devotion to the word of God does not argue against arguing does it? In fact argument over scripture shows that you are devoted as a Christian to the word of God. This is our nature. But the idea is wrong because you have a contradiction don't you? You say they all believed everything Paul told them yet Paul himself says there will be disagreements among us doesn't he? 1 Cor 11:19. Answer this one please. Ok, I agree to the blatantly obvious. You see I am not obstinate. Re-examine your idea of when the Church came into existence. And what were those false doctrine yours or mine? That's the question. I said; 4. If you are in doubt as to the scriptural integrity of the thing called Calvinism then bring your scriptures and I will bring mine. All things are decided by the scripture and nothing is decided outside the scripture. You answer; Church history, although to some extent it is useful, does not supplant scripture. Back to the word. There is nothing to attend to here but scripture. Is there something wrong with this idea? Have you found some comfort in the fact that you only find one man who thought this and he a Roman Catholic to boot! Spin won't wash. But how can something not exist until Calvin when it did before Calvin with said Catholic? And you stand by that really? That is illogical captain. There are two points I think need answering. 1. You have said the teaching came back. It is staying like that, that it came back? Do you stand by this? 2. In general this teaching is not held and as not been accepted by Christianity. If it was I would not feel compelled to speak. I did not view these links. I was working from the scriptures and thought it unnecessary to look elsewhere. I'll go and take a look at them when I have a minute. Please enlighten me as to how my world has just ended and I did not know. Also, you might like to rephase your original question since I did not understand it. As for Clement, Polycarp and company, don't you believe these men were subject to error? The 2 Epistle of Clement, Chapter 4 is as far as I know not accepted into the canon is it? When did that happen? Men prove nothing. Let God be true and every man a liar, Rom 3:4. Not that I am saying anything is wrong with their statements, it is just that their statements need to be explained, not jumped on because you see them supporting you. One sentence from a long dead man shows nothing, I can't see why you think it does. I cannot understand why you enter it as evidence. What is it, you have stumped me? I will do this once. Irenaeus. we [will] obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but rather be shut out from His kingdom." Scripture. John 10:28-30 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." Read that and leap! johnp

Hello smallfry it's nice to meet you. Angel-Eyes put this post up for us. Up till now we have been concentrating on people and not studying scripture. I am more than willing to work through these passages to come to a better understanding of what our Father wants us to know with anyone. I believe this is a serious enough topic to spend time on and I am willing to spend time on it. As for changing anyones mind let us just speak and leave the changing of minds to Him who has been appointed to change them, the Holy Spirit. In peace. johnp

Where I stand: To try to make my position as clear as possible and to help those who do not really understand where this is coming from please see below. I believe this and I believe this with a certainty that I am not aquainted with elsewhere; God. God commands us. God controls our will and we respond. He soften or hardens us. God rewards those people with the reward those actions that He willed in them deserve. Mankind. Man hears God's commands. Man is controlled by God for good the *saint and the sinner respond in sin. The saints sin is **disregarded and is rewarded by God who did the good. The sinner's sin is not disregarded because he has not been forgiven by Jesus. * All Christians are saints. ** Disregarded: to treat as unworthy of regard or notice : I believe this to be the very heart of the gospel. johnp

