caughtinside

Grungekid may have been referring to a possible thread on how Mormons view Protestants. Couldn't tell from the post--in any case the existing Absurdism thread and the potential for the other thread are both on the table. Personally I'm glad of the recent lull on the boards--it's been a very busy past few days. I bought makings for pasta sauce almost a week ago, and every night I've had to put it off again! It's already 10 pm here, so it won't be tonight. (Should at least sautee up the mushrooms...Argh, hate wasting good food... ) I was also going to add some personal perspective to the Absurdism thread, but that's going to have to wait too. I'm spent! G'night

Yes, or at least they can't conclude logically that there is. So, "Why bother" would be a nagging impulse. Right, like the guy who surprises himself by risking himself for someone else. Or by exercising faith in God, like Kierkegaard. They either find meaning in the absurdity, or in spite of it. "When the rubber hits the road" kind of thing. Like in the line from a Who song--"I got values but I don't know how or why." Looks good to me! It's absurd to one of the person's way of looking at it, and yet, in another way, they say "this is what I do." Even if the meaning is simply found in the journey. That might be a ray of hope in the Hitchhiker books..... glory, I hope it's the good kind of headache?

How absurd! Pretty deep stuff from a five-year-old!

I understand what it is but....where are you trying to go with this? Is your point that there is no meaning of life or.....I don't get the relevance here. If there were NO meaning to life, the nihilist wouldn't have run into the burning building. Especially after he saw the absurdity of it. I mean, he being a nihilist! That's where I would like to go with this, to promote absurdism over nihilism. For all the nihilists that frequent this forum. I think this started with us talking about "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy", which I hope has something more than abject nihilism at its core. Absurdism, to me, is like a different way to react to the conclusion that the universe has no ultimate meaning. It's like saying, "Okay, and yet..." And yet the guy runs into the burning building. Maybe if we only lived in the intellectual world, we would all be nihilists, but humans are very emotional. I suspect that even our beliefs are strongly based in our emotions, not just our intellect. Grungekid, perhaps that's the crucial difference you were talking about--faith (emotion?) is lacking in one but not the other. I'm going to have a go through Ecclesiastes before I get back here! A parting classroom anecdote: I have a class of kindergartners whose first language is Chinese and they've been in an immersion English program for about six months. A few days ago, two of my students were getting things out of their lockers, one locker lower than the other, and one student bumped his head on the upper locker's door as he was standing up. He held his head and said to the other student, "What are we DOING?!"

Absurdism is a philosophy. The nihilist in the burning building was making a pun.

The subject of Absurdism came up in the "celebrities" thread, and I thought it might be interesting to discuss in a thread of its own. I put it in this sub-forum because I think a key difference between absurdism and nihilism is that the former is open to the possibility that there can be values and meaning in a human's life. I'm not sure if it's okay to pull other people's comments from one thread and paste them in another, so nebula and Grungekid, if this interests you and you'd like to repost your thoughts here, they'll be very welcome. Here's a thought I had. A nihilist runs into a burning building to save some people. As he does, he observes himself doing it and says, "This is absurd!" And yet, he does it. That, I think, is what Kierkegaard was getting at in the comment I posted in the other thread. Here it is again (Found on the Wikepedia article on absurdism, interesting read): What is the Absurd? It is, as may quite easily be seen, that I, a rational being, must act in a case where my reason, my powers of reflection, tell me: you can just as well do the one thing as the other, that is to say where my reason and reflection say: you cannot act and yet here is where I have to act... The Absurd, or to act by virtue of the absurd, is to act upon faith ... I must act, but reflection has closed the road so I take one of the possibilities and say: This is what I do, I cannot do otherwise because I am brought to a standstill by my powers of reflection. All comments on absurdism, nihilism, etc. welcome. caughtinside

Hi Grungekid, I'm going to start a thread where we can compare absurdism and nihilism (and whatever else that pops up). I was exposed to absurdist literature in college, but that was a while back. I've had to surf around and read up on it--so with that caveat... by the way, I read in another thread you were thinking about asking a Mormon questions about how they see non-Catholic religions. I grew up Mormon, even did the two-year mission , so if you feel like starting a thread, I'd be happy to answer questions.

Here's something interesting. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080329/ap_en_...E3Sr6Z0XC6mG78C nebula, I'll get back to you soon. Maybe in a new thread. Suddenly I want to go read the books again! AND watch Fight Club again!

Hey nebula, Absurdism isn't the shut-down on meaning and purpose that nihilism is. In "Hitchiker's" you do find nuggets of values, ethical statements, etc., so I see it more as an absurdist work. Here is how Kierkegaard described it: What is the Absurd? It is, as may quite easily be seen, that I, a rational being, must act in a case where my reason, my powers of reflection, tell me: you can just as well do the one thing as the other, that is to say where my reason and reflection say: you cannot act and yet here is where I have to act... The Absurd, or to act by virtue of the absurd, is to act upon faith ... I must act, but reflection has closed the road so I take one of the possibilities and say: This is what I do, I cannot do otherwise because I am brought to a standstill by my powers of reflection. I know what nihilism is, I was wondering about your thoughts on the nihilism of "Hitchhikers." This time it's my turn to be sorry for the confusion!

