nonameleft

I hope you did not take my reply as a personal attack. It was not meant to be one at all. We are discussing tattoos ... No, I did not take it as personal. I had a thought or two, but now I see I am making doubtful disputations and going the wrong direction. I'm sorry about that. I shouldn't have brought up those verses. But I did look and there are no verses I could find that directly state tattoos are OK.

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Hasn't the passage from Leviticus been dealt with already? Yes it has IMO. If I am understanding OneLight correctly, he is not asking about that passage but rather asking if there is a 'positive' passage. Maybe these can be considered as positive passages, or as stated exceptions to Leviticus: (I'll toss it out for thought anyway) Eze 9:4 (mark in forehead) An "inkhorn" is not a needle that would leave a scar, but rather something that can be removed. Rev 9:4 (mark in forehead) This is of God, not man ... and it is His seal, not a tattoo. These may not be an acceptable fit, but if taken literally a mark is a mark, but the best permission is Romans 14:14, in fact all of Romans 14. Maybe if it is a Godly mark it's OK. Or if it is a pagan mark, not OK. If God so hates a mark, why would he cause it to be done? Why even figuratively? And where does it say in Leviticus that they should not make a "nonremovable" mark on their bodies? I think the same standard of being strictly literal in interpretation for Leviticus should be then applied to all other verses. However one is interpreting scripture it should be consistent.

This was written of Jesus himself: Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written Kings of Kings and Lords of Lords

Hasn't the passage from Leviticus been dealt with already? Yes it has IMO. If I am understanding OneLight correctly, he is not asking about that passage but rather asking if there is a 'positive' passage. Maybe these can be considered as positive passages, or as stated exceptions to Leviticus: (I'll toss it out for thought anyway) Eze 9:4 (mark in forehead) Rev 9:4 (mark in forehead) These may not be an acceptable fit, but if taken literally a mark is a mark, but the best permission is Romans 14:14, in fact all of Romans 14. Maybe if it is a Godly mark it's OK. Or if it is a pagan mark, not OK. If God so hates a mark, why would he cause it to be done? Why even figuratively?

I hope that none of us judges the other person with a tattoo as a sinner based on the Levitical law, especially in the instance of a Christian getting a tattoo, when the reason for getting the tattoo clearly has nothing to do with paganism. Some might feel that way? I have worked in Evangelism and revivals since 1990. Not entirely from a pulpit, but out on the streets and in homes. My best results have been teaming with a group of "rough" looking people, some with tattoos and piercings, and almost looking like gang members. We work with people in the inner city and in the conservative suburbs both. We have brought hundreds to Christ and once doubled the size of our church in two years. When God goes with you not even tattoos and piercings can stop you. It's your witness of caring, honesty, zeal, and a passion for the message of Christ. Sometimes a well-dressed sheltered and possibly timid person is just too frail and closed-mouthed to get the job done. I'll take a person with a passion for Christ covered with tattoos any day, and together we will get to work. This was a very mixed church in all ways. I however have no tattoos because I am chicken.

Yes, Jim Jones. Thanks for the correction. As you can see I am wrong a lot of the time.

I don't mean any disrespect. You can quote all the Bible all you want to, and just because the youth leader said it, it has to be true? There is therefore no point in the discussing if we proceed like that. I need a copy of the youth leader's teachings. My Bible is no help to me. I'll just let him tell me what to think without question or discernment? Bob Jones controlled many with that viewpoint. Nearly all of his unquestioning followers are dead of suicide. Maybe they should have also read their own Bible and sought the actual truth. That is an extreme case, but all of us are wrong sometime.

A reply to what Adarian said: If you are under the law, abide by Leviticus. Do you eat only Kosher meat? Did you shave your beard? Is your hair worn that way? Are we really supposed to? When Christ fulfilled the law, the law was abolished. Paul said we are not under the law. Especially touch not, taste not. That shows that most of the Levitical law is void now. If the tattoos are Satanic symbols or marks for the dead, or occult, that's what I understand in Leviticus. These are things in other religions and would be banned because of being worship of another religion. I am without doubt that Christ does not care whether we have marks on the body, unless they are pagan or Satanic.