I am sorry about that Bob. Thanks, I got a bit rushed. I am sorry for the lenght of time it has taken me to respond. I have been doing this reply most of the day but that is all right isn't it? There is no rush. We want to get it right No! Yea! I concern myself sometimes too. Nice ain't it? And so you should. This attitude brings glory to God and us closer together. That I must choose there is no doubt. I welcome your attempt and look forward to growing with you and your dear friend regardless of the outcome. Revelation! Oh no! Don't let us go into Revelation for goodness sake. We have enough trouble already! Revelation 3:19-21 Addressed to the Christians in Laodicea. Jesus loves those He rebukes and rebukes those He loves and He disciplines* those He loves and rebukes. God calls us to repent. To make a choice. To decide not one way or another but repent*. To give serious attention to the matter and use our will to repent. There is still time but be earnest. Don't start well and fade again. They are asleep. *Repent means; to turn from sin out of penitence for past wrongdoings, abandon sinful or unworthy purposes and values, and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life In this paticular passage I think. Abandon wrong doing. It is not to say sorry but change your ways and not return to them. Repentance means they will not return to the wrong doing. They are connected and going back to them means you did not repent in the first place! I know I'm saying this. God commands us. God controls our will and we respond. He soften or hardens us. God rewards those people with the reward those actions deserve.I know I am saying this. This is my belief so the passage shows a cause and effect in operation but does not show free will. God commands the man the Holy Spirit wills in the man to do His bidding and God rewards the man as the man deserves. I know it sounds stupid but this passage does not deny that. I stopped tap dancing sometime ago because I kept falling in the sink! God does indeed pull the strings. I know it annoys people. I know it sounds stupid I am not stupid am I? Am I? Agh! I had not taken that into consideration now I come to think of it! Mind you nobody has called me stupid have they? Just wrong. Sweat. *Disciplines: training or experience that corrects, molds, strengthens, or perfects especially the mental faculties or moral character Where is the free will in being corrected : to make or set right : remove the faults or errors from : ? The people He is addressing are saved already. They are the Church. It is not about Unconditional Election at all and Unconditional Election does not fit into this scripture at all. Maybe this is pertinant. Who is it that overcomes, verse 21? 1 John 5:4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. It does not say might overcome but will overcome. Pereseverance of the Saints. Now I think I will use those emoticons for the first time. Anything to make Calvinism look a bit better. Is this ok? Nothing in paticular. Have you noticed that the rest of the bible tends to be very sketchy on details, but when I am reading it the pictures that come to mind are vivid. Here in Revelation it is stuffed with detail and I find it hard to form pictures in my head. Just thought I'd say that. Once upon a time a long time ago I decided to spend two weeks on studying Revelation. I got all the material I could and read and reread the Revelation. At the end of two weeks I knew absolutely nothing except that a dragon was involved in some way. The promise at the beginning was lived up to though. Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near. I got answers to many passages in the rest of the bible as I journeyed in that strange place. johnp

LadyC. Maybe I misunderstood what that above meant. Maybe an explanation couched differently might help me see. As it stands the above argument loses the argument about women making decisions. This is what I think you mean. Since being adept at her task she is able to place in the mind of another a persuasion. That the recipient believes it is theirs unaware of the fact that it isn't. Unaware of the fact that the decision he makes is not his decision, yet he decided, but the others decision which in some devious way was suggest to them. It must be devious because the man is unaware of it. It must be the decision of the woman even though he decided, he decided something someone else decided! Is that right? If it is right then I am speechless. With respect johnp

Sorry Dime. This has come as a surprise. I know I replied but for the life of me I cannot find it. My apologises, I might have lost it tidying the desktop so here is a new and revised version. 1. No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval. So it does not mean 'everything' in this sense does it? 2. By way of 'goods' do you mean? Because it does not mean doctrine does it? No, but I am sure we give to those in need when we see it. 3. False teaching was around as the Apostle Paul was preaching. Jesus said there would be weeds sown and many. Matt 13:24-30 4. If you are in doubt as to the scriptural integrity of the thing called Calvinism then bring your scriptures and I will bring mine. All things are decided by the scripture and nothing is decided outside the scripture. 5. Calvin was a minister in Geneva. He was not a civil magistrate. After the arrest of Servetus on the charge of heresy he was given the choice of being extradited to stand trail in Vienna where heresy charges were pending over his book on the denial of the Trinity. He thought his best bet lay in facing a court in Geneva because of the opposition to Calvin there. Calvin was called as the chief prosecution witness and gave evidence against him. It would be a strange day when a chief prosecution witness was also the judge, jury and executioner would it not? We are not discussing Calvin but scripture? And scripture says that we are held responsible for bearing false witness. With respect I suggest you get more infomation on this subject before blindly rushing to judgement. 1 John 3:15. The sword has two edges. 5a. This is answered in number 1. 5b. Do you then seperate Christ from the desciption of Himself in the bible? That's clever. What doctrine is taught in scripture is what should be believed. How can you have Jesus without doctrine, tell me how? I believe my Jesus is taught in scripture where does yours come from? If you say scripture then bring your proofs and I will show you that you are wrong. johnp.