Earlier you said he wrote it while in a drunken stupor. Did he get the inspiration for it in a stupor, or write it while in a stupor? Absurdism and nihilism are often bedfellows, to be sure. I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on the nihilism. I'm not doubting you, but the stories have quite a few levels and I'm not sure the ultimate message is nihilistic. I admit it has been a long time since I read them. Hey is the weekend upon us AGAIN?

Hi nebula, My first thought is that I'd want to be careful not to pass judgement when I don't have enough information. What book are you referring to? This is the problem with this thread. It's inviting us to pass judgement on all these people. This person had peace, or purpose, or value, because of this or that, but this person didn't, because of this or that. I don't know, do you really feel comfortable with this? I'm a leeetle embarrassed that I let myself get pulled into that game, so I'm going to cut my losses and pull out now. Wait, not yet--I started reading a book called "Mountains Beyond Mountains", about Paul Farmer and the work he's done in Haiti and beyond, and I think the guy is a true hero. Perhaps we can all agree on that. Peace out

Dave Barry the humor columnist? Kurt Vonnegut Jr? A millionaire? What did he give up? For what cause? Isaac Asimov? Andy Rooney? Douglas Adams? Berkeley Breathed? Sagan? They won awards and accolated, were able to afford university education, lived cushy lives, and earned millions. Dalai Lama? Respected by most, faced no oppostion, born into monarchy, growing up in places. How do they compare? I guess I misunderstood where you were going with this. You addressed the thread to atheists, compared a shamelessy cherry-picked group of celebrities with tragic stories to three iconic social heroes, and asked, whaddya think? Why did you address atheists if your point was that those three had causes that they believed in? All of the people I listed have been inspiring in their own way, they all had or have purpose, and I really don't know what to say about that article you linked to. You know what lady, my interest in dialogue with you has dropped below zero. Sorry.

Well, I'm not sure I would include Mother Teresa. He certainly doesn't fit into artsylady's cherry-picked list of people who fizzled hard. Going beyond such extreme examples, it does get a bit tricky for us to decide on the quality of others' lives. Adams did have a tough love life. But he also lived a productive life, advocated for the environment, and was well-respected. So, who can say?

Grungekid, I only saw the movie once, but I did notice the nihilism you write about. Could there be a glimmer of hope in how Norton's character put the gun to his head and pulled the trigger--not a suicide attempt but an attempt to kill off that nihilistic part of himself?

from http://media.www.tuftsdaily.com/media/stor...n-1489558.shtml "I am an atheist," Rooney said. "I don't understand religion at all. I'm sure I'll offend a lot of people by saying this, but I think it's all nonsense."

Hey Alan, now it's my turn for a delay. I see what you're saying about guilt for wrongdoing--people certainly aren't doing things in order to get a guilty feeling! On the flipside, what about people who do acts of kindness. It feels good to do good to others. So is Paul saying that no one was behaving selflessly, helping others, being generous, etc.? In which case a different function of the spirit would be at work (Galatians 5).

Wow! That's the seem reason I find christians arrogant: their firm belief that they are somehow better or more moral than I am, and that it is somehow required that I share their belief in THEIR GOD. I believe "I know there IS a god" is incorrect just as you feel "I know there is no god" is incorrect. Between the two of you, you just said a mouthful!

Hi Arthur, More accurately it means "without knowledge", but close enough. Once we start parsing these words out they mushroom out of control! And make mine an espresso and you're on. I'll get the next one.

Hey Grungekid, Did your friend say why he thought it was impossible? Me, I don't see any guarantees in any path, but certainly possibilities.

Hi artsylady, You sure know how to stack the deck, don't you? Consider Dave Barry, Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., Isaac Asimov, Andy Rooney, Douglas Adams, Berkeley Breathed, Carl Sagan, and the Dalai Lama. Not really sure what you mean by 'purely materialistic and evolutionary terms, they certainly do or did "have it all"'. Seems like that encompasses quite a bit. Can you expand on that?

Arthur, I think you have me confused with someone else. For starters, I agree with Flew. It could be. I'm agnostic and I'm happy to entertain the possibilty that there's something out there. I have my doubts but I sure don't know, and I never claimed to. As for the human race? I'm pretty ambivalent about it, if that's what you're looking for. By the way, I was hoping you'd recognize the old child's game. Your proper response was supposed to be: Caughtinside (or -OffSide, whatever) - 0; Swinburne/McGrath/D'Souza - infinity! See, and then you would've won. Ease up a bit, bro.

No way man. Swinburne, McGrath, D'Souza - 0; Caughtinside - ONE MILLION!

Arthur, who are you replying to and what are you talking about?

Hi Alan, hope your weekend is going well. So, is Paul saying that God's spirit didn't visit any of the Jews or Gentiles? And don't worry about delays, they're a-ok.

Please don't tell me you guys believe what you do because this scenario scares you!