Before I write anything, I want to state that I am not implying or stating that anyone who posted in this thread is in disagreement with what I am writing below. It's just that in reading the posts here, this comes to mind, and I think should be said. A tattoo is not sin. A tattoo does not defile "the temple". God never said he had a problem with painting a picture on your temple. Sin defiles the temple, and nothing else. So, a tattoo would have to be sin before it could defile the temple in the first place. The defile the temple argument is used a lot to make things be sin that really are not. Paul, who wrote I Corinthians where the defile the temple verses are found, also explained what he meant with this: In chapter 3, he is talking about good works vs bad works and not about taking care of your body. In chapter 6 he is talking about fornication. It is very clear that all Paul meant was that sin, or bad works, defiles the body. God does not dwell in sin. The temple in the Old Testament always had to be sprinkled with water for cleansing when the sin-tainted priest entered. If you do sin, then both you (the priest) and (you) the temple must be cleansed- confess, repent. You cannot use the verses to justify calling something a sin when the Bible does not clearly name the act as a sin. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that you must take care of the body that God has given you. That is contrived by man's logic. God's ways are higher than our ways, and his thoughts are higher than our thoughts. If God did not say it, we must stop forcing things to be wrong, making new commandments to obey. Our own possibly flawed reasoning might imagine that God views a tattoo as grafitti. God is much more concerned that you not sin than what you eat, drink, wear, or possibly paint your body with. You could go to church in a clown's suit and God would not mind, but you might disrupt the service and the effect of God's word being preached. Words of Christ: Matthew 15:17-20 "Do you not yet understand that whatsoever enters in at the mouth goes into the belly, and is cast out into the drought? But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart, and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man." *** Not once was any adornment mentioned. To some, the arguments of "defile the temple" and taking care of the body that God has provided us with would be in conflict with these words of Christ. If we did not wash our hands and got sick with germs, did we sin by not taking care of the body that God gave us? We should not add our own reasoning and possibly flawed logic to God's word. God has been very specific about what the sins were. *** If a minister of a congregation had a large tattoo of a snake on his face, not many of his words would be heard, because all attention would be on the tattoo. Possibly many would immediately leave the building. If a shirt covered his tattoo, what would it matter? However if you were involved in an evangelistic outreach to youth who already had tattoos, or bikers with tattoos you might actually get their respect and their ears. You have to judge your own situation. Paul would agree with this because he said "I was all things to all men." But he also stated not to use your "liberty" in a way that would cause your weaker brother to err. God could definitely use a tattooed person in his ministry. Just my 1 1/2 cents.

OneLight, Amen. I am agreeing with this, especially the "silent", and there is also a place for spoken corporate prayer. Your words describe a lot of wonderful gifted but humble Christians I have known. For a person who is comparing prayer results and wanting to get better results themselves, they have to work on their own relationship with God. The Pharisee metaphor is a word of caution when some seem to be promoting themselves too much. It can seem that their results are a lot better than they really are. Comparing results can be misleading. Every situation is different. But it is very good to desire to do better.

Isn't it sort of backward that the "prayer warrior" is the one people turn to for prayer instead of one turning himself to God in prayer? Isn't it kind of Pharisee-like? A choice: Go to your closet to pray or be seen as a mighty prayer warrior? Can you see who is getting undue credit here? I am not saying that you should not have people to pray for you. If the prayer was answered, God answered it, and it was not man's abilty or prowess. Remember the error of Baalim. There is no prescription or ritual for prayer. One person makes a need known to God and without telling God how he is demanded and expected to meet the need (God is master and not servant- not a genie in a bottle to bow to our commands). He will answer according to his will. There is scripture that says that God knows our requests before we pray. So are we going to manipulate him by what ritual or words we say? He knows our hearts and our words do not deceive him. If you have actually found a way to be close to God you will be in constant prayer and communication with God as though he was walking beside you. It will be silent and constant with humility and respect and not like a pharisee to be seen as mighty by men. It will be praise much more than request. When it is request, it is for the well being of others more than for self. I think though that your perception of "answered" prayer is in the result being that the wish is granted. The genie was made to perform. They want a new car, but if they received a free ride to work every day, the prayer wasn't answered? My father had cancer of the lung many long years ago, and in his final days he was gasping for air and said he couldn't take it any more. He was ready to die. For his sake I prayed that the Lord comfort him and end the misery according to his will, even if it meant death. My father died in ten minutes. Another person rebuked Satan and claimed the promise of healing and my father still died. Of those two, which person's prayer was answered? We are spoiled brats in our Father's house, demanding our own way and in fear of everything. We ask for the lusts of the flesh when we should ask for faith. Our walk is erratic and turned on and off like a light switch. We turn it on when we want something from God. If we are dying, we are afraid of death (you will rise again to a world without evil- why want to be here?), and we find 100 people to pray for us. Could we instead pray for forgiveness, for more closeness to God, for more faith and no fear of death. Pray for faith to trust God that death will not hurt us. To know that the ultimate healing is the ressurection. To have the faith to be able to continue to walk with God even in homelessness, and poverty, even without an automobile. When praying, don't rebuke Satan as some do. Have no conversation with him. It just shows your fear of him. Resist Satan and he will flee from you. In other words keep God's commandments. The words of rebuke in prayer are only the words of a clown if you are not walking the walk. Actions are truth, words are not necessary. Faith protects you from all harm. People want so many things and the only important things are salvation, faith, love, and a closeness to God. God told Paul "My grace is sufficient for you." I guarantee that this one request is always answered with a yes, and if you have that you have everything.