Hello Dime. I must go out. I will reply later. Thanks. johnp

Bob. I have to go out now. See you later mate. We are brothers lets find out our Father. That's all that counts. johnp

Hello Qun Mang. It's as I said, it is not that we all do sin, it is that we all are sin. As we are we do, so what we are is the problem not what we do. Yes I know what you mean. But it is deluding yourself because He remembers as if it was now. You might have thought you have made up for it and He is less wrathful now but He never was wrathful to you. He loves you and you behave as if He don't. You give Him time to cool down like I used to when I was a kid and I was in trouble with my dad! If He was wrathful saying sorry now is of no help, you should have been sorry before you did what you did. Unless a person accepts the free gift of forgiveness there is no sorry for sin. And I am sure you have. You are born again if you have been to Jesus for the forgiveness of sins. You must accept that He has forgiven you your sins. That is faith and faith alone saves. You have the faith now use it. Apply it in believing He forgave you. And when you come to realise that even your repentance needs to be repented of you will be free. Absolutely right. Now He wants you to tell Him what you are like so that He can purify you and clean you up. You can't do that it is stronger than you, If you could Jesus died for nothing, it has your will at it's beck and call. It drives you. Jesus is going to destroy it. You look at yourself, look to Jesus. You know what you are like. He knows what you are like. But He says He loves you anyway regardless of what you are like. Regardless of what you do because what you do was taken into account when He died for you. He loves you and forgives you. It is not sidetracking the thread because this is the heart of the gospel. It is to do with faith and that has everything to do with us. It cover every part of our lives. Romans Rom 7:24-8:2 So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. Let us face Him as Father not judge. I am sorry it is a bit rushed at the end. I have to go out. See you later. johnp

Bob. Oi! Who says I sin? Anyway, you tell me not to speak like a Calvinist then tell me I seem to be avoiding the subject! You have constrained my answers Bob. Here is part of the reply waited on. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails... 1 Cor 13:4-8. And I believe Him when He says this to me. I believe Him. There is no guilt now for what we have done or will do! Jesus took our guilt away on the cross for some reason. When we feel a guilty conscience God is showing us our sin to the degree that He has decided. At the moment I have no guilty conscience. Either I have sheared it or I am ok with Him, who knows the answer to that one? Jesus died for my sin. I carry on as normal but I don't think for a second I am holy in and of myself. I am a sinner. Why repent before you are ready? That would be a lie and self deception with the greatest of respect Bob. That is what I was saying, He does not want you to repent but be honest. What you have is fear trying to deflect a wrathful God and that is not what He is to you. He loves you and is patient and kind. This must be true because you think you can go to Hell after you have been forgiven. For what sin then? Jesus died for your sins. You disbelieve that. Then you live in fear, the expectation of judgement and you think you are so sinful even Jesus don't like you. That is sin. You don't feel guilty about calling God a God of wrath when He says He loves you, why not? I repent when He gives me the ability to do it properly in love and respect and then it is nice because He loves us. If there is fear in me I will not repent. It would be a waste of time and worse. I feel fear sometimes but it is just forgetting for a moment that anyone could love me with this completeness, this total dedication. I am not my own, I belong to another and He belongs to me. When I feel fear that I am not doing enough or loving enough or good enough I realise that my faith has somehow switched itself off. I just flick it back on. I believe He died for my sins. Because I know I am not good enough or doing enough or loving enough and I thank God I know I am not. I will wait but I will tell Him what I have been doing and ask Him to purify me from such and such if He chooses to, if it upsets Him. I can't do it myself I am not strong enough to lift the weight Jesus put on His shoulders for me. I don't know what is worser? Where do I start, with the thing that causes me the most grief or the thing that causes Him the most grief? Will that do for now? I will be a bit busy today so bear with my slowness. Well that not very nice of you is it? To blame me for what you will do! God bless. johnp